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 One need not look far to see many of us who are disappointed in where our favorite game has gone. Whether it be rallies, run speed, tankopters, or suppression, there has been a progression toward an alternate style of play that does not align with the current or original aim of the game. I often see us blaming new players for the deviation in game-play. That attitude only berates our fresh players, and is an error of attribution. It is not the new player’s fault that they roam about lone-wolf, dispersing throughout objectives shooting enemies, but it is the game itself for encouraging and rewarding that play-style with kills and relevant impact on the battlefield.

To be clear, there are some things that need to be more hardcore, and there are some things that need to be easy and simplified. The key to making the game the best it can be is knowing what to complicate, and what to simplify. No easy task. There are some games that do a great job of this, but referencing and comparing them only seems to make members vulnerable to prejudice, splitting the community into opposing fields of thought. Will try to keep discussion in the context of Squad here.

 

 Also, this thread could be interpreted as being negative, as we’re only talking about the bad things concerning one of the best games ever made. To be sure, Squad has very many amazing, perfectly implemented features, such as the best VOIP I’ve ever experienced in a game and much more. Only constructive criticism here.

 

 

PURPOSE - To provide an organized, updated list, and description of various changes to Squad game-play from the community that may be used to influence development of mods, but wishfully, the game. No overhauls or new content. Only discussion regarding game-play adjustments. 

 

 

DEFINITIONS - For clarity.

 

ADS - Aim Down Sights mode aka right-click.

 

Muzzle Sway - The movement of sight picture while ADS is engaged.


Suppression - The disorienting effects felt when receiving fire.

 

 

ISSUES - A list of mechanics that are holding Squad back. 

 

 1. Rally Spawning in the game favors a “throw your body at the objective” play-style. Squads may approach an objective, lay a rally that essentially acts as a FOB, and then proceed to assault. And then again. And again. You also get spawn-killed in this game.

 

- A rally that lasts only a short time, which would be used to hmm “rally” a damaged Squad back together, and that is instantly disabled automatically by local enemy presence. I see this as cutting some frustration out of the game while attacking or defending (Wehmann).

 

 

2. FOB Spawning in the game is frustrating on attack. You must find and undig that radio, or all your squad’s efforts are pointless and the enemy team will spawn in greater force and seek you out. It is too difficult to disable a spawn and it is silly to surround a compound only to face waves of the same players respawning directly in front of you. 

 

- Increase range at which enemy presence disables spawn.


 

3. Suppression plays no role. It may darken the screen a tad, but it does nothing to dissuade return fire or impede the ease of doing so. There is no point in suppressing an enemy when you can easily pop him in the head. The purpose of suppression is to instill that “wtf I should keep my head down” effect that you would get IRL, but don’t otherwise get in game because, well, it’s a game. Current suppression does not do anything more than indicate that someone is doing a poor job of killing you.

 

- There are many ways to implement meaningful suppression. Muzzle sway. Blur. Some gamers hate these things; some love them. One thing for sure: you’re not going to get meaningful suppression without them.


 

4. Small-arms are very easy to use. It is great that we do not have random bullet deviation. Game-play that the player has no control over is generally bad for games. What we do have is a great muzzle sway system that is capable of emulating the difficulty that is hitting a bullseye with your rifle without sacrificing skill or realism. So why is muzzle sway practically absent in Squad? If you hold shift, you get 0 muzzle sway in this game. This in combination with speedy stamina regeneration greatly buffs the lone-wolf. The lone-wolves, who are hard to detect and dispersed throughout the map, are too often able to locate organized squads and pop them all in the head before they know the direction of the shooter. I have done this time and time again in Squad, and the game encourages it. It is a good way to get many kills.

 

- Increase the difficulty in aiming and shooting, whether by muzzle sway or other means. This and actual suppression prevents your average FPS player from effortlessly annihilating multiple unaware opponents because they were unpredictably roaming about the map solo. For the love of god. It is so easy.

 

 

5. Vehicles are annoying to control. It feels like gliding on ice. Maybe if they were reasonable in terms of game-play rather than realism(?), they wouldn’t have to be buffed so hard in health versus infantry equipment. Not very opinionated on this one. Will add what you guys think. 

 

- Simplify the lag-input/whatever it is to make vehicles less annoying to control? Followed by more reasonable damage? 

- Personally I feel that the driver for certain vehicles should get a “commander” view option in addition to his current view so it is not so terribly boring being the driver. Driving sucks! Not a fan of having to bring that 3rd person to help spot those lone HAT boys running around trying to kill you. Just another infantry man off the battlefield. I know some people feel strongly about this, so can remove this from the list upon further discussion. 



