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A Reply to Developer Z-Trooper on "gore" thread.

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This topic should be a direct response to: 

 

Posted 17 October 2014 - 04:24 PM

 


"If you want to be immersed you should probably listen to how the real life medic (Melbo) describes things, there isn't all the blood that Hollywood leads you to believe.
 
He has described some detailed first hand experiences with wounded soldiers. I can't think of a more qualified person to go by when it comes to accuracy on this.
 
Additionally gore is quite graphic and would limit where and to who we could sell the product legally.
 
We already have some test gore effects implemented, and I did not feel good after emptying a mag into a dummy soldier. It was neither glorious, cool or "awesome", it was a bit sobering especially when the models look like humans.
 

I used to be for some amount of gore, but I think that I am now firmly against - or very minimally for gore, for both personal and professional reasons." 

 

 

 

  • I am going to re-quote a part in his response. "We already have some test gore effects implemented, and I did not feel good after emptying a mag into a dummy soldier. It was neither glorious, cool or "awesome", it was a bit sobering especially when the models look like humans." 

 

  • As this game is aiming to be realistic i would say that one should not feel "good, or awesome," when seeing this effect on a realistic human model, but instead the opposite. Either disgusted, and or revolted. I think this is the whole point of immersing a player into this realistic tactical shooter. I shot someone while playing squad and heard their crying screams as they were killed, these screams then turned into hopeless sobbing. I was disgusted and became that much more immersed into squad. I felt more like i was actually in combat. It seems odd to me that the squad developers would add these gruesome sound effects into their game but are opposed to gore or blood. Or more than just a puff of dirt. 
 
  • I feel it would only be fair to the squad community to post some screenshots of the gore effect you have already implemented. It would be very interesting to see how people react and or think about the adding of that effect. 
 
  • Now i understand that this would limit to where you can sell the game legally. However i don't think that a country's restrictions, should restrict this game.   
 
  • All of what i have said in this post is out of respect. Squad developers, you guys are fuckin rocking and i have been waiting for your next shooter ever since PR. Thank you.

 

 

 

Thank you all for your Replies. I would like to mention that i do think turning this game into a gore fest would be wrong. However as stated by many, a bullet hole exit wound or some blood stain on the soldiers clothes with some added dust particle effects would be a nice touch. Maybe also being hit in the head should be an instant kill with no revival, as well as a bullet hole in the face.

Edited by aspillane789

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i don't think that a country's restrictions, should restrict this game.

 

It frankly doesn't matter what you think a country's restrictions would do, OWI isn't going to knowingly design something that would bar them from being able to sell their game to people in a country just because of gore effects.

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The prime offenders for censoring or banning gory games is Germany and my own homeland of Australia, both of which house sizable communities for Squad already. The risk of banning is quite low if they implemented gore, but it is still there, so from a business sense why even take the risk.

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I dont think the risk is that low, Military realistic setting + gore is a really bad combination, at least in germany,

 

And i really dont know why you need it for immersion. Does anybody really need it for immersion? When you saw most of the effects a hundred times its more for the giggles. And i want to play a game, yeah it should be immersive, but i dont need blood and gore all the time to really get into it. And in the end i really wont get disgusted by a game i plan to playing alot.

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I believe we should open this topic for discussion within our community, e.g. screenshots, demo for us to see and judge.

Maybe we could find a middle ground?

Having said that... I actually feel pretty bad playing with SVD shooting medics trying to get their buddies up... :(

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Having said that... I actually feel pretty bad playing with SVD shooting medics trying to get their buddies up... :(

 

Naaaah. That's the best time to pluck em'. :)

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I dont think the risk is that low, Military realistic setting + gore is a really bad combination, at least in germany

 

Not really, pretty much the opposite infact, you couldn't be more wrong. the german rating board tends to give realistic/tactic shooters an easier time. Rising Storm for example got an 18+ despite featuring very heavy gore, Arma has really noticeable blood effects and got a 16+, same for CS:GO. I do not think that limbs flying off would add to the experience, but the current little blood puff is really hard to notice and some more obvious decal on ragdolls wouldn't hurt. Non-germans apparently stil think that gore = banned in germany, but no, this is not true anymore.

