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M4 Vs AK74 recoil Build 2003

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There will not be a full animation reset after firing a shot, that is out of the question, this won't be a twitch shooter.

 

I am going to experiment with adding a tiny bit of reset compensation though.

 

There is nothing wrong with the recoil amount, the only reason it feels excessive is because there is no reset and people arent willing to play the part of fighting the recoil - so ill add the lazy mans solution of letting the in game character handle some of it for the player.

 

If it is possible to add a little bit of compensation I will, but if not, it will be a while before you see it.

 

I hate that nagging gets to me and changes up my priorities and work schedule, but if it will give me peace then so be it.

I must learn to resist the forum's, videos and PMs constant complains about the weapons so I can get some real work done.

 

EDIT:

 

I'll let you guys have a little insight at what I am experimenting with.

 

 

This is obviously not final, and I am EXTREMELY hesitant to even make it reset as much as I show in this video, cause if this is done across the board on all weapons firefights time will drastically decrease and ruin the tempo and feel of the entire game.

 

Please realize that changing even the smallest things with weapons changes the entire game, keep that in mind when you give your feedback.

This is a game above all else, not a simulator or meant to mirror real life.

If real life is fun or adds something to the game - then we choose that, otherwise we choose gameplay. Gameplay > realism.

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Every game should strive for realism and excellence in my opinion. The weapon mechanics do feel off to me, Especially when aiming down sights

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Haven't got my new PC to play yet so only watching vids. But from watching it already seems too easy to even move and gun full auto. If made even more controllable...

Pls keep you priorities, players will learn and adapt.

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I honestly think the recoil is good and I wouldnt complain if the Devs added more recoil either.

 

I care more about the sight picture being improved for more accurate single fire.

 

I also think the community divide with this subject will close a lot once weapon resting "in the future of course" is implemented. I feel the player should genuinely feel the need to use their cover to shoot off. Grip control plays a very large part in precision shooting and that can't be portrayed digitally, only riding the recoil with the mouse.

 

If everyone spent a day learning how to control it there is a lot of satisfaction in the skill when it comes together.

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He, I was certain that you could assign different recoil values to different firing modes and I like the effort made by you, Z. Personally, I'm happy with solution #2 as long as there is just a bit of kick to the weapon(depending on caliber and weight) to not make it too easy to engage on long range, but low enough to make people want to use it unless they are in CQC. Z, do us the favour and put it in the next build pretty please? <3

 

@Predator

 

All of us realize that 5.56x45mm and similar have very little kick to it, but this is a videogame, not reality. In a videogame, you need to work with what you can emulate from reality, and while admittedly you can probably simulate tilting(Verkanten der Waffe) and misaligned rear sights and front posts, I think it would be gloriously annoying to either a) have to wait for your rifle to be in a perfectly aligned, steady position or B) press a button that does it for you. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Games will always bent the rules of reality to a degree for the sake of 1) simplicity, 2) feasability or 3) fun. Allow me to demonstrate what I mean by each and how that affects the game:

 

1) You don't have to drag barbed wire from a box in order to put it down. Instead of having an overly complex system that involves you carrying stuff, dropping it and placing it between two posts, it is limited to a simple buildable object mechanic that only requires left clicking. Maybe in ArmA they like to do this kind of stuff but a) this isn't ArmA and B) that's fucking boring as shit.

2) Going back to the topic at hand, the only way your gun moves in this game is via mouse. With sway and recoil, there are already 2 things you have to counteract with your mouse in order to be precise. There is no need to add tilting, misaligned sights or any other type of realistic influence in order to create a realistic game experience. Let stuff be feasible, have two things that are exaggerated a bit to cover for everything that would be involved in a certain aspect realistically, and forsake all the other mechanics that you don't need and only waste time and effort.

3) You die here, you respawn. You die in reality, you don't. Which sucks. And it sucks in a game as well.

