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Valmont

AK-12

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Low-low quality in terms of engineering, design and production, they look cool but any other gun can outdo them.

 

Source? I'm pretty sure the XM8 killed the m4 in pretty much everything?

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XM8s plastic would melt, they fixed it but after that it weighed more than the M4 so they scrapped the XM8.

 

So they scrapped it because it weighed more. Weird. 

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All of these guns are amazing. But military don't need amazing guns. Military needs a rifle which is:

1. Cheap
2. Easy to produce (cheap to produce)

3. Easy to maintain (cheap to maintain)

4. Reliable (difficult to break)

5. Meeting requerements (Only meeting, nobody give a fuck if your rifle beats concurents, who meet requirements too, if military want a rifle that accurate enoough for 400 meters, they won't buy a rifle accurate for 600 meters, even if more accurate rifle is only 2 bucks more expensive).
6. Cheap

 

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All of these guns are amazing. But military don't need amazing guns. Military needs a rifle which is:

1. Cheap

2. Easy to produce (cheap to produce)

3. Easy to maintain (cheap to maintain)

4. Reliable (difficult to break)

5. Meeting requerements (Only meeting, nobody give a fuck if your rifle beats concurents, who meet requirements too, if military want a rifle that accurate enoough for 400 meters, they won't buy a rifle accurate for 600 meters, even if more accurate rifle is only 2 bucks more expensive).

6. Cheap

 

 

well tbh only reason G11 died was reunification.

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Low-low quality in terms of engineering, design and production, they look cool but any other gun can outdo them.

 

Which is why the XM8 beat the M4 in terms of stoppages when they tested them? How much worse is the M4 designed then?

 

 

 

XM8s plastic would melt, they fixed it but after that it weighed more than the M4 so they scrapped the XM8.

 

Sounds like a dumb excuse to me. Probably is. Polymer and plastic are two different things btw.

 

And who scrapped the XM8?

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G11 as cancelled mostly due to the unification of Germany and Soviet State breakup.

 

After the reunification, there were several treaties Germany had to comply to and significantly downsize it's army and military budget, so they chose the more conventional G36.

 

XM8, IIRC was simply too fragile.

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I didn't realize Squad took place in 2016, not the near future. But okay, it's obvious the Ak-12 is going to become standard issue for the contract soldiers in the RF.

Lol no, as they've said. Besides, I don't think they've been fielded and have actually seen enough combat, neither have they been set in stone for AK-74M replacement works.

 

It seems to fit the near-future role since the US Army is completely fitted with M4A1s, but the thing is that it's pretty been confirmed IRL to be a weapon that WILL be used. AK-12, naw. Essentially we are looking at weapons that are being used, and look set to replace older equipment, not weapons that are merely promised to be replacements.

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Did the xm8 fail because of anything else but a high production price?

 

I think if they shot it enough it would literally start melting

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Yep.

 

Money was the reason it was cancelled. Like every other competitor. 

 

"Other issues were that the army has a legislated obligation to prefer U.S.-based manufacturers, and that a previous agreement with Colt Defense required the army to involve Colt in certain small-arms programs. The XM8 program was put on hold in 2004. The exact reason why this happened is a matter of debate; some combination of the aforementioned technical issues, funding restrictions, and outside pressure being involved."

 

Source the lovely wikipedia.

 

Anyway I think we are we beyond off-topic now. 

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Money was the reason it was cancelled. Like every other competitor. 

 

"Other issues were that the army has a legislated obligation to prefer U.S.-based manufacturers, and that a previous agreement with Colt Defense required the army to involve Colt in certain small-arms programs. The XM8 program was put on hold in 2004. The exact reason why this happened is a matter of debate; some combination of the aforementioned technical issues, funding restrictions, and outside pressure being involved."

 

Source the lovely wikipedia.

 

Anyway I think we are we beyond off-topic now. 

But also because it was shitty. 

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Check out the arms west Jim Sullivan version of his AR15. Fires on the closed bolt on semi automatic, open bolt on automatic. You can accurate automatic fire at 100 meters, and probably one handed. Such a wonderful machine, I want one... 

 

 All of those weapons failed for reasons well documented. There is a reason nobody has replaced the M4 format for rifles. There are many reasons HK, FN, and everybody else has copied Jim Sullivans design. Most of those weapons were gimmicks, including the XM8, where the weapons they were supposed to replace were either replaced by something better, or upgraded to that quality. It's always cheaper to do that than to field a brand spanking new prototype rifle. You want something that is battle proven and then improve on that. 