It's not just tactic shooters, hell you can slice people in half in the Witcher 3, blow people to bits in Fallout 4 and even the new Mortal Combat got through the USK untouched. Blackops 3 Zombie Mode is included this year. All these examples I mentioned got a rating uncensored. The time of games being censored in germany for violence is mostly over.

What is a bad combo still however is gore + zombie hordes ( Dying Light, Dead Rising 3 ), but Military Shooters? No, there are safe. With it's current violence Squad is getting a 16+.

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More blood spray yes, I am all for that, or blood trails on the floor.  Gore probably not in the Squad universe. Of course when the emplaced 50cals come in... would be nice to remove heads and limbs.. but we know that will not happen. More spray would be beneficial on walls and floors.

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idc either way but since some guys mentioned immersion:

Soldiers getting rekt to bits by 50cals etc immersive? Yea.

Reviving a pile of gore back to life immersive or "just" a dude with a bleeding bullet hole in his forehead ? Nope

It adds immersion in X but subtracts in Y so the whole immersion argument is moot

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idc either way but since some guys mentioned immersion:

Soldiers getting rekt to bits by 50cals etc immersive? Yea.

Reviving a pile of gore back to life immersive or "just" a dude with a bleeding bullet hole in his forehead ? Nope

It adds immersion in X but subtracts in Y so the whole immersion argument is moot

You wouldn't be able to revive them, especially if hit by 50 cal emplacement..

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I would just like a little more "PUFF" when a soldier gets hit with a bullet, not blood, just dust popping off with the impact! 

I like this too. Dust comming off is very nice and not going to cause trouble to the devs. When you see those real war footage showing terrorist snipers shooting at american soldiers, all you can see is dust popping from the impaact.

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You wouldn't be able to revive them, especially if hit by 50 cal emplacement..

lol ok but then I dont see how kiddies camping emplacments and/or whoring rpg/ugl kits etc does not degrade gameplay

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it has nothing to do with immersion and country restrictions, gore is needed for an online FPS game for the simple fact that its how you tell that you hit the guy. battlefield has more gore but it also has hit markers, several other online fps games use the same thing. squad doesn't because 'hit markers' are considered too casual in the eyes of many and squad is going for the 'hardcore' setting. but imagine if there wasn't any gore because it offends all the princess's and babies on the forum?.. no one would know if they're hitting others ingame and there would be threads titled, 'we need more gore' 'using SVD, cant tell if im hitting anything' 'bullets dont rego m8' i mean its already hard to tell if you've hit a guy until he drops dead.. its a design thing. so again, not a realistic/immersion thing. judging by the rework of grass in screenshots, it sounds like they're doing a re-pass on things (actually hand making them this time, not just downloading free/cheap assets off the UE4 market place for quick prototyping) so i reckon gore will be upped a little more or possibly made a bit more obvious without increasing the gore itself so it doesn't upset the cry babies, color/gamma/gloss material changes etc. 

if you feel bad camping on a hilltop with an SVD shooting at medics, then don't shoot them, no one is going to think "haha scrub ur a noob, git gud".. if anyone notices, they'll just think you're letting other guys play a video game, you're not ruining their fun/night. instead, find and shoot other snipers or do general recon. this of course would be a different story if it was a competition match. shoot the medic and give away your position but stop the advance of a squad? no one 'feels bad' in a scrim or clan match, trust me. things get far more realistic. 

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lol ok but then I dont see how kiddies camping emplacments and/or whoring rpg/ugl kits etc does not degrade gameplay

It will be limited to fob i imagine, so you wont be able to put more that 2 down.

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Entry/exit wounds and blood on wall - YES!

 

Excessive Gore - only if it's realistic and toggleable

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I'd love to see gory effects. If you shoot something, you should get a response back. 

The pink puff now is already good, but I'd like to see the feedback of a grenade in a room with enemies. I know it is hard to a game company to make these decisions, but if I'm not mistaken, they can develop different levels of gore for different countries, can't they? Germany, for instance (s2 Deutschland!), if I'm not mistaken, there are different versions of many different games with reduced gore for the games sold there. 

 

I love playing as SL, after that I love playing as a medic. I know it will go under heavy changes in the future, so it would be fantastic to see wounds and feel the rush of seeing a soldier in pain or having his life threatened by that open wound next to his neck.