 

 

 Ending Note - Of course, the best possible variation of game-play may be a combination of several different solutions, or may lack a solution entirely. Help me come up with solutions or issues, and I will add them to this list. I am an avid modder of games and am always interested in hearing people’s ideas on how to fix things. The mods Athena and/or Hardened by Battle could someday be the saving grace of this game, but it would be best if the base game was made good as is.

 

 A common response to these types of complaints is that the devs know exactly what they’re doing and it is their intention to guide the game toward a ca$ual player-base in hopes of selling more copies, and so it is useless to bring up these issues. Firstly, the Steam Store page for Squad specifically describes the original goal of the game, so no new purchasers are under the illusion that they are buying another battlefield game. The devs clearly aren’t marketing for that casual crowd. At least not intentionally. Secondly, if it is true that they are, this incomprehensive list, if not for the devs, is for modders like me to return to and read ideas concerning how things can be adjusted. Thanks for reading and discussing, fam.

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4 hours ago, Timbo said:

 

+1

 

Good post. Good points. I agree 100% with the mechanics you mention, and how they affect the game.

 

I agree with the fact that attacking the new players for "not playing propperly" is a mistake, since they ar eplaying the ebst they can with the conditions the game provides.

 

I disagree with the what you say about the intention of the devs. And you can't justify it by their advertizing on Steam. Simply because no game advertizes itself as "arcade". Battlefield, or COD don´t advertize themselves as arcade. They all point out smething "realistic" about it, be it graphics, immersion, equipment, etc. Squad just follows the same ad rules, just claims to be "PR´s successor"

On the other hand, for most players, if you tell them they are buying a mil sim game, and they buy CoD, they will asume that CoD is a mil sim. Most players haven´t played all the different games in the spectrum from "total arcade" to "hardcore mil sim". So if you tell them that Squad is a mil sim, they will buy it, they will play it, and they will claim they are playing a "mil sim". 

 

The previous point is really minor, but it adds to the fact of what you call a "common response".

 

I DO believe that if the devs are not applying all the changes you mention, in fact, they are going the opposite way, they are doing it not out of ignorance or incompetence, but out of will to keep selling copies having players that buy the game and see a learning curve that is hard enough to make them feel this is different from COD, but easy enough not to return the copy on steam after 2 hours.

This is absolutely intentional.

 

Finally, I support your idea to at least voice these things to keep alive a part of community that wants to see something different, and eventually provide support for modders (ATHENA or HBB) to develop what vanilla will never provide.

 

Thank you for your post.

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Posted (edited)

Here is an easy way to make suppression "work":

  • When bleeding, player can neither steady his aim nor deploy his bipod;
  • Re-enact the restriction that only medic can revive;
  • Greatly reduce the revivable period to 40 seconds, so that if you got shot while out of cover, the medic might not be quick enough to revive you.

 

Adopting the above three practices items would ensure that taking cover would be the priority more often.

Edited by Noobgamer

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Posted (edited)
Quote

. Rally Spawning in the game favors a “throw your body at the objective” play-style. Squads may approach an objective, lay a rally that essentially acts as a FOB, and then proceed to assault. And then again. And again. You also get spawn-killed in this game.

 

- A rally that lasts only a short time, which would be used to hmm “rally” a damaged Squad back together, and that is instantly disabled automatically by local enemy presence. I see this as cutting some frustration out of the game while attacking or defending (Wehmann).

 

2. FOB Spawning in the game is frustrating on attack. You must find and undig that radio, or all your squad’s efforts are pointless and the enemy team will spawn in greater force and seek you out. It is too difficult to disable a spawn and it is silly to surround a compound only to face waves of the same players respawning directly in front of you. 

 

- Increase range at which enemy presence disables spawn.

If you do this then you're going to need to make FOBs a lot more concealable because right now they too easy to spot. Also I would say you will need to increase the player count to disable a FOB...probably not a static number, maybe like a ratio of enemy to friendly players within the FOB radius. Or maybe even better than disabling, make the spawn time of the FOB directly proportional to the ratio of enemy to friendly players. Maybe something like:

 

spawn_time = a * (# of enemy/# of friendly) * player_base_spawn_time, where a is constant or maybe it could be a function of time something where it increases the longer enemy players are within the FOB radius. You have fun playing with equations...

 

Rallies are an easy fix IMO, we just need to go back to the original way they worked. Limited number of spawns. That will stop SLs from rushing into the front and encourage medical game-play. 

Edited by budder8818

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Timbo, if you are collecting all the comments from the exhausted playerbase you may want to include these points:

1) remove the CALL MEDIC option, it is giving people more stupid ways to tell enemies someone is coming for them and discourage medical aid.

