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Please no raised weapon as default

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I personally as someone who is part of a realism unit, find this option very useful in ARMA 3, when getting ready to do a mission, when standing in line, patrolling, etc... This prevents people pulling the trigger by accident. It als gives a bigger immersion into the game, sets the game apart from the rest. People seem to forget Squad will be the successor of Project REALITY, and having this option is keeping true to reality. 

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I do think this should be considered. If a lowered weapon stance with its own key binding is too much (it doesn't have to be mandatory though, even in Arma most casual players don't use it despite the stamina benefits), it could instead just be a cosmetic animation. A cosmetic animation would only be a visual change, where after a minute without shooting or aiming down the sights the weapon is lowered (though still partially visible on screen) yet functions exactly the same in that when you click to fire, the weapon is instantly raised and instantly fires no differently than it does now. Even if it were a toggled state with an impact on gameplay, pressing the fire key should raise the weapon instantly as well, if not fire instantly. Whether purely cosmetic or a gameplay element, there would be no issue about an enemy suddenly appearing in front of you and catching you unprepared, as you would just click the fire button rather than having to hit the special toggle key. Besides, enemies are already at an advantage if you don't expect them when they're already aiming down their sights.

I see some arguments here against a toggled system mention Arma's clunkiness. Arma and its lower/raise weapon function is clunky not (entirely) because there's a key binding for it, it's clunky because of the rigid and unresponsive way it behaves due to animation problems arising from engine limitations. Arma's game engine is still firmly anchored in the late 1990s when it was developed. All aspects of Arma are affected by these limitations, especially its animation system, where many actions come out delayed due to animation conflicts. Some people conflate Arma's engine clunkiness with realism-focused gameplay in general (and sometimes assume fun and realism exist at opposite ends of a spectrum), but should understand that most of Arma's issues are largely specific to its archaic engine. In UE4 it would be possible to create a much more fluid solution to this topic and others.

As for why would even just a purely cosmetic animation be worth adding, for me it's because of the large impact on visual immersion, and IMO it just looks bad to see everyone pointing their weapon at whatever they're looking at no matter the context, including constantly waving gun barrels in teammates faces. You can see that demonstrated in this video here.

Perhaps as a compromise there could just be an automatic animation that lowers the weapon when looking directly at a teammate at close range when not aiming down the sights. Either way, I'm sure they'll look into this topic further when the time is right, but for now there are much higher development priorities.

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Either way, I'm sure they'll look into this topic further when the time is right, but for now there are much higher development priorities.

 

Thats really what it comes down to. This presently small team has a lot to do. I dont know what their road map is, but I'm assuming theres at least 20 stops before any purely aesthetic additions like a weapon lowering mechanism. I could be wrong.

If it were incorporated as a functional addition, It would make more sense in terms of development cost. Lowering your weapon (slung to your chest) could facilitate hands-free interaction with other environmental elements; Climbing on 4s, opening doors, getting in trucks, climbing walls and ladders, all those goodies. This would need to be a toggle animation, but at this point its a functional addition. Thats also a sh-t load of work.

When they break their Kickstarter goal by $5M then maybe something like this could be asked for. In the meantime, functionalizing all the core game elements like modes, models, rotary and fixed wing, artillery and mortars, day-night and weather cycles, all that stuff is more critical to gameplay and immersion.

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I really don't think it's fair to write everyone off like that.

Can you maybe offer your two cents? I'm Interested in what you envision as the best case scenario.

I think your post was an example of good discussion in this thread. You broke down the animation system into different stances and clearly explained what your terminology meant.

 

But other posts have amounted to basically two inarticulate lines of thought: "Manual weapon lowering is too clunky" vs "Always shouldering the weapon is too wierd-looking". It is a false dichotomy. No distinction is being made between the hipfire (weapon held at waist) position and the ADS position, nor is anyone talking about the difference between weapon-lowered position and hipfire position. This leads to a lot of language confusion in this thread because very few people are using the terms "weapon shouldered position" "ADS position" "hipfire position" in a consistent way. In addition, lots of people are not accounting for the fact that SQUAD has a true first person system (unlike BF2), which adds another layer of confusion to the thread when they propose things that could only work in a game that uses 1p animations.

