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FOB Overrun Mechanic & Meta Adjustments

Wookie404Wookie404 Member Posts: 4 Civilian

I've been playing this game since December 2015 with a silly amount of hours, a few minor adjustments to make the FOB/match meta flow better. At this stage in the game development, I tried to think of adjustments that come down to tweaking variables over creating new mechanics.

1) The Overrun mechanic - original intent of this thing was to prevent the old spawn camping/meat grinder FOBs prior to it's implementation. However, the name of the mechanic doesn't mesh with what it does ..... right now two guys could be hiding on the other side of a wall or on top of a hill from a FOB defended by 10+ people and trigger an "overrun" which is just silly and makes it more necessary to spam the map with backup FOBs

Suggestion: Tweak the overrun mechanic to be on a "net basis" and not a "gross basis" .... basically make it a two factor check to where the enemy has to both outnumber the friendly players in the proximity radius as well as have the total needed for the overrun. It just seems silly right now that two guys could theoretically "overrun" 40 people.

Example:

Attacker has 9 players inside the radius.... Defender has 8 players. Overrun Triggered

Attacker has 8 players inside the radius..... Defender has 8 players. No Overrun Triggered

2) HAB Spam economy - This one is simple, the easiest way to reduce FOB spam is to increase the cost of the HAB considerably (hell I'd say 1000 construction)...... right now I can turn the match into a tower defense game and build 6 habs with one logi (silly). IMO, expanding the radius just leads to breaking smaller maps and getting SLs pissed off at each other for building in the wrong place. (If FOBs are buffed marginally via my first suggestion, this can be balanced by making it more difficult to build multiple via supply cost)

3) Pacing - Right now there are complaints about the game being fast paced..... now without tweaking running speed or inducing Michael J Fox levels of sway. Two minor suggestions below:

Increase the re-spawn timers very slightly ... say start with +30 seconds, this will make the battlefield more elastic overall and give wait to winning engagements and add some more perceived value to player lives.

Parkour adjustments - I think everyone is on the same page that the parkour is a bit over the top (pardon the pun). Some simple tweaks could be made here slow it down without rewriting everything......

First make it to where after x amount of time I can't grab a ledge (e.g. jumping between windows on Basra).

Second, if the object being vaulted is above the players head...... slow down the animation considerably and put a sizeable drain on stamina.

Third, just slow down the vaulting animation across the board .... sprinting and timing it right I basically become an Olympic hurdler in game right now.

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Comments

  • istrikeri49istrikeri49 Member Posts: 9 Civilian

    I certainly have to agree that since the new HAB changes the game is not as much fun to play. I get what they are trying to do with the HAB changes, but it just seems to have made playing the game worse. It's possible it may just take time for SLs to figure out the "New Meta" but the problem is SLs hardly communicated to begin with and now they have to even more, that sort of thing just doesn't work for casual players. I have seen more steam rolls since the HAB changes then ever before and certainly won't take long for players to figure out all they need to do is send out one Fire Team with a Combat Engineer\Sapper and you can easily take out the majority of the enemy HABs because there is 1. Less HABs. 2. It is no longer viable to have a HAB on a defense Objective because of the Radius change. Making them more spread out so if you lose one, it's a BIG loss. So now you have to coordinate 1. Offense Push, 2. Offensive Flank, 3. Offensive HAB 4. Objective Defense, 5. Defensive Counter, 6. Defensive HAB Defense 7. Logistics, 8. Armor which like stated before is just not sustainable in casual game play, because just one of these things fails you get steam rolled. The snowball affect is very real with the changes.


    This is not to say that there are not exceptions. One Pro to the changes is that attackers really only have 1 attack HAB, so one A-10, there goes the attackers and now the tides have turned until the attack HAB is backup making for some fun\stressful back and forth.


    I certainly do not have the answer to these fixes, maybe make it so that the commander can "Lock HABs" and make it to where you can only have a total of 4 or 5 unlocked HABs. This would give the commander more control over what he wants his team to do but prevent the mass wave of players from all directions. IDK this is just a thought I had while writing this. I can also see that if these changes stay Rallies just being used more. They have a 10m radius no matter the amount of people around, but this also has the con of squads working more independently defeating the entire purpose of the game.


    All in all I get the changes, but they have made my personal experiences playing the game worse. So I think a big a challenge for the DEVs is to figure out whether they want a game how they want it or how the community wants it, and the most fair answer is probably somewhere in-between.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    I say, ditch the entire fob proxy thing. It's just stupid. So a battle of a fob turns into a meat grinder, so what? That would obviously mean that the SL's that are defending the fob have decided it is MASSIVELY important and have decided to just keep tossing bodies at it and losing the fob might literally risk the entire game. If they felt it was better for the fob to be lost, they'd tell their team to stop spawning there and let it go.


