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Situational Awareness Suggestion Megathread!

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lol I've seen the word "immersion" so many times on this forum that I feel sick reading it again. (Nothing against OP)

Lol I can understand that. New topic: Figure out a new word for immersion. Haha

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Even though I support nametags, would an audio cue be unreasonable?

 

In RO, when you reach hero status, if you're looking at a friendly ADS you're character will say, "watch your fire", and before that if you start firing near friendlies your char screams something like, "Hes one of ours! Stop shooting you idiot!"

 

 

Something in this game that could work is something like a small radio chatter sound playing through the audio when you're aiming a friendly to simulate comms checks. When you aim at an enemy, nothing, or something like "what the...?" or "hmmm" or a different kind of sound.  It would be very subtle, and make nametags uneeded if close attention is paid.

 

Thoughts?

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Firstly, I apologize for getting my personal thoughts across mixed within the challenge to you all as I am not a wordsmith but I digrizzle...

 

What drives me crazy playing and watching fps' are the freakin nametags over someones head, Yep you are correct, it cuts out the I-word  Correct! ESPECIALLY when there name is something like VodooButtPirate. Seriously? Is this an MMORPG or the Sims? Complete immersion breaker if you ask me. I-word starts to be old, but.  First time is old for you?.  I've seen an heard from other players literally say "oh i didnt shoot him because he did/didn't have a name tag or not have to check his peripherals due to a mini map or hud. Wheere I haven't seen in SQD vids this, but haven't followed too closely lately If you hit "M" a map pops up showing just that!! :) I've seen people on other threads say they want nametags on friendlies or out to a certain distance and I ask you why? To improve communication and allow the VOIP to be used to tactics and stategy more than just spamming "who is speaking" "Me! XXX-soldier" "But where are you" "Your right side 2nd player" .... If thats your argument than how about they slightly glow when speaking perhaps? It could immitate a wave from a friend or something to that effect maybe? Can you not distinguish between an insurgent or US soldier? Yes, but between US or Between Insurgents NO  Unreadable, over. Just because you would "know them in RL" dictates you see a bouncing name (or symbology) running around 800m away either with or without having to have LOS? Game is still heavily WIP That my friend exactly is why I'm trying to bring it up! Perfect time to (other than the planning stage) if you ask me. It's like people want to be spoon fed more and more and I don't get it.  Some does, but there is also limits what game can deliver and some artificial mechanics are needed to overcome those.  I agree but I believe a floating name is not the right idea. My goal was to get smarter developer smarts type people to see if there's a better way since technology has changed since everquest.  

 

My personal suggestions to the Dev's regarding this issue would be to:

 

-remove all nametag's or hovering symbology or characters Total removing would turn the game a mess and everyone would suffer a noobs running around like headless chickens, because they couldn't ID their SQD mates. Limited visibility will be in my understanding the best compromise between gameplay and realism.  People have clothes and language to distinguish. Perhaps something like different colored glint tape you didnt need IR for? Hmmm...

 

-not display arrows on HUD of where possibly friendlies, but most definitely enemy infantry positions are I would assume the latter we can strike over in the first place, the first one will create better and more professional SQD movement and formations. This compensates the lack of training (people meet in servers first time etc.) and lack of senses we have in real life.  Ok example.  My squad is on a small hill and im looking and what I think I see is an enemy.  As i stare at the unidentifyable object my focus starts to get greater and greater on the enemy (this happens a lot correct?).  If a gernade or explosion happens right next to you and you start hearing your squad messed up you have to make a choice and it should come with a risk.  Do I keep my eyes downrange or look to my sides to see if my boys are still there.  That choice right there would start to make your heart pound! :) Cause its life or death rather than trying to only figure out what you are pretty sure is an enemy and just look at your hud to see if your team is there.  That is a good for the game yeah?

 

-a MUST would be to remove the scoreboard.  Going to a scoreboard to see if you killed someone is insanely immersion breaking I totally agree, no need any type of ingame scoreboard while round is going. End of the round stats is another topic (a minefield)  Triple Correct! :)

 

-remove the ability to communicate to anyone while you're dead, cause you're dead and dead people can't talk.  (That's the price you pay.  Not being able to sprint around the corner, die and immediately tell you're entire team where in the building they are located.) This is something that can be muted, since then many players would start to use 3rd party VOIP programs to overcome this and the teamwork and communication in SQD-game would suffer as a whole. True (another topic) but Squad is boasting its in game VOIP for no need for 3rd parties, thats their language for the game. Would people cheat and get a 3rd party? You betcha. So the challenge to smart peeps would be to figure out a way to prevent it (since it would keep Squad players using first party comm tech).