 

Maybe it was a bit harsh to call most of the discussion in this thread garbage, but if people aren't on the same page then the discussion will just continue to be nonsense.

 

 

Currently, this is the situation in SQUAD (this is how it worked when I played in 626 and I don't think it has changed since then):

 

Pseudo-hipfire Position

Weapon is pressed against the shoulder, but the soldier just isn't aiming down the sights. Clicking produces unaimed "pseudo-hipfire" (eg. hipfire produced from the shoulder instead of the waist).

ADS Position

Weapon is still pressed against the shoulder. The soldier leans in slightly to use the weapon sights/optics.

 

The important thing to note here is that there is no "True Hipfire" Position in the game currently. Neither is there a weapon lowered position. The result is that it's basically impossible to tell if another player just went into ADS, because you don't see any kind of animation. The weapon is held at the shoulder the whole time, even though in first person it looks like hipfire comes from the waist. It looks very weird, gamey, and not believable at all. I have no idea the why the devs currently have it setup this way. Perhaps it is because the camera is centered at the player's head, and the weapon has to be shouldered permanently so that the player can see where his weapon's barrel is pointing? Or maybe it's just a temporary implementation until they come up with something better?

 

 

Now I'll describe a "2-stance system"

 

True Hipfire Position

Weapon is held at the waist, and the barrel is pointed forwards. When the player clicks, the result is "true hipfire" where the soldier is producing inaccurate fire from the waist instead of the shoulder.

ADS Position

When the player enters ADS, the soldier raises the weapon to his shoulder and leans in to aim down sights/optics.

 

This would be another system without a weapon-lowered stance. It replaces the pseudo-hipfire position with a true hipfire position. You'd still get odd situations where friendly soldiers are pointing their guns at friendlies from the waist, but at least it wouldn't be as bad as 626 where friendlies look at each other by pressing the stock against their shoulder and leaning forward as if they're about to take a shot all the time. Hipfire position looks a lot less threatening to friendlies than shouldering the weapon, but of course, an actual lowered weapon animation would be ideal for preventing friendly fire accidents.

 

 

And here's a "3-stance system", basically equivalent to your idea, RushTheBus:

 

Weapon Lowered Position

The weapon is not ready to fire, and the barrel is pointed downwards.

Hipfire Position

Weapon is held at the waist, and the barrel is pointed forwards. When the player clicks, the result is "true hipfire" where the soldier is producing inaccurate fire from the waist.

ADS Position

When the player enters ADS, the soldier raises the weapon to his shoulder and leans in to aim down sights/optics.

 

The weapon-lowered position is introduced. So now players have a way to face each other without pointing their guns at each other.

 

But now, it's contentious how the transition between hipfire position and weapon-lowered position should work. Should the player have to manually lower/raise the weapon with a key? And how long should the animation take (should it be instantaneous, or smooth)?

 

I think there's only two reasonable proposals:

 

1.) There is no key to lower/raise the weapon. If the player is in the hipfire position but doesn't go into ADS for a while, then the game automatically has the soldier do a weapon lowering animation. If the player clicks at any time, then there will be an instantaneous shift into the hipfire position so that the player can hipfire without preparation. (eg. it takes time to lower the weapon, but it doesn't take any time to raise the weapon into the hipfire position and shoot right away). This allows the player to respond to enemies with instant hipfire whenever he needs to. The tradeoff is that there will be a lack of transition animations, which will look a bit wierd and gamey sometimes.

 

2.) There is a real transition animation between weapon-lowered position and hipfire position. To transition, the player has to press a key every time they want to raise or lower the weapon. The benefit is that there are always transition animations, and the whole animation system is smooth and believable. The tradeoff is that players have to learn to use a new button, and if an enemy shows up while the player has his weapon lowered then he'll have to raise the weapon before he can do hipfire. A dev previously stated he didn't want to have a system like this because he wanted SQUAD to have a simpler control scheme where players don't have to think about when to lower/raise the weapon.