2) Heli pilots look invulnerable at firearms shots (as per my experience, I may be wrong).

3) Increase the spawn waiting time each time someone gives up. Zero the spawn time for those who just joined the server.

4) There was a nice post a few days ago on rallies from a guy with the canadian flag. You may want to include it.

5) Prevent Crewman kits until a consistent number of infantry kits have been taken in the faction (I'd say two full squads)

 

I'm sure that there will be much more

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10 minutes ago, Xeinar said:

Timbo, if you are collecting all the comments from the exhausted playerbase you may want to include these points:

1) remove the CALL MEDIC option, it is giving people more stupid ways to tell enemies someone is coming for them and discourage medical aid.

Or... make is useful like in PR, where the player who is incapacitaded dissapears form the map, and calling out for a medic makes him appear on the map again for a few seconds.

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Posted (edited)

So some ideas for a more slower Hardcore gameplay... or mod.

 

1. Rally Spawning

a.)Only Spawnable if the SL+1 is within 10m of the Rallypoint. Only placable (SL+2) if there is no enemy within 120m, overrun at 50m.

 

// Rally point is just a "fall back to regroup point". If you got squadwiped, you have to start at main/fob again. SL is realy important if he goes down you //should better revive him otherwise your rally is useless. SL is a high value target und should not be pointman. Planing ahead is supportet hence SL+2 //and no enemys within 120m when you want to place a rally vs. SL+1and no enemy within 50m to actually spawn on it.

 

2. FOB Spawning

a.)Overrun radius /1 in 5m /2 in 30m/ 4 in 50m/ 8 in 125m/, overrun for 30s.

b.)Takedown only with C4 no shovel

c.)HAB is 10 Points not the Radio

d.)Register at the Radio to use HAB as your Squads spawnpoint.

 

// with a.) it is easier to overrun a HAB but with b.) harder to remove. Compined with 8.a) Engeneer should not so much just run around lonewolfing but //have an actual task only they can performe. For c.) right now there is no point in not building a HAB even if you just want some HMG/TOW/Mortar to cover your advance.

And d.) would change gameplay most. Basicly the SL has at least been there in Person before his Squad can use this Spawnpoint. Just driving around digging HABs everywhere (to teleport your whole team around) would be pointles. No "Quick there is a new HAB at the new Attack (halfe across the map)... everybody die (or worse: type in respawn)". There is more communication and teamwork to get a ride rather then to just spawn at the new Objective.

 

3. Suppression

a.) bullets within 10m adds sway and darkens the edges (like now). within 5m adds PR style screenblur (and more sway). within 1m gets you unscoped (and everything befor)

b.) No Suppression if the source is within CQC range (10m?), No Suppression if the source is friendly and within 50m

 

//PR suppression is the only suppression that is effective, you will only stop shooting at someone if you cant see him. But in CQC it is quit ridiculous running around eachother not seeing anything. thats why b.) and friendlies should not irritate you if they are firing near you but getting shot at from a distance and immediately knowing its friendly because you dont get a effect is gamey.

 

4. Small-arms

a.) Base Sway is based on your stance and can only be countered with a bipod. Breath sway (up and down) depends on your stamina can only countered with "focus"

b.) Aim Punch if you get hit and also everytime you get the "bleed" effect.

 

// There should be no easy one button deletes all sway solution. At least you need both: bipod and stamina (to hold your breath) to have minimal sway.

// And b.) is some sort of pain. If you bleed you are not as combat-effective. Maybe with some soundcues of pain.

 

5. Vehicles

Much to much to do here. But Damage and Armore are not the only values to consider for balance. You can give less FOV, or more minimum zoom to make it not so usefull without someone else spotting for them (Commander or Inf), you can make them use WASD(or gamepad once we have annalog input) only unless those where the gunner can be shot out. Or just add more damagable compartments.

in a Tank i would like the Commander to get the damagestats and smokelauncher, so he can better deside when to engage and when to retreat.

 

6. Medic/Reviving

a.)If you get revived you get the black&white screen and cant use or raise your weapon until Healed by a Medic.

b.)To heal place down your "Unit One Pack" (like the ammobag of the Riffleman), Your Medicbag can only heal within 5m of your "Unit One Pack" on the ground. If ready pick it up again and move on. The Medics Unit One Pack contains also 10 Bandages for everyone to grab.

c.) Give the Medic bandages the appearence of a combat application tourniquet (CAT), give the Medicbag the appearence of a IV Fluid (Saline), and give the medic nitrile gloves everytime he uses his medic equpment (pure esthetical)

 

// a.) is an alternative to the 60s dead-dead. They are not combat-effective for some time (no zombie-soldiers) and have to get to a medic. I know BnW screen was not very popular in PR because for some it never worked (giving them a huge advantage), but i think it was engine related and could fully work in Unreal. I prefere this over dead-dead because imho with dead-dead if one hears that there is some reviving going on you encourage them suicide-charge in because they get at least on solid kill that cant be revived.

