bumfluff

Please no raised weapon as default

411 posts in this topic

Let's get some terminology in this thread, because I think we are all guilty of throwing words around without giving them consistent definitions.

 

Weapon Lowered position

Weapon's barrel is pointed downwards. Not possible to fire the weapon in this position. Most FPS games don't have this as an explicit stance.

 

Hipfire position

The "default" position, where the weapon is held at the waist, barrel pointed forwards. It is possible to hipfire, but going ADS will take you out of this position.

 

Weapon Shouldered position

This position is automatically assumed when the player goes into ADS. Rifle butt is pressed against shoulder, soldier leans in to take accurate shots with the weapon's iron-sights or optics.

 

 

I think the OP was addressing the problem of many FPSes compressing the third-person animations for Hipfire position and Weapon Shouldered position into one (eg. Arma II), resulting in players who always looked ready to shoot each other.

 

In PR (BF2), Hipfire position and Weapon Lowered position are compressed into one. When the player is not aiming down sights, then the player model looks like he has the weapon pointed down (even though in first-person, the weapon is held as if ready to hipfire). But as soon as he hipfires, the player model shows the soldier immediately shooting the weapon as if it had been held at the waist the whole time. It looked a bit gamey, but it did solve the problem the OP described.

 

But as SQUAD will have a "true first person" system (where the third-person animations match the first-person animations), it obviously can't use the same system that PR had.

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As for me, I believed that will be in game for sure.

But developers are quite against it, I don't see why. Yes another key biding, but this is not noob friendly game as COD series where you need 4 keys to have full control of game.

I said it, and I always will, I love ArmA complexity and variety of functions. Check map, show compas, watches .... Double click to switch between run and walk speed, raised and lowered weapon ...

And as was said, lowering wepons must be in serious FPS games. I saw countless missfire that caused ALT+TABing back to game, many brave soldiers died due to it. Or when you are looking at friendly soldier, it is not good when you pointing weapon at him.

I would like to also see, that running with rised weapon will drain stamina little bit fater, but on the other hand you will be able to fire faster. And the other way round.

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As for me, I believed that will be in game for sure.

But developers are quite against it, I don't see why. Yes another key biding, but this is not noob friendly game as COD series where you need 4 keys to have full control of game.

I said it, and I always will, I love ArmA complexity and variety of functions. Check map, show compas, watches .... Double click to switch between run and walk speed, raised and lowered weapon ...

And as was said, lowering wepons must be in serious FPS games. I saw countless missfire that caused ALT+TABing back to game, many brave soldiers died due to it. Or when you are looking at friendly soldier, it is not good when you pointing weapon at him.

I would like to also see, that running with rised weapon will drain stamina little bit fater, but on the other hand you will be able to fire faster. And the other way round.

 

We arent against it at all. 

 

Just needs testing, consideration and impact analysis.

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[time to draw weapon to Hipfire position] [time to acquire target] [time to kill].

 

[time to draw weapon to Weapon Shouldered position] [time to acquire target] [time to kill].

 

I can't find the thread, but there was a great discussion on aiming mechanics.

 

Then another thread on weapon sway/deviation/cone of fire.

 

Each additional step in the sequence adds if not pure exponential , at least non linear complexity to calculating what in generally called Time to Kill (TTK) in the FPS shooter community.

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Let's get some terminology in this thread, because I think we are all guilty of throwing words around without giving them the same meaning as each other.

 

Weapon Lowered position

Weapon's barrel is pointed downwards. Not possible to fire the weapon in this position. Most FPS games don't have this as an explicit stance.

 

Hipfire position

The "default" position, where the weapon is held at the waist, barrel pointed forwards. It is possible to hipfire, but going ADS will take you out of this position.

 

Weapon Shouldered position

This position is automatically assumed when the player goes into ADS. Rifle butt is pressed against shoulder, soldier leans in to take accurate shots with the weapon's iron-sights or optics.

 

 

I think the OP was addressing the problem of many FPSes compressing the third-person animations for Hipfire position and Weapon Shouldered position into one (eg. Arma II), resulting in players who always looked ready to shoot each other.

 

In PR (BF2), Hipfire position and Weapon Lowered position are compressed into one. When the player is not aiming down sights, then the player model looks like he has the weapon pointed down (even though in first-person, the weapon is held as if ready to hipfire). But as soon as he hipfires, the player model shows the soldier immediately shooting the weapon as if it had been held at the waist the whole time. It looked a bit gamey, but it did solve the problem the OP described.