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@z-trooper: For single fire a reset as shown would be great. You can not compensate recoil with only one shot. In full auto mode, the current recoil would make the PR vets happy and could teach people to use single fire above all, if not necessary. That way a single shot is a threat to someone not using cover and concealment (I see many people, even the well organized teams, silhouetting against the horizon on hill tops instead of using the backside of the ridge or foilage to cover their movement). Firing in the general direction, however, should not result in one guy wiping out an entire squad in one burst.

 

@Frontliner: What people find immersive others might find boring. A logistics system where you have to haul "physical" objects to use them can be fun for some and tiresome for others. And by the way Squad is announced, one should think it is about immersive, realistic gameplay. I am not the carebear to haul stuff from A to B. So I could not care less about base building, be it ArmA or Squad.

 

 

 

Squad is an online, team-based military experience where high levels of teamwork and communication are crucial to success. [...] in intense modern day combined-arms combat scenarios. In this realistic environment, the flow of the game is dictated by the players, with organic and emergent gameplay reigning supreme

 

I am well aware that you don't want to add everything that is realistic into the game. But this is an common argument to ridicule the strive for authenticity and realism.

I did mods in the past for SWAT 4 and ArmA 2 to make it even more realistic in terms of gun play, because it just did not feel right for games that are supposed to be  successors of once simulation like games.

 

Recoil and muzzle climb were always a high priority for me. You have no control over your player characters body besides basic movement and lean. With recoil as it is now, you suggest that recoil is always the same in every stance and shooting position (except for supported firing). In single fire, which is my only concern for the most part, you can not use your natural point of aim, a good fighting stance or a better grip. It is all controlled with crude input from a mouse. I have to lower my mouse sensitivity to about 2.5 in Squad and for firing the resolution to 800 dpi to be able to properly aim. I am not an Unreal crack shot that can run and gun in a ridiculous speed.

To compensate, these rather unique skills for competitive shooters, I prefer games where you have to focus on tactical maneuvers to beat the enemy, not by forcing the player to compensate something they can not control in the first place.

 

Shooting is not just point and click. It is a complicated and highly fascinating process. As you said, the game does not force you to align sights, control your breathing, pull the trigger or get into a proper stance. With the high recoil, even after the first shot, you actually make the game a point and click, but with more pointing involved, since there is nothing else to shooting than that.

 

I don't want to change the way the game is planned, I just want to give feedback from a old-school tactical gamer and real life shooter about the first impressions about the game. I love the immersive sounds and great teamplay. I am not a stat padder, but do not rush into combat, because I would only have one life if this was realistic. So I rather go slow and low and get shot anyways end end up dying more than killing. So much for my K/D, despite the tactical approach.

 

Since this is a military game, shooting is the key feature. You could scrap the fancy buildings, the landscape, the nice sun sets and sounds. When the key feature does not feel right, you will get ripped out of the immersive game as soon as you fire a shot.

 

I appreciate the communication with the developers on a eye-to-eye level. If they would just do their thing, the player base not coming from PR might feel left out. I know several people that are interested in Squad, they too come from OFP/ArmA(1-3) with ACE/ACRE and expect their new "best" game to play like ArmA ACE/ACRE without the issues and netcode. This might be Squad.

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I am well aware that you don't want to add everything that is realistic into the game. But this is an common argument to ridicule the strive for authenticity and realism.

I did mods in the past for SWAT 4 and ArmA 2 to make it even more realistic in terms of gun play, because it just did not feel right for games that are supposed to be  successors of once simulation like games.

 

Excuse me? Dude, first off, you don't know me enough to make a statement of that caliber, and second of all, the only times I would argue against a realistic portrayal when it's neither feasible, nor doable, nor fun.

 

You are concerned with recoil being too high, but you weren't concerned with tilting or misaligned sights not making an appareance, even as a trained soldier it will happen(which you should know), so I can conclude that you've made concessions to the game already - which is ironic given how much you ramble about how you strive for ultra-realism.