 

-the ability to crawl and reload. Try it. I hope this will implemented, but prone and crawl is the newest implementation in movement and still prototype stage

 

Then there's the "oh this is a milsim, not RL" and I totally agree!  good  youre good There's hundreds of reasons why this game isn't real life so can we please not bring that up further?  That goes for 'oh it could be in the future". Trust me, I have a lot of real world information on the topic as a whole so again, please refrain from using that as an excuse. Many here do have RL experience, some on the warzones, some from other parts of the life. Even ages are ranging from 15 to 65+ Again why because a vet brings up his creds that card gets pulled?  How else can I say my real word experience as a reference without getting multiple messages of "you're not the only vet on here a-hole"? I asked twice

 

This obviously for a "milsim", not an arcade shooter should not be acceptable so here is a challenge to the Squad community! Let's come up with serious and immersion I-word friendly suggestions that I will take the most commented on and use those for a poll once collected.  We need to stop saying that nothing can be done about it and freaking come up with something about it!!! Indeed new ideas are welcome  :) 

 

 

A few questions to be solved:

 

-What is a more immersive alternative to knowing where your squad mates are around you? Answered before Can't find it. I asked for a more i-word alternative to the norm.

 

-How to update the mini map to improve SA without displaying too much? Sorry can't understand, I'm not a native english speaker  That's a complete sentence I believe. By mini-map I mean the "M" map.  It should be a period instead of a ? since its a statement.  my bad.  :(

 

-Is there a more immersive way of knowing you killed someone than looking at a scoreboard? Answered before  Can't find it either.  Again a more i-word alternative than a scoreboard.

 

 

 

 

 

I will add more as dictates but I am very much looking forward to discussion/suggestions on a more immersive I-word HUD for Squad!  

 

 

Annnnnnnnd go! And so we indeed did. :)   :)  :) 

 

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TJeezey, on 10 Sept 2015 - 3:30 PM, said:snapback.png

I never said i was the only combat vet in this community so you need to check what you say before you type. I was ensuring someone who tried to talk to me about human senses in a combat environment what my accreditations are on the subject. Not being mean at all. However MY suggestion to you would be to read the OP's questions and make constructive suggestions on the matter. You are exactly part of the problem on why nothing changes. You simply say "man people have tried so you might as well quit." Nice attitude. I hope you are never in my squad. I've seen plenty of videos btw, thanks.

Being out of the mil a year is a tactiool salt dog warrior huh?

 

Your condescending tone (much like the one in bold) is what I was referring to in your previous post. You won't make many friends around here talking to people like that. Also, from the guy who wants people to read his OP and not put words in his mouth, don't put any in mine. I answered your OP with a legitimate response, watch videos, learn about the game THEN make suggestions. If you don't like that answer, tough cookies friend.

As for your OP questions, Desmo is doing a great job answering them, but you seem to want him to agree with you, not have a discussion about them. You're suggestions are good, but they have been talked about before on this forum. MORE THEN ONCE. Stop beating a dead horse, please. At least for the Dev.s sake because now they gotta waste their time reading through this garbage thread.

I doubt you'll get many more answers to your OP (well, any that you would agree with...) just by your attitude and responses to previous posts. So continue your flame war because I don't know if you know this already but first impressions last a long fucking time.

 

Oh snap I figured out how to multi-quote now!  How else am I supposed to say that!? I literally said not being mean at all as the second sentence. I have actually made up multiple serious suggestions and fixes so I'm not sure how I'm beating a dead horse.  Im not sure you know what that saying means... Again someone SANE please read my post and see the immediate hate to a whole thread because of my views on nametags?  I have some good shit in there and asked people to not post what you have done multiple times already.  Now THAT is beating a dead horse.

 

-TJeezey out (that means no more communication with you. You've been nothing but abusive. 

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This thread= Dead. Let's move on boys.

Please delete this. Not only is it against my multiple requests, I'm trying to get a good debate going.  Please stop trolling.

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Even though I support nametags, would an audio cue be unreasonable?

