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Spookyz

Jets in the future?

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Instead of fly a jet in limited maps ( remember that even ArmA islands are "limited" for aerial combat ) it could be intresting having an UAV with limited Hellfires ( 4? 8? ) for CAS.

No one has to "drive" it , it requires only someone to laser the target.

Sounds like COD to me. Why not have someone drive the UAV ? Non player controlled stuff is just...ugh...

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Sounds like COD to me. Why not have someone drive the UAV ? Non player controlled stuff is just...ugh...

 

Let's just say...you're on to something. ;)

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If the jets in Squad will be like in Project Reality, its all good.

 

Bigger maps will disable the possibility for the jets to clear all the area. You will need inf info from the ground.

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Planes in BF1942 ....playing Battle of Briton....those planes flew with actual flight characteristics...if you dove too fast you couldnt pull out of the dive fast enough....and crashed...stick flying is the best.

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I was flying a Pawnee in A3 today, dogfighting jets and shooting them down, so even in ARMA, they're flying too slow....  :lol:

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If the jets in Squad will be like in Project Reality, its all good.

 

Bigger maps will disable the possibility for the jets to clear all the area. You will need inf info from the ground.

 

But it isn't that simple. Even if you did emulate PR's jets 1:1 they would play completely differently because of draw distance. Think about this, in PR when you fly you can only see a 700m radius, so you couldn't see very much of the map or other air vehicles. You had to fly around to find enemies, and it also sorta provided you with cover. Flying air vehicles in PR is like hide and seek. In Squad on the other hand, once you takeoff you can see across the entire map. You can spot any enemy jets and helicopters immediately, and engage them immediately. This worries me because when flying you will never be hidden, you will always be under constant attack, and the enemy will always know exactly where you are. This takes away all of strategy and tactical gameplay from flying air vehicles. BF3/4 is a good example of this. Flying in those game is boring because you spawn, spot enemies immediately, and just fly directly toward them firing missiles and such. Also, with the smaller draw distance, maps felt a lot larger because you couldn't see across the whole thing. Its like when you drive back roads at night time without street lights. Everything seems so much faster and bigger when you can only see 20 feet in front of you. I really worry how air vehicles will play out in this game, the devs are going to have to be very clever to figure them out. You want to sneak a squad via chopper behind enemy lines?...everyone's ganna see you doing it in plain sight...

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But it isn't that simple. Even if you did emulate PR's jets 1:1 they would play completely differently because of draw distance. Think about this, in PR when you fly you can only see a 700m radius, so you couldn't see very much of the map or other air vehicles. You had to fly around to find enemies, and it also sorta provided you with cover. Flying air vehicles in PR is like hide and seek. In Squad on the other hand, once you takeoff you can see across the entire map. You can spot any enemy jets and helicopters immediately, and engage them immediately. This worries me because when flying you will never be hidden, you will always be under constant attack, and the enemy will always know exactly where you are. This takes away all of strategy and tactical gameplay from flying air vehicles. BF3/4 is a good example of this. Flying in those game is boring because you spawn, spot enemies immediately, and just fly directly toward them firing missiles and such. Also, with the smaller draw distance, maps felt a lot larger because you couldn't see across the whole thing. Its like when you drive back roads at night time without street lights. Everything seems so much faster and bigger when you can only see 20 feet in front of you. I really worry how air vehicles will play out in this game, the devs are going to have to be very clever to figure them out. You want to sneak a squad via chopper behind enemy lines?...everyone's ganna see you doing it in plain sight...

 

So would 16x16 km maps and distance fog would make planes both viable and not too overpowered? I personally think Squad is in need for Jets in the future. It's one of Squads characteristics which the game has been advertised with and I feel that is where it should go anyway. Combined Arms + CAS is what I'm looking for, but obviously only on maps that allow this type of scenario. In PR i liked the non-jet maps as much as the INF only and one including vehicular combat.

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I don't see what all the fuss is about having jets in game that are slower than their real life counter parts. It's a video game gents. So long as it feels awesome and still looks pretty awesome, then why not?

 

If the team can work around all of those other issues(map size, airstrips, etc) and a way to have jets that fly say, 1/4 of their real life speed, that works for me. It's totally worth the awesome moments that calling in strikes while talking to a pilot brings to a game like this. As for balance issues, I have never once felt cheated in PR by the jets while playing infantry and I rarely flew myself.

 

I am confident that the team and the community can come to an agreement as to what will work best. Something like 1 attack jet per team on an appropriate map with 10 minute respawn time. With realistic constraints such as jet speed (yes even at 1/4 speed or something there abouts), no player markings, ammo limits, cover, and maybe even "gamified" fuel limits there should be no issue having a bad ass jet buzzing around above for a few attack runs every once in a while.

