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Z-trooper

Kits, Roles, Limits and Steam launch

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That is what I have gathered. It does not make FTs more viable than independent squads, though. Especially RPs are important for small squads operating behind enemy lines, without friendly supply lines.

Squads using FTs to fill multiple roles also creates a signalling issue and further stresses the SL bottleneck, which can make it negatively affect squad organization. If I make a squad named "Infantry", then players joining my squad have expectations as to what they will be doing. Players self-select based on squad names. This means that players joining my squad who are then assigned roles that did not meet their expectations may not be experienced in those roles, and players that are experienced in those roles may not choose to join the "Infantry" squad, as they can't tell that I have FTs filling those roles. I will then have to spend time and effort on assigning these roles to the players who want them, and then as people leave and join I'm required to keep re-organizing. Meanwhile, it's not immediately apparent to the rest of the team that these FTs I have actually exist, so there's now an increased potential for a duplication of effort. Whereas the existence of a squad called "FOB Hunters" or "Recon" makes it immediately apparent to the rest of the team that those roles are filled, and that they have someone they can contact to cooperate with. FTs simply do not signal this to the team. With FTs, communication will have to go from the FTL, to the SL, to the other squad's SL and then back again, or vice versa. This generally leads to a lot of half-assery, not more teamwork.

Seems like some have the wrong idea of how FTs are supposed to work. Read similar elsewhere.

They will learn though. Don't think you need to fear this.

It's not FT1 go FOB-hunting and FT2 go recce (..other side of map) .

It's more "contact!, FT1 suppress and FT2 flank." You still move as a squad.

The other stuff is better off for smaller squads. Then you don't need FTs.

I fail to see the downside of FTs if used as a stay-together-squad.

At least this is how I intend to play it and it will be successful.

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I like everything except getting the ACOG option as SL at 8 people. I think 6 people would be better based on 25v25 servers right now. Being able to lock the squad at 6 and still have the necessary kits to fill the roles needed is a good thing.

I'm imagining playing Logar PAAS with 4 squads of 6 would actually be enjoyable. :)

 

I'm willing to try that. SL ACOG now unlocks at 6.

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The problem with global limitation is that you always have that one squad misusing the limited kit.

It is much better to restrict based on squads. Only. (but again I will wait and see how this is done)

Remove the limited kit when a person is kicked or leaves a squad. (you can't grab a limit kit and then leave a squad to then go use your kit lone wolf) This is a necessary mechanic that prevents kit abuse we see in PR.

Squads of 2 sniper grabbing a kit from another squad.


if nothing is done to prevent that abuse, then the entire point of the restriction is circumvented. 

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Looks good for going into EA. Nice thinking.

 

I don't understand this correct i'm afraid. The Insurgents don't have a GP25 anymore? Like the attachment is gone completely?

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If you truely want to encourage teamwork and teamplay I would not limit medics to 3. and then GL to 4.


You should be encouraging if not forcing Medics to be overused. 

Medics unlocked after 2 people. I feel would be better. 

that way an idea squad unlock progression would be 

SL

Medic
Medic

Grenade

The forced medics slots only promotes teamwork and squad play (effective medic use)

and so on instead of


SL

infantry

Medic

Grenade

 

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The problem with global limitation is that you always have that one squad misusing the limited kit.

It is much better to restrict based on squads. Only. (but again I will wait and see how this is done)

Remove the limited kit when a person is kicked or leaves a squad. (you can't grab a limit kit and then leave a squad to then go use your kit lone wolf) This is a necessary mechanic that prevents kit abuse we see in PR.

Squads of 2 sniper grabbing a kit from another squad.

if nothing is done to prevent that abuse, then the entire point of the restriction is circumvented. 

 

We cannot possibly solve all the problems in time for EA. but if we can solve 90% of the cases, then we are happy with that. Getting the last 10% of the issues solved requires so much more work, and we are already working rediculous schedules.