 

I'm more partial to option 2.) because it will look smoother and more believable, but I wouldn't mind if 1.) was implemented instead to keep the controls simple. The devs have always stated that SQUAD is a large-scale tactical FPS, not a military simulator.

 

As others have said, making the weapon-lowered position use less stamina would be one way to add another layer of tactical decision-making to the game. I happen to agree, but it's not something that is relevant to the player animations so I didn't really mention it in this post.

 

 

Anyway, the most important thing is to note that the lowering/raising I was referring to is not the same as the lowering/raising between the hipfire position and ADS position. When people here say "lower" or "raise" in their posts, most of the time they are failing to specify which lower/raise they mean. It's an important distinction, and if that distinction is not being recognized then there's no point to posting in this thread.

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Nightingale...while appreciating your effort and agreeing with your conclusions I have to say that the only thing you ve done is to explain everything ,that was already stated ,in detail ,while calling other posts garbage.

Yes, maybe this thread needed that but I don't think that there is anything new in your post. The first solution you give is the exact system of Project Reality. Iron taxi already told his opinion on that and people discussed new ideas. I dont need to differenciate ADS from hipfire to understand whats going on.

I would not write this if you would not have called the other stuff garbage and I got a little bit angry while reading through stuff we already know.

On the other side: The solutions you described are working options imo and I hope that the devs try some solutions in the future. I loved how PR handled it.

( im writing on my tablet. Wrong writing all over teh place)

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Perhaps the biggest issue for me that would seperate this game from other more game orientated shooters is the issue of having a raised weapon all the time.

Think about it. You imagine trying to run with a weapon aimed. It's impossible. Likewise, your arms would get tired if you had your weapon up all the time.

I reckon if the developers really want to make this game different from all the rest you should have to click your mouse once to bring your weapon to bear. Or something like that. And you would get fatigued if it was at ready all time time.

My two cents.cheers.

+1

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I do agree there is a general nomenclature / concept confusion in this thread. Frankly, while i appreciate the thread I'm not sure the discussion was framed properly from the outset. I think the community discussion and back / forth is healthy as long as it remains civil and professional, who knows some of what we discuss here may actually stir up their imagination. It makes logical sense that they want to have a system that is simple in both implementation and end user functionality as well as smooth. Maybe we should try to tailor our discussion with all of that in mind.

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Nightingale...while appreciating your effort and agreeing with your conclusions I have to say that the only thing you ve done is to explain everything ,that was already stated ,in detail ,while calling other posts garbage.

 

Yeah I went back to take a look and I have to admit I was wrong to say that most of the thread was garbage.

 

Most of the discussion here was thoughtful, even though some of it was a bit repetitive and cyclical. There were however a few special posts that contributed nothing to the discussion and demonstrated that the poster had done no reading in this thread, and when I saw these posts I guess I got a bit angry and painted the whole thread with the same stroke. So I apologize for saying the posts were garbage, because they weren't.

 

But I still do not think that the points I made about the hipfire position are trivial. There is a lot of movement that happens between the weapon-lowered position and the ADS position. When someone says "it should be instantaneous to raise the weapon from the lowered position", it's not clear if they mean "(1) it should be instantaneous to go from lowered position to hipfire position" or "(2) it should be instantaneous to go from hipfire position to ADS position" or "(3) it should be instantaneous to go from lowered position to ADS position". It's just not a good way to talk about the thread's subject matter.

 

Maybe I'm just being nitpicky but I really think it's those subtle things that cause this thread to go around and around in circles.

 

 

the first solution you give is the exact system of Project Reality

 

???

 

You mean the 626 build?

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It bothers me so much to see those weapons raised 24/7. It kills me. I hope its like the way in PR or possibly like arma, both are fine for me. Just seeing them raised always drives me crazy.

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Nightingale, I can see how my post about instantly raising the weapon from the lowered position is maybe not entirely clear and that the terminology hasn't been sufficiently defined, so I'll try to do so.