 

In RO, when you reach hero status, if you're looking at a friendly ADS you're character will say, "watch your fire", and before that if you start firing near friendlies your char screams something like, "Hes one of ours! Stop shooting you idiot!"

 

 

Something in this game that could work is something like a small radio chatter sound playing through the audio when you're aiming a friendly to simulate comms checks. When you aim at an enemy, nothing, or something like "what the...?" or "hmmm" or a different kind of sound.  It would be very subtle, and make nametags uneeded if close attention is paid.

 

Thoughts?

See now this is what im talking about!  Thanks man for contributing seriously.  I like your ADS suggestion for sure.  That gives pretty good balance to a realistic shooter.  The audio clues easily could help bridge the balance as well.  I like it! 

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I think that's a wrap....

Debate is a great thing, and not something I discourage, it encourages us to challenge the 'norm' and strive to achieve great things. However as with some conflicts, knowing when to pull the pin and to cut your losses, walk away and live to fight another day...

The end.

Nah, we're just getting started.  A few pretty new good ideas have came up of it so if you arent here to participate than leave please. You could have messaged me this.  I asked that you not post what you did so why would you do it?  

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Let me start out by saying that you had good questions and suggestions.  I'm not slamming them but again, it's bean beaten to death. I don't even really care that it's been asked many times, which is why in my first response, I merely mentioned that and pointed you to one of the existing threads.  I also made a suggestion of being able to disable certain UI elements so that everyone is happy.  That means that TJeezey can disable everything and be as immersed as he wants while others can have name tags and other elements if they wish.  Would that work for you?

 

BAHAHAHA please show me these assumptions and absolutes, please!!!  I also DID indicate that I read exsisting threads.  is this the freaking twilight zone???

Assumptions:

1) That you asked a unique question or provided a unique suggestion. Again, nothing wrong with that, it happens. What's wrong is #2

2) Assuming that the forum members owe you an explanation and a reply to these question

3) That we don't have equal or greater "real world information" than you do

4) That members of the forum and Squad players "want to be spoon fed". Also, you basically insulted anyone who disagrees with you about this.

5) You assumed that dead people can't talk, but as others have mentioned, people will just end up using Teamspeak and that will hurt the game overall.

6) You made the assumption that the game currently shows "display arrows on HUD of where enemy positions are". It does not show this. That's when Frosty2200 said it sounded like you were describing BF4.

7) While with good intention, you assumed that you'd be able to "bring all of those little discussions sprinkled everywhere into one spot". Again, a good idea, but if you've been on these forums long enough, you'd see that it doesn't work.  Only a moderator, dev, or member of significant influence (none of which apply to me or you) is going to be successful doing this.

8) And the nail in the coffin is that you made the assumption that most people were going to agree with you.  This is backed up by the fact that you argued with every person who disagreed. 

 

 

Absolutes:

1) OP: That everyone MUST refrain from saying this has been discussed before. 

2) OP: Saying "Going to a scoreboard IS INSANELY immersion breaking". Again, not a proven fact. This is just your opinion, but you state it as an absolute.

3) OP: That responding to your ideas with "this is too milsim" is not acceptable. Why isn't it acceptable? Is this a milsim? Is this an arcade shooter? No and no, so what is it? It's something in between. I argue that it is acceptable for people to disagree and say that some of your suggestions are too milsim. 

 

So you're cool with having a floating name bouncing around that makes sure that you don't shoot him?  How is that fun or challenging?

Thanks for painting me in a corner.  Again, speaking in absolutes.  So either I agree with you or I have to look like a fool who doesn't like fun or a challenge.  There are compromises to when the tags would be shown (i.e. within a certain distance, within line of sight, etc)

 

I said that i read other threads' comments about it.  You wonder why I'm caustic. How many posts have you posted answering the questions I posed? I said multiple times to leave the oh the norm is the norm comments out. Only constructive comments regarding my questions AGAIN I ask.

Everyone on these forums is free to express the opinion constructively, including yourself.  But here you are basically saying "You can only reply if you agree with me".