 

Again, I would argue that high Recoil+Sway is a good enough substitute for all the other handling aspects of rifles that we don't require every single aspect to be featured.

 

 

 

 

Recoil and muzzle climb were always a high priority for me. You have no control over your player characters body besides basic movement and lean. 1) With recoil as it is now, you suggest that recoil is always the same in every stance and shooting position (except for supported firing). In single fire, which is my only concern for the most part, you can not use your natural point of aim, a good fighting stance or a better grip. 2) It is all controlled with crude input from a mouse. I have to lower my mouse sensitivity to about 2.5 in Squad and for firing the resolution to 800 dpi to be able to properly aim. I am not an Unreal crack shot that can run and gun in a ridiculous speed.

To compensate, these rather unique skills for competitive shooters,3) I prefer games where you have to focus on tactical maneuvers to beat the enemy, not by forcing the player to compensate something they can not control in the first place.

 

1) Source please? I suggest you stop putting words in my mouth.

2) Eventually you're going to get the hang of it. In Day of Defeat (Source), which uses about the same recoiling mechanism as Squad I had a hard time keeping the weapon steady at first, even the low recoil ones like the M1 Carbine. Now I can work with the way harder Stg44 and BAR even while standing(which has the full recoil), it just depends on your effort.

3) This will stay true even with high recoil

 

 

 

 

Shooting is not just point and click. It is a complicated and highly fascinating process. As you said, the game does not force you to align sights, control your breathing, pull the trigger or get into a proper stance. With the high recoil, even after the first shot, you actually make the game a point and click, but with more pointing involved, since there is nothing else to shooting than that.

 

I'm aware. That doesn't mean it has to be transferred into the game.

Oh, and even if high recoil makes the game more about pointing your gun correctly, it's still better than not having any of that. If you leave out recoil compensation then there will be nothing to shooting. Now you're just contradicting yourself lol.

 

 

 

 

I don't want to change the way the game is planned, I just want to give feedback from a old-school tactical gamer and real life shooter about the first impressions about the game. I love the immersive sounds and great teamplay. I am not a stat padder, but do not rush into combat, because I would only have one life if this was realistic. So I rather go slow and low and get shot anyways end end up dying more than killing. So much for my K/D, despite the tactical approach.

 

You're not the only one here with "old school" experience or real life experience.

 

 

I appreciate the communication with the developers on a eye-to-eye level. If they would just do their thing, the player base not coming from PR might feel left out. I know several people that are interested in Squad, they too come from OFP/ArmA(1-3) with ACE/ACRE and expect their new "best" game to play like ArmA ACE/ACRE without the issues and netcode. This might be Squad.

 

But this isn't ArmA, it's Squad. Can't deal with high recoil and everything else that's different from ArmA? Game's not your cup of tea because of differently perceived realism?

 

You can always like.... not play the game. There's the door.

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I'll let you guys have a little insight at what I am experimenting with.

 

 

This is obviously not final, and I am EXTREMELY hesitant to even make it reset as much as I show in this video, cause if this is done across the board on all weapons firefights time will drastically decrease and ruin the tempo and feel of the entire game.

This looks so much better and more natural than the current system because it makes single fire and burst fire finally viable. I don't think anybody actually wants a full reset like you sowed at the end, perhaps a bit of a reset after you stop shooting would be nice (think of yourself pushing forward to counter weapon's kick, when you stop shooting you still push a little and reset the weapon a bit).

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You seem to take this the wrong way Frontliner. My intention was not to attack you or put words into your mouth you did not say.

 

I don't know you. And vice versa. I misread your post regarding adding more real life chores just to make it more realistic. I put more into your statement than you actually wrote. My apologies.

 

How do you know I am not concerned with other aspects of shooting?

 

As I said the in-game character should be the one who knows how to handle a weapon and the player should control his actions. The level of detail of those actions depend on the feasability and fun-factor checked against the increase in realism, like you said.