// while b.) would make healing much more of a static action and slow gameplay down, but would only work with 1. and 2. to make spawning also slower. No more healing while running.

//and c.) is just better than the magic "lay on hands" and showes why the Medic is quicker at stopping bleed.

 

7. Movement

a.) If you jump down and would start to bleed you are ragdolled.

b.) Sprint and pause to recover your stamina should be at least as fast as permanent sprinting.

 

// b.) would still be easier to just run over longer distances, but at least you are not forced to also just hold Sprint to keep up with those, but could also execute some fire and movement without having to worry about beeing late.

 

8. Kits

a.) Special Kits like HAT/Engeneer/GPMG and Sniper(CAN) the Kits are not takable again for 5 Minutes.

b.) Special Kits like HAT and GPMG also take away a slot of there lighter variant.

 

// If you loose a vehicle you are not only punished by tickets but also by respawntime but if you take out a special kit he can be back in aktion in no time.

//Special Kits are also quite powerfull and should be punished for loosing it.

// It would just be ocupied by a "gost" for 5 minuts. You can take another kit and spawn, and after 5 minutes you (or any other) can request it again from //a crate, or you can just wait 5 minuts to spawn with your special kit again.

//(OK but why the GPMG? its not that special?... agreed but we could make it special if it would use a single long belt instead. Now you can at least suppress for some time)

 

Edited by Titan84

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On 2020-04-02 at 4:39 AM, Timbo said:

 One need not look far to see many of us who are disappointed in where our favorite game has gone. Whether it be rallies, run speed, tankopters, or suppression, there has been a progression toward an alternate style of play that does not align with the current or original aim of the game. I often see us blaming new players for the deviation in game-play. That attitude only berates our fresh players, and is an error of attribution. It is not the new player’s fault that they roam about lone-wolf, dispersing throughout objectives shooting enemies, but it is the game itself for encouraging and rewarding that play-style with kills and relevant impact on the battlefield.

To be clear, there are some things that need to be more hardcore, and there are some things that need to be easy and simplified. The key to making the game the best it can be is knowing what to complicate, and what to simplify. No easy task. There are some games that do a great job of this, but referencing and comparing them only seems to make members vulnerable to prejudice, splitting the community into opposing fields of thought. Will try to keep discussion in the context of Squad here.

 

 Also, this thread could be interpreted as being negative, as we’re only talking about the bad things concerning one of the best games ever made. To be sure, Squad has very many amazing, perfectly implemented features, such as the best VOIP I’ve ever experienced in a game and much more. Only constructive criticism here.

 

 

PURPOSE - To provide an organized, updated list, and description of various changes to Squad game-play from the community that may be used to influence development of mods, but wishfully, the game. No overhauls or new content. Only discussion regarding game-play adjustments. 

 

 

DEFINITIONS - For clarity.

 

ADS - Aim Down Sights mode aka right-click.

 

Muzzle Sway - The movement of sight picture while ADS is engaged.


Suppression - The disorienting effects felt when receiving fire.

 

 

ISSUES - A list of mechanics that are holding Squad back. 

 

 1. Rally Spawning in the game favors a “throw your body at the objective” play-style. Squads may approach an objective, lay a rally that essentially acts as a FOB, and then proceed to assault. And then again. And again. You also get spawn-killed in this game.

 

- A rally that lasts only a short time, which would be used to hmm “rally” a damaged Squad back together, and that is instantly disabled automatically by local enemy presence. I see this as cutting some frustration out of the game while attacking or defending (Wehmann).

 

 

2. FOB Spawning in the game is frustrating on attack. You must find and undig that radio, or all your squad’s efforts are pointless and the enemy team will spawn in greater force and seek you out. It is too difficult to disable a spawn and it is silly to surround a compound only to face waves of the same players respawning directly in front of you. 

 

- Increase range at which enemy presence disables spawn.


 

3. Suppression plays no role. It may darken the screen a tad, but it does nothing to dissuade return fire or impede the ease of doing so. There is no point in suppressing an enemy when you can easily pop him in the head. The purpose of suppression is to instill that “wtf I should keep my head down” effect that you would get IRL, but don’t otherwise get in game because, well, it’s a game. Current suppression does not do anything more than indicate that someone is doing a poor job of killing you.

