Mursh

Militia and Russians look too similar

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Militia and Russians look too similar. This is a game and for the sake of making it fun, the silhouettes need to be distinct enough to identify. The differences are way to subtle at a distance and when the game goes live the team kills are going to go through the roof. I almost never TK on the US vs Insurgents, but on Russian maps I tk and hesitate constantly.

Yes I know you can look on your map and that you should be situationally aware, but that shouldn't be nearly the only way to distinguish players.


Thanks

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While you are right they can be a little difficult to tell apart from a distance, you will learn the differences in time, along with map awareness things will get easier.

Also the Russians will be equipped with scopes soon, making the weapon silhouettes more noticeably different for the militia and allowing the Russians better ability to scout targets.

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If you see someone and are not sure whether you should engage them and risk TK'ing here's what you do: 

 

1) Don't shoot because you have no idea if they're friendly.

 

2) Check out the differences between outfits of the 2 factions. Does he look like your squad mate? Don't shoot him.

 

3) Ask your SL or another friendly to check them out and try to verify (Binocs, scopes, etc) 

 

4) Check your map.

 

In the current state of the game, 9 times out of 10 if you look at them directly (without leaning, I've found) and you see no name, shoot them. Now there's cases where their name will not pop up even though they're friendly. Only use it as a last resort. 

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I am going to post this video where I died because I checked if my friendly was an enemy or not - at point blank range - and he did not. It was quite a funny situation for myself where I, indeed, almost did shoot him, but I knew I needed to check and hold back. I think it is a great element of the game.

 

I do not believe they should change the uniforms as they work extremely well in this terrain and foliage - it makes perfect common sense as to why they would be used. 

 

Trigger discipline and target identification are important aspects of this game, if you don't want to team kill.

 

Skip to 50 seconds if you have less than 30 seconds of your time to spare.

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I use my map and never have a problem with it,
it takes getting used to but thats kind of like following rules of engagement,
in real life they don't just open fire on anyone that looks like a target without telling anyone else in their squad that they see an enemy

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I do love the models, they all look fantastic. It is true that I never played PR much (less than 10 hours) and I am not suggesting they change anything drastically. However, I am not just a casual noob complaining. It wasn't just me who has been tking more, I have also been getting tked a ton more. If i come up behind an enemy with his back turned and can not see his face or gun its unnecessarily difficult to determine if he is friendly or not. I have many hours logged in Red Orchestra 2 which have some very similar models, yet I never had an issue. 

 

I am new and know it will get better with experience, but as a new player I feel like improvements can be made and small changes in the right places make all the difference when it comes to gameplay. Glad to hear about the scopes coming, I hope that will make things better. I am sure that the devs want this game to grow more than PR did and that means removing as many small annoyances as possible. PR was pretty niche and was a hard game to get into partly because the community was small and not all that inclusive. I just don't want new players to get intimidated and frustrated and leaving early. I was also a early investor in Natural Selection 2, I wish they had taken more steps to help new players before the community whittled away to nothing but a few hardcore fans over time.

 

Thanks for reading and for the feedback!

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In real life, engaging actual human targets with lethal force is sort of a big deal, so thats part of the reason why I dont mind pressing a key to ID someone in game. Firstly, if they are far away enough to see but not close enough to ID correctly right away by eyesight, use your map. Seriously. Secondly, you should try to normally be near your squad leader or even maybe somebody with a magnified optic of some sort. Notify them of the people you see and ask them to scope them out for you.

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come on man you have a map which has every soldiers position clearly marked, pressing M and observing can't be too much of a task.

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come on man you have a map which has every soldiers position clearly marked, pressing M and observing can't be too much of a task.

 

It certainly can if you're in close combat and have to identify every time someone pops up 2 meters infront of you.

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Here's a suggestion thread about the same thing - http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/7565-camo-problem-russians-militia/

 

I'm going echo what I said in that thread.

 

Having something in the game that's only purpose is to be learnt, like the distinction between the two uniforms, isn't helpful to anyone and will only cause newer players to make more mistakes.

 

If the Militia colour palette had tans and browns added for things like webbing and boots it would sort out the problem pretty well without ruining the effectiveness of the Militia camouflage.

 

And with the whole map checking thing, you don't always have the opportunity to look at your map without dying. Fool's Road is relatively open currently, but if urban maps are added in the same setting then this identification problem would be multiplied.

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It really isn't so difficult to ID the enemies forces, when playing as either RUS or MIL. Maybe slow down? Be a bit more methodical in how you move and approach? Once you start engaging thought and have patience, it becomes blaringly obvious who is who. 

 

Same goes for RUS and MIL being camouflaged against the greenery. Just take your time

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It certainly can if you're in close combat and have to identify every time someone pops up 2 meters infront of you.

Bruh, local comms range currently is 20 meters.

Use it! No response, dude looks at you and gives you the mean mug, SMOKE that guy! If its a TK then at least you took action to TRY and clarify.

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come on man you have a map which has every soldiers position clearly marked, pressing M and observing can't be too much of a task.

come steam release it will be interesting to see how many people actually do this

my prediction.......... there will be so many team kills that something will change

at the moment most of the players are die hard PR mil sim people

so whilst I agree with you ...I think sheer numbers are going to change it....

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The fun part about this game is that it requires you to develop different skills in order to be effective. That means you'll die a lot at first and you'll make a lot mistakes. This is not one of those games you can hop in and learn all the tricks in a couple of hours. Check your map, work on your situational awareness and think before you shoot. You'll see how you become better and better over time.