 

LOL You didnt read my post either did you silly?  I said there's hundred's of reason's why this isn't real life.  PLEEEAASSSEEE somebody read my post   :(

How ironic.  You're demanding everyone read your post and answer your questions yet when Unfrail made a post earlier, you completely brushed it off and clearly did not read it. Rest assured, when Unfrail makes a post, it's of high quality and has been thought out. He was making a point that it is difficult to identify players, not in real life which is what you assumed, but on a limited resolution HD screen. Again, please read everyone's posts if you want them to read yours.

 

No no no. If you're going to slander me than stop acting like a baby and say you messed up.

Here's what I messed up on:

1) replying to this thread

2) replying again to this thread

...

n) Making this post

 

Seriously though, I will admit fault in my original reply. I took the wrong tone myself.  I should have said "thank you for taking the time to pose these questions and suggestions" and then I should have directed you to the threads that discussed this already. 

 

 

 

Closing Thoughts:

1) Any time you post anything be prepared to people to disagree.  Choose your words carefully to minimize negative backlash.  Be humble, state that this is only your opinion, don't make assumptions, don't speak in absolutes.

2) We all could have done better today, exhibited more patience, used more tact. 

3) Look TJeezey, I don't want to run you off and discourage you from buying the game.  Please take what you can out of our feedback and toss the rest aside. We got off on the wrong foot clearly and we also do not see eye to eye.  This is perfectly fine.  We can play on opposite teams :)

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Please delete this. Not only is it against my multiple requests, I'm trying to get a good debate going. Please stop trolling.

You've been accused of "trolling" quite a bit already to point that out.

You seem to not care for what the other people's opinions were/are in the way you keep beating the same old questions. People have already went above and beyond to explain something to you and there is nothing left to *argue* about which is what much of it has turned into.

You basically just called the community an "aloha snackbar" community after the first couple good posts you disagreed with? Doesn't exactly fuel a good debate, you can consider anyone a troll if you want, but look at what you say as well.

((A lot)) of people have been trying to get the point across that there is a time to lay off, opinions will be opinions.. and you've made your point plenty.

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1.) I like the idea of your ally's nametag popping up at the bottom/top corner of your screen (within a certain range) when you're looking at them. That'd be cool if it also showed the speaker symbol next to it or flashed green/yellow when they are talking.It doesn't get rid of the tags, but at least takes it off the center of the screen.

 

2.) That'd be fine if they didn't put arrows where your friendlies were. Static enemy markers placed by SL and CO would be fine to show up on the map.

 

3.) I personally don't care if there is a scoreboard or not. But I do agree that it shouldn't update right after you get a kill. But I don't think they plan on making it update like that anyways lol. But as far as alternatives, they could make your scores show up after the round is over, or after a certain period of time, like PR..

 

4.) Removing the ability to talk while dead sounds cool, but the thing is people will get on teamspeak, making it unfair for the players who are using in-game voice chat.

 

5.) Can you crawl and reload? I think it'd be fine if they made it so you can't. I've never tried it, but I suppose it would be difficult.

 

A lot of these ideas are just personal preferences, the only one I see to be technically limiting is the gametag idea. So most of these will come down to whether or not the devs WANT to do it, rather than if they CAN do it.

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1.) I like the idea of your ally's nametag popping up at the bottom/top corner of your screen (within a certain range) when you're looking at them. That'd be cool if it also showed the speaker symbol next to it or flashed green/yellow when they are talking.It doesn't get rid of the tags, but at least takes it off the center of the screen.

 

2.) That'd be fine if they didn't put arrows where your friendlies were. Static enemy markers placed by SL and CO would be fine to show up on the map.

 

3.) I personally don't care if there is a scoreboard or not. But I do agree that it shouldn't update right after you get a kill. But I don't think they plan on making it update like that anyways lol. But as far as alternatives, they could make your scores show up after the round is over, or after a certain period of time, like PR..

 

4.) Removing the ability to talk while dead sounds cool, but the thing is people will get on teamspeak, making it unfair for the players who are using in-game voice chat.

 

5.) Can you crawl and reload? I think it'd be fine if they made it so you can't. I've never tried it, but I suppose it would be difficult.

 

A lot of these ideas are just personal preferences, the only one I see to be technically limiting is the gametag idea. So most of these will come down to whether or not the devs WANT to do it, rather than if they CAN do it.

Thanks man and welcome to the proper discussion side!  Yeah the scoreboard thing gets people heated for some reason in my view.  Why do people want to know your score in game?  I wholeheartedly believe it makes it really arcadey.  Still in PR as i mentioned before you can still tell after you spawn if you got that sniper off in the distance. All side points go to a squad wide pool that shows up at the end perhaps?  An after action report screen showing total team kills, shots fired, deaths and maybe some cool other ones?