    Case in point... You have just steam rolled the other team and are moving in on their last point. The game is going your way, but you left your previous fobs unguarded. The enemy snuck around the map and one by one removed all your other fobs. THEN, the enemy started attacking your one last attack fob on the last point. They are giving it all they have because they are bleeding tickets due to the retarded ticket bleed system. You are now realizing, if you lose this last fob, they will in turn steam roll you all the way back to your main because it's a huge map and you simply can't recover in time. Because you initially steam rolled them, you have tons of tickets, so you tell your entire team to keep spawning at that fob and defend it with their life until the end because you KNOW they are low on tickets (again, because of the retarded ticket bleed system.) So it turns into a meat grinder, and probably a smart one at this stage of the game. In the current system, this scenario would not play out. What would play out is that the other team will proxy your fob, and you're screwed. As soon as the fob becomes disabled, your entire time will realize they are about to get steam rolled as they respawn back at main, and they will be pissed off and pretty well lose hope and stop trying. If that one fob goes down, the game is pretty well over and nobody has any fun. And don't forget, not only can the fob be proxied so easily, you also can't defend it worth anything because the cost to build things is wayyyyyy to high, and it takes too many shovels to actually build something, and they can all be destroyed so easily.


    And if you argue that "people won't listen and will keep spawning on a fob if it can't be disabled, that's why OWI put in proxy thing," then solve it a different way. Give the commander the ability to nurf a fob somehow. Maybe give him in the ability to limit how many can spawn on a fob a time, or maybe limit what squad can spawn on it, or let him disable fob spawning entirely.


    It's like OWI spent so much time trying to stop the meat grinder affect that they nurfed the entire game and didn't look at other solutions. They tried to solve the problem the wrong way. If you don't want the meat grinder affect, make it easier to defend the fob! Meat grinder happens because it's impossible to defend a fob with the current tools versus what the enemy can do, so the best way to defend is to toss bodies at it. If sandbags, razor wire, 50cal emplacements, bunkers and the likes couldn't be taken out in a second with mortars, and they didn't cost so much to build and could ACTUALLY get built up, then SL's could ACTUALLY build things that protect the fob so that people can spawn and leave the fob without getting shot. Hesco walls are fantastic to set outside the entrance of a fob to give protection, but come on, 400 build points and like 20 shovel digs to set it up? Forget it, might as well just jump in the logi and go build a backup fob somewhere else.


    Stop trying to fix the fob issues with stupid radius stuff (radius to build, radius to proxy.) Start fixing the fob issues by actually making it fun to build things to defend the fob THAT ACTUALLY WORK!


    My three most hated things about this game:

    1) Radius to proxy a fob/radio.

    2) Radius to control how many radios you can put down.

    3) Ticket bleed that causes your team to stop planning and go all guns-a-blazing once you start losing tickets just because you don't control the center of the map. Impending loss/death has a way of making you not care about the game any more when you realize you honestly have no chance at a comeback. Some of my most memorable games came when the point difference between the two teams were only 10 points apart and the game took a long time (which hardly happens now because of the ticket bleed system.)

  • tzaerutzaeru Member Posts: 36

    The constructables do not work, they are the exact opposite of working. HESCOs and sandbags just tell the enemy where to look at for potential targets. A HAB that has been enclosed by the enemy is not going to save itself by having more constructables around it. They will only make it even harder for the defenders to leave.

    Even if defenses were half cheaper and were twice faster to build, they would be counter-productive against enemies who know what they're doing.

    Personally I like the HAB overrun mechanic. It's just really fun to sneak to an enemy HAB from behind the lines and close it off. It makes the game more dynamic and rewards long flanking.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    Totally disagree with you. You are looking at fortification through the eyes of the stupid proxy to disable system.

  • tzaerutzaeru Member Posts: 36

    Not at all. I've played the game a long time and fortifications just haven't been very useful at any time. There were a few particular points where you could close the enemy almost completely out of the point with a superfob, but even those were the exception.

    The main problem of the fortifications is not the proxy system, nor even parkour, nor even being destroyable.