 

Adding something to make it difficult to shoot, like increased recoil, seems contrary to the realistic approach. And again, I am not talking about full auto here, but shooting in general in Squad. Waiting to have perfect aim would not be new to PR. The time it takes to align the sights and steady your aim could be automatic and still increase realism without the mini-game to do it manually. The first shot could have a time-related reset. The longer the player waited before firing the first shot, the more the reset would be. Firing from the hip or directly after bringing up the sights could simulate an unstable stance/sight alignment.

 

Any consecutive shot would throw the aim off. I have no issue with that or learning how to compensate, as long as there is more to it than moving your mouse or even programming the mouse to do it for you.

 

I am not contradicting myself with my statement. In the current state, sure, it seems that way. But this is an alpha that is far from feature complete and by what I could read about the whole mechanics are still work in progress.

 

This is not ArmA and that's a good thing. My point was, that with some compromise it could be the next game for those coming from the OFP/ArmA realism background.

 

If I came along elitist I also apologize.

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Realistic recoil with realistic ballistic is the best bet as even with low recoil, you'll still have a hard time landing your shot on targets

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half of you want it easier, the other half harder.... make up your mind community lol

Personally, I find the recoil to be perfectly fine. I compensate it myself by after a shot, pushing up (I play inverted) to get back to a leveled state. When I'm in full auto I do the usual, 3-4 round bursts for ARs, and 5-9 round bursts for the LMG (this is all dependent on distance of course) all the while pushing up to make sure my shots stay on target. The way I look at the recoil, when it comes to single fire and lining your shots up after each shot, is I imagine the shoulder hit. Whether or not a particular weapon has more or less recoil, your shoulder is going to jerk. The AK your shoulder will jerk more, so more compensation, the M4 less, so less compensation but the fact is, is that the hit is still there and even irl you'd have to readjust the seating on your shoulder before pulling off consecutive shots.

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I do think the mg's need more recoil when firing from the hip, many times when i came across the enemy i just hipshoot and can easily kill 3/4 guys when i enter a compound.

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We are adding stance based recoil so we can differentiate weapons more.

 

MGs are a perfect example. Recoil management should be "hard" standing, while it should be relatively easy in prone if your weapon has a bipod.

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There will not be a full animation reset after firing a shot, that is out of the question, this won't be a twitch shooter.

 

I am going to experiment with adding a tiny bit of reset compensation though.

 

There is nothing wrong with the recoil amount, the only reason it feels excessive is because there is no reset and people arent willing to play the part of fighting the recoil - so ill add the lazy mans solution of letting the in game character handle some of it for the player.

 

If it is possible to add a little bit of compensation I will, but if not, it will be a while before you see it.

 

I hate that nagging gets to me and changes up my priorities and work schedule, but if it will give me peace then so be it.

I must learn to resist the forum's, videos and PMs constant complains about the weapons so I can get some real work done.

 

EDIT:

 

I'll let you guys have a little insight at what I am experimenting with.

 

 

This is obviously not final, and I am EXTREMELY hesitant to even make it reset as much as I show in this video, cause if this is done across the board on all weapons firefights time will drastically decrease and ruin the tempo and feel of the entire game.

 

Please realize that changing even the smallest things with weapons changes the entire game, keep that in mind when you give your feedback.

This is a game above all else, not a simulator or meant to mirror real life.

If real life is fun or adds something to the game - then we choose that, otherwise we choose gameplay. Gameplay > realism.

 

 

 

 

looks bang on the money :) :) :) 

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I don't see the recoil reset working out for the betterment of the game. Too accurate. Sure you'll be able to shoot more accurately but so will the other players. 5:00 engagements will turn into 1:00 engagements. I'm here to play Squad, not Insurgency.

 

This would also potentially make the Marksman kit useless. Why would you want to shoot a couple of times very accurately when you can shoot 30 times pretty accurately?

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First off I know fuck all about firing modern military weapons, so shoot this down if it makes no sense.