 

But as SQUAD will have a "true first person" system (where the third-person animations match the first-person animations), it obviously can't use the same system that PR had.

Hot damn, this should have been in the OP. Thanks for the clarificaiton. I can see the drive for making 3 distinct weapon stances. I think it would add a lot in terms of realism to the appearance of soldiers viewed in 3rd person on the battlefield. As cool as that would be, I think gameplay is of a higher importance. Im sure it could be done fluidly meeting both criteria given the determination.

Perhaps we provide a key for "safety" on weapon. Safety being the removal of trigger finger and essentially the holstering of weapons.

Or what if, rather, shift-tapping your weapons select holstered your weapon? so Shift+1 would holster your rifle, and pressing 1 would select your rifle and put you in hipfire mode. Assuming that all assets you have in your inventory dont disappear when they arent selected, then selecting your pistol by pressing should essentially holster your primary.

From here it would be a matter of server/community mindset. Having the option to holster doesnt mean ppl will do it. Add in the bonuses of running faster, and I think you will see the community at large adopt the mechanism. This would fall inline with my thread from a few months back about climbing in terrain on all fours. Your weapon would be holstered, and when you need to fire you need to "grab your weapon" e.g. press 1 or 2 or 3 etc.

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...Or just learn a habit to point the point of aim over the shoulder of friendly player. Lets not go to the "ironing the bdus in the fob" (...where that pic were..) level again. :)

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i think the key here is that this game was intending to offer equivalent perspectives for first and third persons. If i am hipfire ready in first person, my world model should also be hipfire ready so that when I *do* hipfire it doesnt come out of nowhere.

the disadvantage to having everyone walk around hipfure ready is that "it looks funny" as well as the potential for accidental discharge and friendly fire. Not big enough of an issue to rebuild the game, but "it would be nice if..."

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as long as binds are editable ppl can come up with whatever suits them best. In other games I can reasonably quickly stow my primary and draw my sidearm and acquire a target. I would imagine that aslong as I can do the same from a holstered stance , having stowed weapons wouldnt be a serious issue for combat performance either...

it really comes down to ROI for the dev time. Adding this means not adding something else or getting the game a few months later. So how big of a deal is this?

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Alright, so I just signed up on the forums, but I am one of the military advisors for this game.

 

Coming from a realism stand point, I understand many of the concerns and I have a lot of experience with BF2:PR and ARMA: UO guys. 

 

Honestly, for what this game is trying to achieve, this really does not hold any practical gameplay value unless the devs decide to integrate this into some sort of stamina management mechanic. Otherwise, there is no real value other than for aesthetics. I personally feel that adding this feature, especially a keybind, would just be another unnecessary feature that might put people off as it would seem to much like ARMA.

 

Also, I would venture to argue, that for realism sake, in the video game setting, it is realistic to be at the ready or low ready when you enter a match. When you move into an area that you expect contact is imminent, you will raise your weapon. This is essentially what is occurring when you join a game, you are thrown DIRECTLY into a hostile environment with imminent contact right out the door. This isn't ARMA where you spend two hours briefing in a school circle and then go out into a village and role play with civilians. This is combat as soon as you enter the game.

 

I understand where a lot of people are coming from and maybe in the future this could be added if they add civilians like PR, but right now, I honestly feel the devs could use the resources for this to make something more meaningful for release.

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Maybe a system like in ground branch could be viable.

In bf 2 pr everybody in third person always has their weapon lowered.

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Unfortunately, if the whole intent for this feature to be added is for realism, even the example given in the video is unrealistic. The way it is implemented in that video, you have your weapon at the low-ready even indoors. In reality, your weapon would be up the whole time and depending on your optic, you would be both eyes open through a reflex/aimpoint or both eyes open looking directly over your ACOG RCO. I wouldn't drop my weapon unless there was a very specific reason.

 

The whole thing is just wonky and the only real way to implement this for actual realism sake is to make it a keybind, which I do not think is a good idea for this game.

 

Also, for the BF2:PR guys, this game has true 1st/3rd person perspective, as in, what you do in 1st person shows in 3rd person. So, it may have worked in PR, but it doesn't work that way here. You can't have the weapon up at all times in 1st person and weapon alert to the dirt in 3rd person.

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The whole thing is just wonky and the only real way to implement this for actual realism sake is to make it a keybind, which I do not think is a good idea for this game.