 

For people actively looking to exploit something, then yes, there are holes, of course. But for all the new people coming in, this will prevent MANY (not all, but many) of them from becoming tempted to do something you guys would hate more.

 

And your other post about medics being overused... Guilty as charged. As highlighted extensively in the original post, we are taking temporary measures to make sure that the cannon fodder (they will be to you guys) have a chance to play something else than 'Respawn Simulator 2000'.

 

The following goes for many of you:

 

Can we nitpick this for you veterans and highlight all the problems it will have for you guys individually. Sure thing, but remember, these changes are not for you immediate pleasure, but to better indoctrinate the new people coming in.

 

Teach them:

 

  • More people together = more gear (Just trying to make sure people get in to squads together)
  • Factions play differently (something we have not been good at showing you founders with the limited systems and content available)
  • Make sure that there are medics around

 

If we accomplish just a few of these over the next couple of months, then the mission is a success.

 

We look at the big picture of this.

 

Like everything about this game, everything is subject to tweaking after testing.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

While I'm at it I may as well elaborate on the "explosive spam" concerns and what we are doing to counter that, as well as making your choices matter:

 

We don't want to see squads being 2 LMG + 2 Grenadier + 2 LAT + ect... This is auto include and without meaningful choices.

There will be a limit to how many of these type of kits that a squad can have, so the choice will be more like:

 

2 LMG + 1 Grenadier + 1 LAT or 2 LMG + 2 LAT... depending on your squads role. (System is still being implemented, OP will be updated once finalized).

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I understood everything you said initially and the things you reiterated. And I appreciate that something is being done rather than nothing, I agree on those points for sure 100%. This move is absolutely necessary and I am VERY gratefull to see devs being aware and conscious of these factors.


As for the abuse cases, of course, The goal here is to minimize not remove I understand that point. coming from PR though, that abuse is seen almost every match, Thus my concern :) but of course it is the first iteration. :)

 

My overall goal is for the integrity of the game. Putting 1 medic in a squad and then Grenade launchers seem to encourage respawn simulator as the access to medics is very casual. Medic classes right now are not easy to use. They require a little more attention to detail than the infantry class. The assumption I have is that EA users on the medic class will be bad/new. Thus respawning (like it was before medics and still now in many games) will be the quicker way to get into the action again. Thus based on that assumption an over emphasis and easer access to the medic class means that more players will be communicating For the medic, calling for its use, and thus hopefully waiting for a revive. For me I think an over emphasis on the medic class (opening its availability/forced use) (WHICH is also up to squad leaders as well) I think is a good move towards EA building teamwork integrated class set ups.

but then again I also think the respawn times are almost too low and respawning into the action is too easy, The current times devalue medics and re spawning simulator is the effective way most people are playing. I can only assume that gets worse with EA.  ( I don't have any data on this though ). So for me, If the game is already respawn heavy (I am guilty of this as well), Than EA will break that balance farther. So my fear (maybe incorrectly placed) makes me feel that increase the respawn time, and spam medics XD

The only times I see medics being used properly is when a good medic player uses them (rare) or when SL is continually asking for it. Both cases are sadly not as common as they should be. Not to mention most players are running around in the open meaning that reviving is practically impossible. because they are not punished for such playing (see threads here from medics about this XD)



TLDR, Basically No matter what is done medic wise, the move is going to be positive and good for the game. 100% no doubt on that. :) I just really would like to see medics be at the forefront of every squad as I believe it contributes to core aspects of the game more than a infantry kit or GL.

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Mellanbror, the discussion was specifically about squads using FTs for niche function (Such as FOB hunting) instead of dedicated squads.

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No grenadier kit for INS at all and 2 per squad now for US????? Uh, hello? Game over.... Now we get to look forward to twice the nade spam that already exists. Noob tube heaven.