 

 Remember that M4 sherman? They were beasts from 1941 to 1944. Not so much after facing the Panther and King Tiger. But you put in a 17 pounder, a 76mm with HVAP, and even a 90mm (Called the M36) and you wrecked them things. They didn't completely replace that Sherman until something more substantial came along in the way of the M48 Patton. 

 

 Which you could apply to the AK12. Performing exactly the same as the AK74, but it looks snazzier. There isn't any sort of AR15 type rifle (XM8 included) that outperforms the current Colt, or HK, or FN, versions of the AR15. Even the Hk416 and FN SCAR do not outperform it significantly. You basically have a bunch of weapons that look the same. SOCOM stopped buying the MK16 real quick. Russia isn't going to buy the Ak12 I feel, because of that same reason. The AK has the same problem the M4 does. 

 

 Look, the next innovation of weapons will be case less ammunition rifles that does it good. 

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Check out the arms west Jim Sullivan version of his AR15. Fires on the closed bolt on semi automatic, open bolt on automatic. You can accurate automatic fire at 100 meters, and probably one handed. Such a wonderful machine, I want one... 

 

 All of those weapons failed for reasons well documented. There is a reason nobody has replaced the M4 format for rifles. There are many reasons HK, FN, and everybody else has copied Jim Sullivans design. Most of those weapons were gimmicks, including the XM8, where the weapons they were supposed to replace were either replaced by something better, or upgraded to that quality. It's always cheaper to do that than to field a brand spanking new prototype rifle. You want something that is battle proven and then improve on that. 

 

 Remember that M4 sherman? They were beasts from 1941 to 1944. Not so much after facing the Panther and King Tiger. But you put in a 17 pounder, a 76mm with HVAP, and even a 90mm (Called the M36) and you wrecked them things. They didn't completely replace that Sherman until something more substantial came along in the way of the M48 Patton. 

 

 Which you could apply to the AK12. Performing exactly the same as the AK74, but it looks snazzier. There isn't any sort of AR15 type rifle (XM8 included) that outperforms the current Colt, or HK, or FN, versions of the AR15. Even the Hk416 and FN SCAR do not outperform it significantly. You basically have a bunch of weapons that look the same. SOCOM stopped buying the MK16 real quick. Russia isn't going to buy the Ak12 I feel, because of that same reason. The AK has the same problem the M4 does. 

 

 Look, the next innovation of weapons will be case less ammunition rifles that does it good. 

True story. 

I personally forsee, in the near/near distant future, the US infantry moving more in the direction of highly accurized automatic rifles. The M27 blew people's minds in the Marine Corps, so much that it isn't even allowed to be used during yearly rifle qualification. The rifle alone has begun revision of the Marine Corp's infantry doctrine, and they are reverting more towards a WW2-esque style of fire and maneuver that is less dependent on light machine guns. 

This is totally and completely off topic, but I could discuss automatic rifles/machine guns and their employment for days and months and years. 

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Yeah, marines were surprised by the existing of fully automatic service rifles. Welcome to the XXI century.

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Yeah, marines were surprised by the existing of fully automatic service rifles. Welcome to the XXI century.

Can't tell if troll. 

No automatic rifle in U.S. military history has performed like the M27. Plus, when you're basing doctrine off of rifle squads (the most central and basic element of warfare that exists) carrying light machine guns for 30 years, it requires getting back to a certain train of thought as far was infantry warfighting is concerned. 

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Accurate automatic fire would be the ideal body armor solution. Those things can't take a whole lot of rounds and if you can get dozens of 5.56 on target at 200m you are going to be just fine. I know the marines are really loving the IAR. 

 

 Honestly I could see the LMG get phased out by everybody in the squad having an IAR weapon. Like, just imagining how useful the Arm west M4 would be for the US it is just crazy they haven't adopted it already. I am sure the only thing keeping them back is Jim won't like to sell his secrets out to the manufacturers that would produce the weapons. It isn't hard to beat the 4000 dollar price tag for a Colt M4a1. 

 

 Now, I know the AK12 is just a nice shiny polymer Ak74, but is the Eastern peoples getting some of that IAR in their inventories? I don't know of any sort of thing like that unless the RPK counts. 

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