When I, and I think most others here, refer to lowering the weapon, I mean lowering the muzzle as seen here, so that it is pointing towards the ground rather than straight ahead, while the stock is still near the shoulder. From that lowered state, raising the weapon would mean bringing it to the fully shouldered position and having it pointing ahead. That means bringing it to the current default position that is in the game now, or to aiming down the sights, depending on which button you hit (left click vs right click).

 

I do not think a true hip-fire position (held at the waist pointing ahead, 80s movie style) should be in this game, as most militaries and even the more formidable irregular militia groups of the world do not regularly use this position, and it would strongly detract from the visual authenticity of the game.

 

As for it being instant, I say that as a sort of compromise out of recognition that many here who are not used to this feature may see this as excessive realism, and fear encountering an enemy while in the lowered state could get them killed (even though it's little different from how already a prepared enemy that is aiming down the sights will be at advantage over someone who isn't). If this were to be added as a purely cosmetic animation out of a desire to minimize intrusiveness, then raising the weapon should be relatively instant so you can fire or aim immediately. In that case there should be almost no difference between lowered or raised for the time it takes to fire or aim down the sights. But I think if this were a toggled state connected to a deeper stamina system (though nothing crazy like arms getting tired from shouldering or aiming too long, save that for realism mods), then it would make sense for it not to be quite as instant so as to add consideration of a tactical element, but it should still be extremely fast and fluid, much more so than its execution in Arma which is not the best representation of this function.

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Yeah I went back to take a look and I have to admit I was wrong to say that most of the thread was garbage.

 

Most of the discussion here was thoughtful, even though some of it was a bit repetitive and cyclical. There were however a few special posts that contributed nothing to the discussion and demonstrated that the poster had done no reading in this thread, and when I saw these posts I guess I got a bit angry and painted the whole thread with the same stroke. So I apologize for saying the posts were garbage, because they weren't.

 

But I still do not think that the points I made about the hipfire position are trivial. There is a lot of movement that happens between the weapon-lowered position and the ADS position. When someone says "it should be instantaneous to raise the weapon from the lowered position", it's not clear if they mean "(1) it should be instantaneous to go from lowered position to hipfire position" or "(2) it should be instantaneous to go from hipfire position to ADS position" or "(3) it should be instantaneous to go from lowered position to ADS position". It's just not a good way to talk about the thread's subject matter.

 

Maybe I'm just being nitpicky but I really think it's those subtle things that cause this thread to go around and around in circles.

 

 

 

???

 

You mean the 626 build?

I mean your first solution.

This one:

1.) There is no key to lower/raise the weapon. If the player is in the hipfire position but doesn't go into ADS for a while, then the game automatically has the soldier do a weapon lowering animation. If the player clicks at any time, then there will be an instantaneous shift into the hipfire position so that the player can hipfire without preparation. (eg. it takes time to lower the weapon, but it doesn't take any time to raise the weapon into the hipfire position and shoot right away). This allows the player to respond to enemies with instant hipfire whenever he needs to. The tradeoff is that there will be a lack of transition animations, which will look a bit wierd and gamey sometimes.

 

This is the exact system of PR. Sure, PR had no true first person, but I don't see a problem with this in Squad. Some gamey movement is okay with me if my immersion is not destroyed by 24/7 raised Rifles ^^

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Just wanted to add some visuals to illustrate what i was talking about in regards to my post on page 5. These are the three positions i envision and how they would look (generally).

 

 

Relaxed

 

still_3.jpg

 

Ready

 

1st.mef.jpg

 

ADS

 

pict22.jpg

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Alright, so I just signed up on the forums, but I am one of the military advisors for this game.

 

Coming from a realism stand point, I understand many of the concerns and I have a lot of experience with BF2:PR and ARMA: UO guys. 

 

Honestly, for what this game is trying to achieve, this really does not hold any practical gameplay value unless the devs decide to integrate this into some sort of stamina management mechanic. Otherwise, there is no real value other than for aesthetics. I personally feel that adding this feature, especially a keybind, would just be another unnecessary feature that might put people off as it would seem to much like ARMA.