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Most of the problem occurs when things get hectic. I truly try to use my map and communicate as much as possible, but when you are assaulting a FOB or defending your own it is just too hard to tell the difference. You have either allies or enemies spawning in random locations near you and quick ID is pretty important. There is no time to hesitate in these situations. Again, this is only a minor complaint against the militia vs russian matches, i have zero difficulty with any other factions. Like Deadduck said above, most all of the people playing currently are either PR vets or at least like me and are very serious about the game. Yet we are already having Tk issues, its going to be a nightmare when the game goes live and the rush of new players starts. There will also be a steady influx of new players from that point on, we want to retain those new players. This game needs a lot of players to keep servers full, we can't afford to run players off over something that really doesn't add to the game in a meaningful way.

 

After playing again last night, I think I may know something that could help a lot in a indirect way. I was helping assault a FOB with down allies from another squad around it. On my map it looked like I had allies in the location so I was going in cautiously. However they were dead and the enemy were either crouched or laying down around my dead allies. So basically my map showed allies, they were in a different squad so I didn't know they were down and worse of all their name tags were still hovering around the enemy, making them appear allies. When you have a few allies down waiting for medic and the enemy is around them, you have no way to tell on your map at a glance and will mostly assume you are looking at a ally.

 

I think that if downed allies had a map indicator that changed to represent that they are down, it would help tremendously. Not only would you and your SL have a better ideal the moment someone is down without adding radio chatter; a map indicator would help the medics a lot too. If I had looked at my map and saw nothing but wounded soldiers, I would have went in hot and had a pretty different out come.

 

I understand that in real life things are hectic and such, but this is a game that is meant to be fun. It is not meant to be a completely hardcore Military SIM. It has already thrown pure realism out the door with floating name tags, magic appearing maps, spawning from thin air around a radio, infinite ammo boxes... ect. This game is meant to have a learning curve that places it between BF2 and ARMA. Again, I am not saying we should make this a red vs blue shirt type of thing. Just small enhancements that make it easier to identify. Either, all Russians wear helmets and the Militia all where hats or give all of one team a distinct style back pack or some simple effective solution like brassards.

 

I go back to Natural Selection 2 again, and wish they had addressed things early instead of ignore the minor problems that keep new players out. Within a year of NS2 being released, mostly due to its high and confusing learning curve, there were less than 10 active servers and they were all filled with only clan guys. Most of those clans used teamspeak only and either flat out ignored new players or even yelled at and kicked them. The vets are always going to dominate new players, but they shouldn't be the only ones who can identify friend or foe.

 

 

Thanks again for the discussion everyone, so what do you think about the map indicator suggestion?

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This is a major problem for me, being colourblind slight variations of colour are impossible for me to see. so that leaves pretty much the name to go by. It wouldnt be so bad if one wore helmets and the others maskes but militia wear helmets too.

 

"lol look at your map" isn't a solution, if you cannot tell the difference between an enemy and an ally, thats bad game design. But meh, the only solution to it is to avoid maps where those two factions fight.

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This is a major problem for me, being colourblind slight variations of colour are impossible for me to see. so that leaves pretty much the name to go by. It wouldnt be so bad if one wore helmets and the others maskes but militia wear helmets too.

 

"lol look at your map" isn't a solution, if you cannot tell the difference between an enemy and an ally, thats bad game design. But meh, the only solution to it is to avoid maps where those two factions fight.

 

The actual uniforms are quite different but the helmets really make the silhouettes look similar, so I agree that removing helmets or switching to older steel helmets for Militia would help

 

As for colour blind options, hopefully something can be done with filters to help down the line since it's a lot more common than most people think.

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There are lots of new players and tk will happen due to confusion. My first round I had no idea what the militia would look like in game. As it was in the dark forest spotting enemy was hard. Spotting your own side was bad enough.

Squad really should have a graphic of the different factions at round start to help the new players. Over time we'll all learn the difference but starting out it's a lot to take in for those new to a game so focused on teamplay.

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Militia and Russians look too similar. This is a game and for the sake of making it fun, the silhouettes need to be distinct enough to identify. The differences are way to subtle at a distance and when the game goes live the team kills are going to go through the roof. I almost never TK on the US vs Insurgents, but on Russian maps I tk and hesitate constantly.

Yes I know you can look on your map and that you should be situationally aware, but that shouldn't be nearly the only way to distinguish players.

Thanks

Totaly agree. Much differences will make the game better.. IMO

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In my opinion the militia should not wear helmets. It doesnt really fit with their style. 

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IF you hang off the shirt tails of your SL (not a particularly clever tactic, imo).

IF said SL can help you out at the time (and is not too busy dealing with the rest of the squad, and other things).

IF the enemy is not all over the joint, rendering any info given to you by others as out-of-date by the time it all happens.

IF your teammate can/wants to help you at the time (peeps are already talking about non-communicative teamates).

IF the enemy is not camping your teamates dead bodies.

IF using your map does not render you dead because the other guy can tell what team you are on and pings you first.

IF . . . i could go on. . .

 

Bruh, local comms range currently is 20 meters.

Use it! No response, dude looks at you and gives you the mean mug, SMOKE that guy! If its a TK then at least you took action to TRY and clarify.

 

thats such a dumb simplistic appoach, i cannot believe you actually said it.

 

 

IF this was the RL, as many appear think it should be heavily based on (or at least use "RL" as some sort of basis to argument), then i would have far greater resolution, depth perception, parallax, peripheral vision, night vision, ability to deal with contrast, hearing and overall situational awareness than i could ever possibly hope to have in a game. Yes, "use the map"/"use coms", i agree but the whole patronising "OMGz! use map!! L2P" etc. is becoming tired.

 

IF everyone that plays this game does so exactly by the rules and considers all the other players when perfoming an action, and are all willing to put thier game (and their safety) to the side for the long moments required to help another squaddie out with deciphering comms, then this game will be great. but i cannot see that happening all that quickly. too many things can mess up such an idealistic approach.

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