 

Yeah being able to reload while crawling just looks too weird to me!  What does he have super strong legs? haha

 

Edit:  I forgot to say that ill log your +1's and suggestions. 

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Let me start out by saying that you had good questions and suggestions.  I'm not slamming them but again, it's bean beaten to death. I don't even really care that it's been asked many times, which is why in my first response, I merely mentioned that and pointed you to one of the existing threads.  I also made a suggestion of being able to disable certain UI elements so that everyone is happy.  That means that TJeezey can disable everything and be as immersed as he wants while others can have name tags and other elements if they wish.  Would that work for you?

 

Assumptions:

1) That you asked a unique question or provided a unique suggestion. Again, nothing wrong with that, it happens. What's wrong is #2

2) Assuming that the forum members owe you an explanation and a reply to these question

3) That we don't have equal or greater "real world information" than you do

4) That members of the forum and Squad players "want to be spoon fed". Also, you basically insulted anyone who disagrees with you about this.

5) You assumed that dead people can't talk, but as others have mentioned, people will just end up using Teamspeak and that will hurt the game overall.

6) You made the assumption that the game currently shows "display arrows on HUD of where enemy positions are". It does not show this. That's when Frosty2200 said it sounded like you were describing BF4.

7) While with good intention, you assumed that you'd be able to "bring all of those little discussions sprinkled everywhere into one spot". Again, a good idea, but if you've been on these forums long enough, you'd see that it doesn't work.  Only a moderator, dev, or member of significant influence (none of which apply to me or you) is going to be successful doing this.

8) And the nail in the coffin is that you made the assumption that most people were going to agree with you.  This is backed up by the fact that you argued with every person who disagreed. 

 

 

Absolutes:

1) OP: That everyone MUST refrain from saying this has been discussed before. 

2) OP: Saying "Going to a scoreboard IS INSANELY immersion breaking". Again, not a proven fact. This is just your opinion, but you state it as an absolute.

3) OP: That responding to your ideas with "this is too milsim" is not acceptable. Why isn't it acceptable? Is this a milsim? Is this an arcade shooter? No and no, so what is it? It's something in between. I argue that it is acceptable for people to disagree and say that some of your suggestions are too milsim. 

 

Thanks for painting me in a corner.  Again, speaking in absolutes.  So either I agree with you or I have to look like a fool who doesn't like fun or a challenge.  There are compromises to when the tags would be shown (i.e. within a certain distance, within line of sight, etc)

 

Everyone on these forums is free to express the opinion constructively, including yourself.  But here you are basically saying "You can only reply if you agree with me".

 

How ironic.  You're demanding everyone read your post and answer your questions yet when Unfrail made a post earlier, you completely brushed it off and clearly did not read it. Rest assured, when Unfrail makes a post, it's of high quality and has been thought out. He was making a point that it is difficult to identify players, not in real life which is what you assumed, but on a limited resolution HD screen. Again, please read everyone's posts if you want them to read yours.

 

Here's what I messed up on:

1) replying to this thread

2) replying again to this thread

...

n) Making this post

 

Seriously though, I will admit fault in my original reply. I took the wrong tone myself.  I should have said "thank you for taking the time to pose these questions and suggestions" and then I should have directed you to the threads that discussed this already. 

 

 

 

Closing Thoughts:

1) Any time you post anything be prepared to people to disagree.  Choose your words carefully to minimize negative backlash.  Be humble, state that this is only your opinion, don't make assumptions, don't speak in absolutes.

2) We all could have done better today, exhibited more patience, used more tact. 