How is having more options bad? Don't want to use it? then don't! no one is forcing you.

 

But those that would like to have a clear open screen to have a better look around and not have your weapon sometimes take up half your screen at all time, it would be there. And again, it adds a sense of safety so you don't get shot by some schmuck who was pointing his gun at you and accidentally hit his left mouse button. 

 

Aside from the addition work to get it in for the devs, there is literally no downside to adding it.

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Well, that is what it comes down to, priority really, I just don't think it is necessary in the short term is all.

 

I have addressed safety concerns with some of the devs, possibly something more "immediate" that other games like Americas Army has done. The example given was when up against an obstacle or pointing at a friendly unit within a certain range/area around the reticle, your weapon would automatically go "alert to the dirt".

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Well, that is what it comes down to, priority really, I just don't think it is necessary in the short term is all.

 

I have addressed safety concerns with some of the devs, possibly something more "immediate" that other games like Americas Army has done. The example given was when up against an obstacle or pointing at a friendly unit within a certain range/area around the reticle, your weapon would automatically go "alert to the dirt".

If they'd already be up for putting in the time to add an animation to make you go "alert to the dirt"(i'm assuming pointing your gun down like other games have) then i don't see why they wouldn't just add a keybinding to it so someone could do it at any time.

 

But yes there are obviously far more important things and just other things in general that take priority at this stage(or any time soon) But to just outright dismiss it seems a bit narrow minded(not saying you are, just in general)

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Oh yeah, fair enough, everything is on the table at the moment, so feedback is welcomed.

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But the lower/raise weapon thing in ArmA is horrible and no one use it. The only purpose it serves is that you forget what button raised your weapon. If you want to raise your weapon just ADS, and it will stay raised for the next 5 minutes or so.

I use the lover/raise gun mechanic all the time in arma, But that's mostly for when we're going out of a hot zone and are going to go for a longer walk/in base/during transport (Vehicle and on foot.)

Having it automatic could make some problems, I would rather have it semi-automatic in a way, so that  you could lower it by double tapping for example control like in Arma and having it automatically raise if you're really close to gunfire (All gunfire within 20m, enemy or friendly does not matter.), being suppressed, presses right or left mouse button or in after a sprint. 

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I use it all the time in Arma as well. Besides, kills the immersion when you're running with your squad over a large amount of terrain only to see everyone with their weapon constantly raised. I'd even be keen for weapons to automatically lower when they clip a wall or obstacle.

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I would prefer the possibility to lower/raise your weapon by pressing a key and also an effect on your stamina. But in case it is too complex, you should at least be able to do it. For those who want to do it even without an effect. Each other could play with risen weapon. Of course this is not important in alpha but I would like to see it in later versions.

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I personally would like to keep it the way PR has it, its the reason I loved PR so much (even more than Arma), Balance between realism and Fun, I've concluded I don't like the feature in Arma so i don't want it here

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Well SQUAD will have a true first person system, so it's already impossible for it to be like PR...

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Well SQUAD will have a true first person system, so it's already impossible for it to be like PR...

It might not be too late to make it work like PR : add a real 1p system (two flying arms, the weapon, and a camera), use the anims they used for the old true 1p as default 3p anims, add lowered weapons 3p anims (and many more).

As an animator I would have gone for that kind of PR-like system from the beginning. It's significantly more work to do overall as youd have to deal with 1p and 3p anims seperately, but would allow your game to look way more sexy as both type of anims wouldnt limit each others, which is kinda happening in Squad right now.

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^and because of it 1p player hands texture have quite low resolution. Little offtop to the mostly animation point of this topic:

Is there a possibility to cut arms in this true 1p model and add new ones with better overall quality and combine it with main player model via childobject?

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It might not be too late to make it work like PR : add a real 1p system (two flying arms, the weapon, and a camera), use the anims they used for the old true 1p as default 3p anims, add lowered weapons 3p anims (and many more).

As an animator I would have gone for that kind of PR-like system from the beginning. It's significantly more work to do overall as youd have to deal with 1p and 3p anims seperately, but would allow your game to look way more sexy as both type of anims wouldnt limit each others, which is kinda happening in Squad right now.

That's the whole point, they've already gone for merged anims between 1p and 3p cause it's more realistic and easier to do, I'd hate having lowered hands in 3p but ready-to-kill in 1p, totally kills immersion.

For a manual system, a key that would work well would be the sprint key.

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