    The main problem is that fortification show where your FOB are; they make it harder to leave your HAB; and they show the enemy where to look at for potential targets. People proning behind sandbags are just free targets for someone sitting in a bush 200 meters off.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    >The main problem is that fortification show where your FOB are; they make it harder to leave your HAB; and they show the enemy where to look at for potential targets. People proning behind sandbags are just free targets for someone sitting in a bush 200 meters off


    I get what you are saying regarding the fob being found easier when you build it up, but here's the thing, it's MY choice if that's how I want to build the fob. With the stupid proxy system, I have no choice. The enemy finding the fob can disable it so easy now, so the only solution is to try and make it as hidden as possible and put as many of them on the map as possible. If the proxy system didn't exist, then it is FULLY MY CHOICE how I deploy which includes if I want to build up defenses. If I feel that a secret fob is important and the way to go, then I can do that. If I feel it's important to build it up, then I will do that. CHOICES are what is important here, and the proxy system is basically removing the choice because the incentive to deploy anything beyond the fob and an ammo crate has been dropped to nothing. And don't forget, building out a fob or not, the enemy commander comes along with a drone and they will find your fob regardless of how hidden you make it.


    I tell you what would flesh all this out to show what the community likes is server-side configurations and a server browser that can filter on it. I've been begging for this for years. Let the server admins control the hab build and the hab proxy distances on the server (among the many things that would also be fun to control) and then let the community play. If the community finds one type of game play better, those servers will prevail. I don't understand why we have to try and have a one-size-fits-all game? Some people like hard core and would like the one-life-to-live type of game with no ralley points. Others would like all the nurfing options turned on, maybe because they are new to the game. Give the community more options on the style of game play and sit back and watch which type of game play becomes the most popular.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    Had a great game last night, probably one of the best in a long time. The map we were playing had a lot of cap points on it so we were able to contest the center 4 points without the retarded ticket bleed system kicking in. This allowed for actual, non-rushed game-play by both sides. On our defense fob, I built the snot out of it, spending over 6000+ build points, putting up hesco walls, sandbags, razor wire, emplacements. That all helped us defend really well against 3 different waves of attacks including an MBT trying to take us out. The ONLY time we actually lost it is when the enemy got close enough to proxy the hab. We almost lost the entire thing on a massively built up fob because of the stupid proxy system, not because of an actual coordinated attack by the enemy. Fortunately we had a BTR in the area and it came back and took care of them, thereby re-activating the fob again so we could get back to defending. It was insane that a few guys just walking close enough could almost take down a fob that was built up this much.


    One other thing... after I built the fob up this much, we no longer had people running away from the defense point we were on and leaving it un-defended. I noticed a lot of the players liked hanging out and flipping between the various emplacements to look around and enjoy sitting there joking around with each other. I also noticed that every time I dropped something to build, someone would stick around to build it. I think this only goes to show the enjoyment a lot of guys have with staying and defending if there is "something" to do when not being attacked. They like to be a part of building something. In every game I play, there are always guys that like the lower key action of building and will happily stick around in a defensive posture if a fob is actively being built up. It is often the newer guys to the game because they find the slower pace job of shoveling a nice way to get introduced to the game and get their bearings. Those same guys often learn useful information from the SL because the SL can actually answer questions while he's running around dropping buildables. If you don't build anything, if you just place a hab and an ammo crate and nothing more, then the guys get super bored if there isn't an attack coming and they move on to the attack objective. When that happens, then the defensive point goes un-defended, you get back capped and then the game goes down the toilet and nobody enjoys the game any more.


    I remain strong in my feelings that the hab proxy system destroyed the game, that the ticket bleed system is causing for shorter games that are rushed with little planning, building fobs out can be useful and enjoyable, and the cost to build things is WAY to expensive (both build points and amount of shoveling.) I personally ran the logi to supply this fob over 5 or 6 times just to get enough supplies to build anything useful. It should not require that amount of build points to build something big enough to adequately defend it, given how easy it is for the enemy to take it out.

  • Wookie404Wookie404 Member Posts: 4 Civilian

    My suggestion isn't removal of the overrun mechanic, but it does need some adjustment for both realism and gameplay. I find it very silly that a FOB defended by 20+ people can be "overrun" by two guys hiding nearby in the radius without line of sight.... rewards game design "cheese" more than tactics IMO. My suggestion just makes it to where you'll need to break even on numbers to trigger the same mechanic.

  • EcchiRevengeEcchiRevenge Member Posts: 127 ★★

    Having a bunch of "defenders" sitting inside hab shouldn't mean anything.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    Had another game spoiled last night by the dumb fob proxy system. Tired of fobs going down so easily. What's the use in even building them up to defend when there are so many ways to destroy them. Why call them "Forward Operating Bases" at all? To me, a "base" is something that would be hard to take down, not something that two people can disable because they got close.