3) Look TJeezey, I don't want to run you off and discourage you from buying the game.  Please take what you can out of our feedback and toss the rest aside. We got off on the wrong foot clearly and we also do not see eye to eye.  This is perfectly fine.  We can play on opposite teams :)

There is a lot of your post that I dont agree with or incorrect and to save time and to be nice, ill hold it.  You do realize that telling me I cant have absolutes is....applying absolutes?  I did it because you have to set boundaries or else the discussion has no form.  I asked 3 questions to be solved and for people to stop saying to leave it alone.  We have roughly 5 brand new ideas that we could further discuss at a later time.  Im not sure why you have to feel the need to waste so much energy typing that out and provided next to nothing in terms of good content to perhaps revamp an old system. Or feel the need to talk to me like im some little kid. You see this is why im so upset!! I appreciate the olive branch and its all good. Again per my request, refrain from any posts that do not positively generate NEW ideas.  A toggle is not what im talking about, that does not solve the name over head. I'm looking for an idea/system that still incorporates the feeling of having to actually look at someone to IFF. Just like my squad on the hill scenario I posted a while back.  That is what I'm looking to get at. I'm not shooting it down it's just that you didn't answer the question.  And about Unfrial's post.  Sir I apprecaite what you wrote and maybe didnt make it obvious.  In a nutshell, the resolution of the screen in my mind, shouldn't have that much of an impact to IFF to have floating names.  If someone is too far for you to see, you would instinctively would want to move up yes? If a floating name is there you wouldn't.  That's one example of how it impacts your decision and risk taking process.

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You see, this is what SandSukka meant with you making assumptions. Just stop posting, go clean your gun or whatever.

Where do you live ill show you when its ready! lol ;)

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WARNING

WALL OF TEXT DETECTED

 

Alright, since we've all seemed to simmer down a might, I'd like to seriously state my opinions on your list of issues.

 

I agree that being able to focus on a friendly so far away that you can't tell if they're friend or foe and suddenly their name pops up is no good. One of the many things that helped me fall in love with Project Reality (and ArmA) was the need to communicate possible contacts to your squad leader and work together to confirm or deny the threat. Communication is key and will become even more so as the vehicles make their way in.

 

Now don't get upset, but I truly don't believe it would be a good idea to completely remove the tags, especially in close proximity. I know this horse has really been severely mutilated, but you need to be able to see the names of soldiers in your immediate vicinity! It really has nothing to do with IFF, TJeezey. You could completely remove the ability for me to see nametags on anyone after 5~ meters, put a delay on the tag appearing, make them smaller and limit it to line of site. I'd still be happy as a cucumber just so long as I have the ability to look at the person next to me and see their name so I can quickly and concisely communicate with them specifically. It's as simple as being able to know that they know you were talking to them.

 

As for the map, this isn't a novel idea, but I've seen mention in a few other threads of making the map look like what would be seen on a Blue Force Tracking device. If you've ever watched one of Dslyecxi's videos and seen the map in the missions they play, you'll know what I mean. If not, it's the positional tracking of the squads as opposed to individual soldiers and the manual placement of markers. Now I don't know how the majority of people feel about being able to see your fellow squad members on a map like that but I personally think that it would be an acceptable compromise in the direction of ensuring that new recruits aren't completely lost on their first play, but are still somewhat encouraged to participate with their squad.

 

As for scoreboards, I personally like having a scoreboard so long as it doesn't list the kills but focuses on overall points. Still, I suppose making it so the scores are only viewable at the end of a match would work just as well. It makes me proud when I get top of the server in PR, not from "rekt killer sweet KDR brahs", but from saving my team and squadmates lives as a medic.

 

Welp, there are my two shekels. Anything else I don't feel too strongly on, one way or another. It may not be the reinvention of the UI wheel that it seemed you wanted TJeezey, but nevertheless those are my thoughts. Now please lets all keep in mind the fact that these are opinions.

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I think the current system works really well. Except for long distance.

 

I do think that the 'focus' mechanic should be extended to spotting at long distance. So that if you spot a person far away, and putting your ' invisible aimpoint' (for want of a better word) on that little group of pixels doesn't yield a name, requires you to press the focus key to give the name (if friendly). If enemy, you still get nothing. 

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I think the current system works really well. Except for long distance.

 

I do think that the 'focus' mechanic should be extended to spotting at long distance. So that if you spot a person far away, and putting your 'invisible aimpoint' (for want of a better word to describe the centre of your screen) on that little group of pixels doesn't yield a name, it requires you to press the focus key to give the name (if friendly). If enemy, you still get nothing. 

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Before blood really does fly Im closing this thread.  Sometimes I dont mind that certain topics that have been done before resurface because sometimes things have changed and revisiting is not a bad idea.  Having said that, I did not see anything really new and what I did see was a lot of anger, bashing, trolling, and a few other equally unappetizing things going down.

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