 

Also, I would venture to argue, that for realism sake, in the video game setting, it is realistic to be at the ready or low ready when you enter a match. When you move into an area that you expect contact is imminent, you will raise your weapon. This is essentially what is occurring when you join a game, you are thrown DIRECTLY into a hostile environment with imminent contact right out the door. This isn't ARMA where you spend two hours briefing in a school circle and then go out into a village and role play with civilians. This is combat as soon as you enter the game.

 

I understand where a lot of people are coming from and maybe in the future this could be added if they add civilians like PR, but right now, I honestly feel the devs could use the resources for this to make something more meaningful for release.

 

I have to agree with Sgt. Ross. While I LIKE the added RP elements of things like this, I don't see it as a required feature as some have suggested.

 

However if it is something that comes in later down the line, I don't agree with it being something the player can't control. I personally do not like the idea of my weapon just lowering and staying down after a period of time. I would be fine with the weapon snapping up in a single frame when clicking in order to react to a contact, as long as I can choose to lower the weapon myself.

 

However my personal suggestion would be as follows: Some of the posters have also expressed that they would like the feature as a means to prevent muzzle flagging. My suggestion might be to do an automatic system that lowers the weapon as you mouse over a friendly. This would of course be constrained to a certain distance from your character. Like Sgt. Ross said, joining a match is like starting a battle, its an active combat zone unlike more persistent, open world experiences like ARMA. This system keeps the theme of an active fight, but doing things like clearing a compound might be more immersive as teammates are lowering their weapons to avoid flagging. This would obviously be more of a polishing stage type of feature.

 

Just kind of a middle ground idea, like I said I wouldn't be opposed to having the feature and wouldn't be upset by not having it.

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But the lower/raise weapon thing in ArmA is horrible and no one use it. The only purpose it serves is that you forget what button raised your weapon. If you want to raise your weapon just ADS, and it will stay raised for the next 5 minutes or so.

what are you talking about? people use that mechanic in ArmA all the time

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A certain picard meme comes to mind reading this thread. Squad is being marketed as a tactical, realistic authentic shooter yet people are arguing against the inclusion of a realistic feature because it's another button to press..... Err what? If new players are turned off by something as benign as correct method of holding a rifle from relaxed to combat ready by the tap of a button perhaps they shouldn't be playing squad at all.

Arma, love it or hate it (or both at times) is the daddy of "realism" and they are many good features that shouldn't ld be dismissed out of hand simply because it's sim ish. It's the height of stupidity to ignore what is clearly successful series despite its flaws.

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Ok, new to the forums and this will be my virgin post, be gentle. An interesting discussion and fwiw, I'll add my opinion. I'd like to see the Relaxed/Ready/ADS weapon positions as previously posted, not just for aesthetic reasons but with each having a corresponding positive and negative effect on movement speed, stamina and sway. I think letting a player make their choice adds a small amount of interesting complexity as well as immersion. eg. Dropping your weapon will give you a greater field of view, but put you at slightly more risk.

 

Relaxed would be the auto position when sprinting, would enable the fastest movement with the quickest drop in stamina and greatest resulting sway. Stop sprinting and you revert to Ready.

Ready would be at jogging speed, longer stamina.

ADS would be walk, little stamina drain and lowest sway except when prone or supported.

 

Any position should be toggleable and I don't feel it would add any more complexity than having the traditional three body positions, prone/crouch/standing. Just like you can easily set your binds to select each individually, or go straight from prone to sprint when you click "Sprint", you could go from Relaxed to Ready in an emergency situation with a LMB. I like the option for the relaxed state in A3, and I find it easy and simple to use, although I fully agree that with the mutiple very cool positions available in ARMA, it can seem like a keystroke nightmare. I realize that Squad isn't trying to be a milsim, nor would I want it to be one, but this seems to fit well within the definition of a realistic FPS.

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A certain picard meme comes to mind reading this thread. Squad is being marketed as a tactical, realistic authentic shooter yet people are arguing against the inclusion of a realistic feature because it's another button to press..... Err what? If new players are turned off by something as benign as correct method of holding a rifle from relaxed to combat ready by the tap of a button perhaps they shouldn't be playing squad at all.

Arma, love it or hate it (or both at times) is the daddy of "realism" and they are many good features that shouldn't ld be dismissed out of hand simply because it's sim ish. It's the height of stupidity to ignore what is clearly successful series despite its flaws.