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I don't see what all the fuss is about having jets in game that are slower than their real life counter parts. It's a video game gents. So long as it feels awesome and still looks pretty awesome, then why not?

 

If the team can work around all of those other issues(map size, airstrips, etc) and a way to have jets that fly say, 1/4 of their real life speed, that works for me.

 

So, a stall speed of 45mph for an A-10 and attack runs of @ 75mph works for you?  They'd look like they were hovering, helos are twice that fast.

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So, a stall speed of 45mph for an A-10 and attack runs of @ 75mph works for you?  They'd look like they were hovering, helos are twice that fast.

 

Technicals and motorcycles are not gonna be driving 160 km/h either.

 

Squad has a fantastic engine, great big maps, ofcourse its possible to make jets work well in this game so its fun for everyone. The great viewdistance is not problem its a bonus. i trust the dev's are up for this job.

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So, a stall speed of 45mph for an A-10 and attack runs of @ 75mph works for you?  They'd look like they were hovering, helos are twice that fast.

 

 

 

So you're just going to pick the slowest jet and take my random ball park suggestion of 1/4 literally? haha I said something like that or there abouts. Obviously I am no dev and tinkering will need to be done in order to find that sweet spot.

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"I understand that your argument that 'X is a bad idea' is a valid argument based in facts and reasoning, however I will argue that you are wrong because I posit that there exists a valid counter-argument which I have not found yet."

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So you're just going to pick the slowest jet and take my random ball park suggestion of 1/4 literally? haha I said something like that or there abouts. Obviously I am no dev and tinkering will need to be done in order to find that sweet spot.

 

Well, yeah, the slowest jet is the one that is easiest to fit in a small map. I fly almost exclusively in ARMA, where I don't think the speeds are quite accurate either, and there jets look fairly goofy already, and there's lots of room both available and needed to turn around in. The main problem with reduced speed is that you are also reducing the turn radius and planes start being able to turn on a dime, which is both wrong looking and bad for gameplay. IRL, it takes a while to make a pass, turn around and come back for another, not just Brrrrt, flip a 180 and Brrrt again 30 seconds later.

 

I'm not advocating for a full on sim, but at least make it look and feel real, not cartoony like in the BF series.

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People asking for jets so that they can turn infantry into cannon fodder. Sounds like a fun game for the majority of people! Thanks "realism".

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^Cheer up, sweetheart. Airframes won't be put into the game if there isn't a way to counter them by other means; think about it for a few seconds. Project Reality has many maps with fast-air assets. It's balanced. It adds to the experience.

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People asking for jets so that they can turn infantry into cannon fodder. Sounds like a fun game for the majority of people! Thanks "realism".

 

Jets are fast, they can't see people on the ground, they gonna have to rely on intel. Jets are vulnerable to enemy jets, stationary AA(you build near FOBs), manpads, AA vehicles. Jets are more danger to vehicles(tanks, APCs etc), than to infantry people. Jets in PR work fine - simples

 

Attack choppers, well, thats another story, they would be the ones hammering infantry, and they don't really need intel to attack ground targets. They fly low and can hover at unreachable position, thus evade and ignore many AAs in the area.

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Would like to see jets, but not linked to tickets. Too many PR battles where lose from players losing assets. Would like the linked to resources. Going to be a long time coming.

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As a player who has flown jets for -maybe- hundreds of hours, both on public servers and organized tournaments (CATA veteran here) i'd say we definitely need them. I know they are already on developers' to-do list and i know this thread is 3 months old but i just want to share my opinion:

TLDR: If implemented correctly, jets add realism, depth, immersion to the gameplay. Teams working together and communicating with each other will be rewarded even more ingame when it comes to jets and CAS support. And since Squad is a game which aims to reward teamwork and communication, i don't see why they shouldn't be added. 

The remaining part is written for people who either haven't played PR, or haven't played in an organized tournament, or haven't dedicated too much time for jets in PR or haven't played against or in a a team with good CAS support. 


1) From a realism perspective: 

Most of the CAS support in Afghanistan for NATO and ANA between 2001 and 2014 was provided by fighter and CAS jets. Again,fighter jets or CAS jets are widely used by every army imaginable and on every imaginable target, for example an a-10 strafing run against a single taliban fighter/commander here:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f7_1347368336 

 

F-16 providing CAS with canons in Afghanistan here:

 

 

Moreover, fighter and CAS aircraft are used by Syrian Arab Army against every opposition target, USAF jets are deployed over Syria and Iraq and provide direct CAS support to everyone fighting against ISIS, Russian Airforce uses jets instead of assault choppers in support of SAA, Saudis use them against Houthis in Yemen etc.