 

What about overcompensating for the recoil? As in pulling the weapon lower than the original point of aim after a single shot. This might feel like trash, I don't know, but it could fix the problem of losing the target without making every soldier an accuracy robot.

 

I personally like the current system where I've got to manually readjust for recoil, which is where this suggestion is coming from.

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I agree Darman, and it is a fear of mine.

 

The constant complaining and "ZOMG NOT REALISTIC" stuff is wearing me down. People need to understand this concept Game play > Realism.

 

That being said.

 

I have adjusted some recoil settings, but I have not gone with version 2 as seen in the video.

 

Like you said, I don't want firefights to be first see first kill, it should be an encounter and exchange, even if you are ambushed.

 

Expect further tweaks to the tweaks I have put in to the next build in the future to correct any issues that may come up.

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I agree Darman, and it is a fear of mine.

The constant complaining and "ZOMG NOT REALISTIC" stuff is wearing me down. People need to understand this concept Game play > Realism.

That being said.

I have adjusted some recoil settings, but I have not gone with version 2 as seen in the video.

Like you said, I don't want firefights to be first see first kill, it should be an encounter and exchange, even if you are ambushed.

Expect further tweaks to the tweaks I have put in to the next build in the future to correct any issues that may come up.

I think realistic recoil is not the issue but ads very accurately in less than 2 is maybe the issue especially with iron sight, I've never shot a weapon but the most difficult thing to do is to correctly align the front sight with the back sight.

I think DUST has done it perfectly in my opinion :

http://youtu.be/3WXQCqvuPX8 @1:09 and 2:13

https://youtu.be/0UtRqx0zGBw

@ 0:15

How I see it in squad :

In this game, you aim with LMG and while holding LMG and moving your mouse you can move around the weapon and you shoot with scrolling down the MMB ( simulate the pressure applied on the the trigger ). This is completely a game changer, as I don't think many FPS has done it before.

When pressing on RMB you switch between ADS and shoulder aiming/ hip fire. When holding LMG while being in the ads mode, you can adjust your sight, but the hard part is to correctly aligned the sight/ reticule ( for optics) because I guess that irl, it doesn't take you less than 1s to be correctly aligned except for optics like red dot/eotech as the eye position doesn't really matter, you will still see the reticule aiming at the same target somehow... The benefit of this method is that when BUIS will be added, no need for another key blind xD

If OWI wants to increase the learning curve of the fighting mechanics and make it harder to land accurate shot at 200+m while having realistic recoil, this can be a solution to test.

Or the current/future solution increase recoil, that will do the job but will make CQB even harder. Currently I prefere to engage at > 50m rather than 30-m...

Anyway I think that I'm the only one thinking that way of the entire squad community but I needed to express myself on the matter :)

EDIT:

This is the most recent build of dust:

http://youtu.be/t--ZEpcLQJA

Look at the beginning, I think that this feature will resolve the recoil/ too accurate shot at long range. You have to correctly aligned laterally and vertically the 2 sights for iron sights and you have to see only 1 perfect circle with optics, as you can see also in this video when leaving ads mode and going back ads mode, the sights are not perfectly aligned you have to re adjust slightly the sights, blend it to the stamina level ( full stamina: slight ajustement, very low on stamina : more sway and the sights will be more misaligned so you'll take more time to correctly aligned them.

The good thing with this is that in CQB you don't have to be correctly aligned with the sights, as you are close enough to be sure to hit your target, but you want to shoot accurately at 200+m , you have to take more time to aligned correctly the sights/ optics to land accurate shots.

You can see that in the video even with the extremely low vertical recoil and at 50m my shot were not landing on where I was aiming ( i.e. My sights were not correctly aligned, if I was trying to engage at 300m, I wouldn't hit anything with that extremely low vertical recoil

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You manage to first say that you have never shot a weapon, and then tell me what the most difficult thing about shooting a gun is in the same sentence :P

 

 

 I've never shot a weapon but the most difficult thing to do is to correctly align the front sight with the back sight.

 

Luckily I have shot lots of guns ;)

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