Yeah I prefer things like gl/at being limited and having to use them wisely,these are the most devastating weapons in the game right now. constant explosion spam may be worse then unlimited sniper kits lol. we will see how it plays out tho.

 

The insurgents get double the RPGs instead, which will come with FRAG and HEAT rounds, the US get less LATs, but more UGLs. The only thing that is really making UGL spam a thing is the lack of implementation of ammo resources at FOBs. Right now, you can resupply unlimited ammo, that will not be the case in the near future.

 

Looks nice, but in my opinion the insurgents kits shouldn't be nerfed too much as it is more realistic to have small squad( 3-4 players) but still being able to have some specialized kits.

 

They aren't, they are getting double the reloadable rocket launcher with each carrying 3 rockets of either FRAG or HEAT quicker than the US gets access to 2 LATs. The LAW is going to be updated to actually represent it's real life counterpart, currently the LAW is just a faster, more accurate RPG FRAG round.

 

Will it be possible to join a 8/9 man squad(assuming a full server), take a specialized kit, leave the squad and still retain your kit? Basically lonewolfing without having to be the SL.

 

Several of us brought this up before this post was even made, we just don't have time to solve this issue at the moment. Personally, I do want to see some sort of system that takes away the special kit if you leave a squad.

 

would be cool to see more exploration into having different kits available for the squad when you're playing as different factions, you could have british sections have access to 1x gpmg and 1x lmg instead of 2x lmg, us army only having 2 m240s available to the entire team etc

 

pls give the ruskies the rpk74m and not a pkm for the section

 

This is what we are doing, this is one of the reasons for this system.

 

The problem with global limitation is that you always have that one squad misusing the limited kit.

It is much better to restrict based on squads. Only. (but again I will wait and see how this is done)

Remove the limited kit when a person is kicked or leaves a squad. (you can't grab a limit kit and then leave a squad to then go use your kit lone wolf) This is a necessary mechanic that prevents kit abuse we see in PR.

Squads of 2 sniper grabbing a kit from another squad.

if nothing is done to prevent that abuse, then the entire point of the restriction is circumvented. 

 

Z-Trooper already addressed this.

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-snip-

 

All good feedback, and valid concerns. All the feedback appreciated.

 

To you veterans I promise you that we will be watching this VERY closely over the coming weeks and months.

 

We are not perfect, but we have put a lot of thought in to these things, we want to see how it plays out.

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I don't know about you guys, but I'm excited.

This developer makes my day even though I haven't played yet

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The problem with global limitation is that you always have that one squad misusing the limited kit.

It is much better to restrict based on squads. Only. (but again I will wait and see how this is done)

Remove the limited kit when a person is kicked or leaves a squad. (you can't grab a limit kit and then leave a squad to then go use your kit lone wolf) This is a necessary mechanic that prevents kit abuse we see in PR.

Squads of 2 sniper grabbing a kit from another squad.

if nothing is done to prevent that abuse, then the entire point of the restriction is circumvented.

About global. This is a good thing IMO.

I don't want to be sure that each full size squad I engage have an SVD (or else).

Makes gameplay to predictable.

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About global. This is a good thing IMO.

I don't want to be sure that each full size squad I engage have an SVD (or else).

Makes gameplay to predictable.

Valid, ish but again that assumes rigorous kit assignment which is also predictable XD

The global thing is good IF its not abused like in PR in my opinion which was a core reason I was against global.. If global or by squad both accomplish a limitation on the kit which is desired by all parties.  If the abuse case is fixed then yea.

To your point about predictability. I don't agree, There is a point to be made but.... you make many assumptions about gameplay and squads that I can't rationalize on any level.