Well there have been from beginning this goal to keep controls as simple and intuitive as possible.

 

For RushTheBus idea I must say it could work nicely, while I'm not a fan of "complex" key combinations for simple tasks. It doesn't add any extra controls and it is dual purposing few weeks old builds (626) movement modes and keys. Only thing I personally would maybe change is the putting jog and sprint both as relaxed mode, maybe.

 

So when you want to be able to shoot right away, without waiting to weapon be rised you should use walk as moving speed and using current "high ready" weapon hold. Without that you would need to wait short animation to get first bullet out of the barrel.

 

--------------

 

In SQUAD development build 626 there is three momevement states:

Sprint - The fasters run, there is no ability to shoot in that mode as seen all videos of SQUAD (Left SHIFT key)

Jog (slow run) - Basic movement speed like mostly seen in SQD videos. (WASD)

Walk - Well, walk. Gives some accuracy bonus in SQD build 626. (Left ALT)

AIM/ADS - Aims throught iron sights or scope. (RMB = Right Mouse Button)

 

Then there is SHIFT key doubling as "Keep Breath" to minimize momentary the weapon sway.

 

-------------

 

For those who need that "drop you weapon barrel" action while pointing friendly unit. I suggest with all friendlyness you to play a few rounds some teambased fast phased game with friendly fire enabled to get your trigger finger control in the state where you don't be the most dangerous soldier in the army. When you can shoot between stack of friendly units moving semi randomly in some doorway you have your trigger control.

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what are you talking about? people use that mechanic in ArmA all the time

I can't say I'm an avid vanilla ArmA fan, but if I recall correctly, in ArmA III, lowering or raising your weapon makes no difference gameplay wise, other than the fact that you can't shoot with your weapon lowered, hence the function is just plain stupid. For most mods, DayZ, etc. though, the function does make some sense since it alters your running speed and mobility, and you can fire while sprinting if you have your weapon up, although your accuracy will be terrible. Now if the latter is implemented then that would be nice, especially since it allows you to sprint and fire which could be useful if you're a point man breaching a compound.

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Big discussions in this thread, but everyone wants an extreme army man simulator and forgets that squad is a tac shooter!

 

Remember, the best thing about games like PR and the like is that the guns being shoved in your face the whole time add to the badass feels of an infantry fighter. In games like ArmA and Ground Branch the guns are just kind of loosely floating around with awful origin positions and they just look awkward and unweildly. Besides, more buttons is never a good thing. Games like Hidden and Dangerous 2 had some of the greatest movement controls out there but because of the extremely awkward sighting and aiming mechanics it was really hard to take it seriously

 

Besides, everyone knows that it'd never happen anyway.

 

ArmA is a big hit because there's nothing out to compete with it. That isn't to say that ArmA is culprit to some of the most asenine and terrible controls out there. Beggars can't be choosers, and I think the mentality to the game's fanbase is that they've just grown to deal with the nuances of awkward controls

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I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I just read through the entire thread. The problem with adding an extra button is that you alienate users like me. I have my original keyboard and mouse. I have 3 buttons on my mouse and short fingers to reach only the immediate buttons around WSAD. It's already crowded in any shooter I play. Just because you have 900 buttons available doesn't mean you shouldn't consider this. I'm not going to go buy the latest gaming mouse just to play a game and I would say a lot of people won't either. If you want people to play with, don't alienate the non-hardcore gamers. 

 

As long as the feature doesn't clog up my keyboard, I'm game. Some of you guys are thinking too much along ARMA lines, though. If it takes an hour to see enemy in this game it's going to get boring fast. If I could see an enemy in the next few minutes, I'm not going to lower my weapon to my side. I would rather see something along the lines of your weapon being slightly under your view like someone already posted. It's more comfortable and realistic and you can respond quickly to engagements. 

 

And if it doesn't change from what it is now...oh well. I'm just happy the game is being made. If this really breaks it for you, maybe you should try going outside. Or go try out Airsoft. That's bound to be more realism for you.

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