 

I know, I know, the next video is a real life and not a video game yada yada yada, but notice that there is blood running down his uniform and spreading around him on the ground (in this case, water).

 

 

 

 

It is not much but it would definitely add a lot of immersion to the game IMO.   

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Well, OWI could always do separate versions for "sensitive" countries, where there won't be any blood(or green blood). And for the free and liberal countries you would add blood(or toggle for blood) - SIMPLES!

 

Or if you OWI still just won't add it out of principle, maybe you could negotiate and allow small modification file from community that would be manually implemented and used for blood for the ones who really want it and ready to get dirty digging in game files for that sake?

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Every time we come around to this issue it gets raised that the addition of gore makes it difficult to get the game past censors in certain countries.

 

I'd suggest what the Total War series does. Sell a blood & gore DLC for a dollar that adds back all the blood effects, this is easy to then control access to these effects by country.

 

My personal opinion on this is that sanitising war in games is less respectful to those who've had to participate in conflict than portraying at least some element of the horrors of war. I know RO2 has given me far more genuine experiences (and occasionally sobering - it fucking should be, this is war we're playing at) due to the combination of visual gore, animations and audio. Seeing blood and hearing screams after you shoot someone should make you feel like war isn't actually something to aspire to. I feel that games serve a powerful role in this respect. Turning war into something sanitised where people just insta-ragdoll on death and there's no blood except for a puff that vanishes seems kind of demeaning, if we feel it's necessary to censor war to that degree for a game I feel we should just be playing a laser tag simulator.

 

-edit- Romagnolo's video is a perfect example. If there was some blood on clothing and small patches on ground or clouds in water that would really help immersion generally, as well as making the medic's job more engaging.

 

This is just my opinion of course.

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Well, OWI could always do separate versions for "sensitive" countries, where there won't be any blood(or green blood). And for the free and liberal countries you would add blood(or toggle for blood) - SIMPLES!

 

Or if you OWI still just won't add it out of principle, maybe you could negotiate and allow small modification file from community that would be manually implemented and used for blood for the ones who really want it and ready to get dirty digging in game files for that sake?

Highlighted the oxymoron :P

 

Look we are not a massive community, causing a rift in the community by releasing two versions of the game or adding something that would cause Squad to be viewed in a negative light would only hurt our community. What difference does gore make for us? Personally I would like it, however the cost to benefit ratio isn't there. This is something that needs to be a mod rather than a shipped feature.

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I'd love to see gory effects. If you shoot something, you should get a response back. 

The pink puff now is already good, but I'd like to see the feedback of a grenade in a room with enemies. I know it is hard to a game company to make these decisions, but if I'm not mistaken, they can develop different levels of gore for different countries, can't they? Germany, for instance (s2 Deutschland!), if I'm not mistaken, there are different versions of many different games with reduced gore for the games sold there. 

 

I love playing as SL, after that I love playing as a medic. I know it will go under heavy changes in the future, so it would be fantastic to see wounds and feel the rush of seeing a soldier in pain or having his life threatened by that open wound next to his neck.

 

I know, I know, the next video is a real life and not a video game yada yada yada, but notice that there is blood running down his uniform and spreading around him on the ground (in this case, water).

 

 

 

 

It is not much but it would definitely add a lot of immersion to the game IMO.   

Please read my previous post, that level of violence you described (i.e. blood decals on ragdolls and ground) won't get the game banned, probably not even an 18+. Back in 2006, maybe, not today. Non germans have a really outdated idea of german game censorship and always think of the worst examples from a decade ago.

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Look we are not a massive community, causing a rift in the community by releasing two versions of the game or adding something that would cause Squad to be viewed in a negative light would only hurt our community. What difference does gore make for us? Personally I would like it, however the cost to benefit ratio isn't there. This is something that needs to be a mod rather than a shipped feature.

 

I totally understand your concerns Sparc. But I feel if this was dealt with by a visual only DLC (the way Total War handles it - its totally user side so its only if the person has the DLC they see it) then there'd be no community split as both would be able to play together without there being any compatibility issues. I'm not going to restate my arguments on the gameplay enhancement and objections to sanitising gameplay again tho, my previous post on P1 kind of covers that.

 

-edit- from that Niklasgunner has said it would appear that the censorship debate may be more or less irrelevant now anyway...

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