I don't believe in a 50 vs 50 man server that 5 SVD's globally and 3 or 2 is a "balance point" worth that detailed information. Nor do I agree that when playing in a 50 vs 50 game that quality of gameplay is lost when you see a squad and say "they probably have a SVD" afterall Isn't that exactly what the INS are saying about the US? Oh they probably have ACOG or GL. both are "predictable" AND I disagree 10000% that anything in a 50v50 man game is "predictable" lol

Idk I understand that you enjoy a certain level of non-information in engagements but I doubt very much that "global vs squad" limitation would affect this to any noticeable degree outside of the raw amount in a server. 3 is less than 5, but would you tangibly notice that difference? doubtful. (assuming of course no more 2 man sniper squads like in PR)

I would rather be able to say "they might have a SVD with them" (which you would say in both cases as a proper SL would be prepared for that situation) than say "where are the lone camper squads" that you see in PR often times AND in the game currently. 

To limit or not limit is not the question. Rather Do you limit a kit based on teamwork/size (can a SL take advantage of kits Power to the SL)? or by fight for it on the server and be the first squad to grab the ultra value kit. In games there the 2nd case exits, Its less good design and more annoying. A squad can't utilize a kit they might need because Joes squad is using it first and is not using it correctly and joe squad doesn't want to communicate over squad chat. I would rather see a squad get 1 special kit, (for a MAX possible in a server being 5) than see 2 kits exist for 50 players and hoping that the guy using the kit is not horrible and abusing his valued kit. In that example though I am assuming there are less good communication players than bad, but in my experiance, (and since were talking about issues to prevent EA issues) I doubt very much the influx of new players will be the cream of the crop in terms of quality and professionalism. We don't even have that now sadly enough :/

But I understand that my opinion is not the only one :) but I do enjoy discussing these things <3 I also doubt I am being totally unbiased in this post XD 

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  •  

    MEDICS
  • Minimum 3 players in a squad

How about to lower this count to 2? And the second one can be taken after 6 players.

In PR when you join the game in the middle, sometimes all squads are full, or closed, or do not do any teamplay, so you have to create your own and sometimes it's hard to find more that one additional player at the moment, and medic is that kit that makes your two players squad efficient, so you can play untill others will join your squad, instead of waiting others at the main base (especially when the players start left your squad when they realise that you dont go anywhere without a medic). I think 3 players for medics will just makes player's life harder.

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I'm willing to try that. SL ACOG now unlocks at 6.

You're a saint! Now I hope it plays well like I'm imagining.

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We want to discourage lone wolf behavior. So creating a new squad won't really get you much fancy gear, optics, 1337 sniperz or rocket launchers.

Wait, what? This is my lifestyle.

tumblr_mhhknvi7Fm1rbwchzo1_500.jpg

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Several of us brought this up before this post was even made, we just don't have time to solve this issue at the moment. Personally, I do want to see some sort of system that takes away the special kit if you leave a squad.

 

 

 

 

 

What if, you joint a 8 men squad, get the LAT kit, leave and join a 2 men squad. You can use the kit, but if you die, you can't respaw with the LAT kit. The LAT kit is available again for the original squad. Simple considering the time expectation in the battlefield. 

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What if, you joint a 8 men squad, get the LAT kit, leave and join a 2 men squad. You can use the kit, but if you die, you can't respaw with the LAT kit. The LAT kit is available again for the original squad. Simple considering the time expectation in the battlefield. 

 

This is the PR system, which is IMO not satisfactory. It still makes it too easy to "steal" kits from a squad that actually needed the LAT or breacher or whatever.

 

I think the devs have a good long time to figure out a better way than the PR system. v1.0 is a very long time away--much further away than Early Access.

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Leave the squad=Lose the kit, get a basic Rifleman kit back with comparable ammunition to what you had with the kit you lost(Leave squad as an LMG with 1 magazine, get Rifleman kit with 1 magazine and nothing else).

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Leave the squad=Lose the kit, get a basic Rifleman kit back with comparable ammunition to what you had with the kit you lost(Leave squad as an LMG with 1 magazine, get Rifleman kit with 1 magazine and nothing else).

This is good to have as well when you can kick members from a squad, you can Open up kits from those who are misusing or hogging.

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