    The entire game, all I heard over squad chat was "get more fobs setup so we have backups." Yup, that's what we do now, fob spam to win a game.

  • EcchiRevengeEcchiRevenge Member Posts: 127 ★★
    edited August 9

    Enemies shouldn't be getting close since you're supposed to have people defending it.


    OWI tried to slow-boil the players by implementing these features one at a time(from dead-dead after reviving without medic...etc. to this) and it's doing bad things to gameplay, arguably worse than before(people going dead-dead + all that jank filter after revive just means they're more incentivized to giveup and respawn at nearby fob/rally).


    FOB overrun mechanic, in context of PR(the way it's meant to be played) is absolutely fine. But I'm pretty sure OWI forgot what else made it work - the fact that people lose their limited kits and have to request it off fobs(crates really, but that's usually on fobs since rallies are temporary spawns) and the fact that rallies are only permanent within certain radius of FOB (or apc, but nobody uses that feature; not sure if that even works).


    Basically, fob overrun radius changes isn't the problem; the problem is we don't have temporary rally(60s like in PR), loss of limited kit after death...etc. implemented. The "persistent ammo" mechanic actually makes no sense as FOB/rally are supposed to represent areas secured for reinforcement to arrive safely(as represented by playres spawning there).


    When(hopefully not "if") all of those mechanics are implemented, people will finally get the importance of fobs beaten into them, thus they will have to defend it - and if there's people defending it(properly, I understand that's difficult to ask for today), what you complained about would not have happened(at least not consistently).

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    I like what you wrote. If fobs operated like that, I agree, people would spend more time defending them. I'm sure there's more than one way to resolve the issue, but at least we agree that the mechanics, as they exist today, are not working and making the game play less enjoyable.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    I was thinking what you wrote here last night as I was playing, and you are totally right! If I lost my kit and my ammo every time I died and gave up, I would never just give up. I would also defend the fob harder than ever because of it because I'd need an ammo crate to get my kit back! Spawning on a rally wouldn't give me my kit back.

  • tzaerutzaeru Member Posts: 36

    Tbh I don't want to be defending a FOB. No one might attack it at all, so I might just end up sitting doing nothing for 15 minutes.

    Not fun.

    The overrun thing being a problem to players is kinda just continuation of old bad habits; not fanning out properly and not securing a large enough area.

    If people fanned out more, secured large amounts of area, and pushed the enemy aggressively enough, it'd be much less likely that two players have managed to sneak into the HAB to disable it.

  • EcchiRevengeEcchiRevenge Member Posts: 127 ★★

    That's your problem.


    Defending doesn't mean just sitting in one spot.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    tzaeru - Aug 11th

    Tbh I don't want to be defending a FOB. No one might attack it at all, so I might just end up sitting doing nothing for 15 minutes.

    Per my previous comments, a LOT of guys enjoy hanging out at a defensive fob and building things in case a fight does come to them. You may not be one, and that's fine, then switch to an attack squad. But for those guys that like a little slower game play (for example newbies,) being able to build things allows them to hangout, build, joke around a bit while they prepare for the big fight. Building up a defensive fob like this is enjoyable and beneficial to more gamers than you might think! The thing is though, few SL's do this because the deployables are almost no match for what the enemy can do, between air strikes, mortars and the evil, no good, absolutely bad fob proxy mechanics. As such, the focus of the commander and most SL's is not to have an entire squad wasting time building up a fob that can be taken out so easily, but instead to drop a radio/hab/ammo crate, and then load up and keep scattering the same fob setup all over the map. THAT is boring for an entire squad, because the guys do nothing but jump out, dig hab/ammo, get in, sit in a vehicle doing nothing, rinse/repeat. Eventually you get guys that are tired of it and just run-away from the squad, or leave the squad. Within short order, your squad is basically you plus one or two other guys being FOB Spammers all over the map. The entire fob mechanics need to change. With each version, instead of making fobs cool, and useful, they just do things to make them spawn points and no more, it's just insane!

  • EcchiRevengeEcchiRevenge Member Posts: 127 ★★

    Again it's not just sitting in one spot.


    There needs to be visible patrols and hidden ambush positions, not wait until enemy is inside overrun radius before responding.

  • 3S_Moe3S_Moe Member Posts: 36 ★★

    Totally agree. Reality however is something different.

  • EcchiRevengeEcchiRevenge Member Posts: 127 ★★

    Reality is this game doesn't have the mechanics to beat tactics into player's little heads.

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