So, in a way, placing jets in asymmetrical maps make even more sense than placing assault choppers.Because they have longer ranges IRL, higher durability (not a single jet was shot down by Insurgents/Rebels in Iraq, Afganistan, with the only exception of Syrian Arab Army jets.), they can loiter for longer periods of time around target area etc.So their presence shouldn't be limited to vehicle warfare type of maps. 

Their relative invulnerability could be countered in squad with long rearmament, landing and take off times. And with the exception of su-25 and a-10, jets dont't carry much ammo, a few jdams or antitank missiles at most. In comparison to a RPG kit we have, that's tiny. 

2) Gameplaywise,

the immersion it brings to the PR was unbelievable imo, both from ground perspective and pilots perspective, lasing a target and the watching a friendly aircraft coming down from sky, deploying flares and firing a missile or dropping a JDAM was super cool to watch. It was fun to organize as a SL and the feeling you had as pilot, after destroying a tank, costing enemy 22 tickets, and reliveing your ground troops was extraordinary.

Also it adds another layer to the gameplay, in organized tournament  maps, or on pub matches with decent teams, the armor squads always had to advance in the envelope of AAA, lonewolfing with armor  was too risky as long as there were enemy jets in the air, when a CAS was requested, pilots  asked about the presence of Antiaircraft vehicles to the lasing ground troops,sometimes you had to attack targets that were covered by friendly AA to save a flag/friendly infantry squad etc. And sometimes you were ordered to execute a dangerous CAS run by your SL or commander to save the match.

So you saw organized stuff like an infantry squad spending their last TOW missile on a Tunguska AAA, instead of other 5 MBTs/IFVs approaching to their position,to pave way for a CAS run, and then CAS came and stopped an armored attack on a critical flag. Teams had to time their attacks by taking enemy AC into consideration. For instance delaying an attack until enemy jets were downed or initiating an assault when your jets were airborne was common practice.

Yes, assault choppers could do that too, but they were always easy or easier targets for MBTs, IFVs, 0.50 cals so they always had to employ weird attacking tactics, ( a 90 degree dive from the top for example). I believe it will be the same issue when they are added. They will be too weak for combined arm maps.

Also assault choppers could easily lonewolf, since they were slower, they have more advanced optics, a wider range of weapons at their disposal it's easier for them to look out for targets on their own( just as in IRL) jets however, as will be explained below, require a highler level of teamwork and couldn't be used as lonewolf assets.

3) As for jet vs jet combats, they were, unlike what you may think, extremely stressful, punishing engagements which were very fun at the same time. Evading an enemy jet once he was on your 6 was extremely hard, so you had to rely on your wingman or friendly AAA to shake him off, 

You had to scan the skies all round you 24/7, you had to think before engaging an assault run, egress and ingress routes, you had to listen for spotted enemy jets and where were they spotted, you had to adjust your altitude in order to avoid detection if you were a CAS pilot flying against fighter jets, some jets were superior than others etc.

So there was a lot of tactics, teamwork, experience and skill involved in air to air combat.

4) Last but not least, jets always required teamwork to have an impact on battlefield,and likewise, you needed teamwork to negate their effect on the battlefield. Jets, unlike bf series, were not assets that could have been used for lonewolfing.
Jets needed friendly laser targets and/or intel from ground tropps to take out targets, you had to listen to the infantry squad leaders to make a difference, against skilled pilots you needed ground troops' or friendly jets assistance once you were in trouble. And ground forces required higher levels of teamwork to advance and assault on a position, are there enemy jets airborne, were they shot down, did they land to rearm, do we have AAA cover, how good are their pilots are performing etc.

In short, they added another dimension and depth to the battlefield and gameplay of PR.And this dimension was added on a relatively primitive engine, bf 2 engine, an engine with terrible limitations. Imagine what would Squad developers will be able to accomplish, with a brand new engine, in which nothing is "hardcoded".

Edited by Kruder

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your realism perspective doesn't make sense and some points are flat out lies

"So, in a way, placing jets in asymmetrical maps make even more sense than placing assault choppers.Because they have longer ranges IRL, higher durability (not a single jet was shot down by Insurgents/Rebels in Iraq, Afganistan, with the only exception of Syrian Arab Army jets.), they can loiter for longer periods of time around target area etc.So their presence shouldn't be limited to vehicle warfare type of maps. "

yeah, because the military doesn't like to fight fair. It's not good news for balance. And helis have better loiter and cooperation ability with ground targets by far. Aircraft like the AC-130 or B-1 are second. Fast Jets have almost 0 loiter ability.

what the fuck is an "assault chopper" anyways.

 

So all these people saying "well we can just make jets fly slower"

why is that not realistic? because then ground assets can engage them. your average BMP-2 given proper view distances and zoom would have no problem lighting up a F-16 flying at 1/4 speed. A jet's main armor is it's speed. Nerf this, and you end up with a lot of unrealistic things happen.

Edited by trotskygrad

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