 

- There are many ways to implement meaningful suppression. Muzzle sway. Blur. Some gamers hate these things; some love them. One thing for sure: you’re not going to get meaningful suppression without them.


 

4. Small-arms are very easy to use. It is great that we do not have random bullet deviation. Game-play that the player has no control over is generally bad for games. What we do have is a great muzzle sway system that is capable of emulating the difficulty that is hitting a bullseye with your rifle without sacrificing skill or realism. So why is muzzle sway practically absent in Squad? If you hold shift, you get 0 muzzle sway in this game. This in combination with speedy stamina regeneration greatly buffs the lone-wolf. The lone-wolves, who are hard to detect and dispersed throughout the map, are too often able to locate organized squads and pop them all in the head before they know the direction of the shooter. I have done this time and time again in Squad, and the game encourages it. It is a good way to get many kills.

 

- Increase the difficulty in aiming and shooting, whether by muzzle sway or other means. This and actual suppression prevents your average FPS player from effortlessly annihilating multiple unaware opponents because they were unpredictably roaming about the map solo. For the love of god. It is so easy.

 

 

5. Vehicles are annoying to control. It feels like gliding on ice. Maybe if they were reasonable in terms of game-play rather than realism(?), they wouldn’t have to be buffed so hard in health versus infantry equipment. Not very opinionated on this one. Will add what you guys think. 

 

- Simplify the lag-input/whatever it is to make vehicles less annoying to control? Followed by more reasonable damage? 

- Personally I feel that the driver for certain vehicles should get a “commander” view option in addition to his current view so it is not so terribly boring being the driver. Driving sucks! Not a fan of having to bring that 3rd person to help spot those lone HAT boys running around trying to kill you. Just another infantry man off the battlefield. I know some people feel strongly about this, so can remove this from the list upon further discussion. 



 

 

 Ending Note - Of course, the best possible variation of game-play may be a combination of several different solutions, or may lack a solution entirely. Help me come up with solutions or issues, and I will add them to this list. I am an avid modder of games and am always interested in hearing people’s ideas on how to fix things. The mods Athena and/or Hardened by Battle could someday be the saving grace of this game, but it would be best if the base game was made good as is.

 

 A common response to these types of complaints is that the devs know exactly what they’re doing and it is their intention to guide the game toward a ca$ual player-base in hopes of selling more copies, and so it is useless to bring up these issues. Firstly, the Steam Store page for Squad specifically describes the original goal of the game, so no new purchasers are under the illusion that they are buying another battlefield game. The devs clearly aren’t marketing for that casual crowd. At least not intentionally. Secondly, if it is true that they are, this incomprehensive list, if not for the devs, is for modders like me to return to and read ideas concerning how things can be adjusted. Thanks for reading and discussing, fam.

Suppression works well.

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This thread needs to be pinned. I wasn't so certain the game was going in this direction before I went back to PR and played a few rounds then came back to Squad. 

Squad has become a 'who can win the meat grinder' type of game instead of a tactical, teamwork game. The OP does well to emphasize the importance of rally and FOB mechanics that make this behavior possible, but also as others have pointed out, reviving needs not be so accessible. Yes, you may say, anyone can revive in PR too. Well, yes, but actually no. There still needs to be a medic kit laying around in order to be able to do that and you need to run to that medic kit, take it and run back to the wounded.  With the flexibility a standalone game offers, I expected Squad to handle this much better where maybe you can go to the medic and pickup 1 "revive item" (morphine, dressing whatever) and then revive 1 person. This way, you still need to have a medic in the Squad. The same thing might work for taking ammo from dead bodies. 

 

On a note for vehicles, I don't know how a game developed by former PR developers in a modern game engine gets armor combat so wrong. It literally feels like vanilla Battlefield 2 where you have 2 tanks sitting in front of each other trading shots. I think it is too symmetric and vehicles are really the same just with different models and slight differences in specifications. 

 

I really hope the devs take a step back here and turn towards their original goal for the game and I agree, it is not the new players fault. Players play the most effective way to play the game and avoid the way that punishes them and currently, teamwork and communication are really not at the top of the list.

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2 hours ago, fidanym said:

On a note for vehicles, I don't know how a game developed by former PR developers in a modern game engine gets armor combat so wrong. It literally feels like vanilla Battlefield 2 where you have 2 tanks sitting in front of each other trading shots. I think it is too symmetric and vehicles are really the same just with different models and slight differences in specifications. 

 

I really hope the devs take a step back here and turn towards their original goal for the game and I agree, it is not the new players fault. Players play the most effective way to play the game and avoid the way that punishes them and currently, teamwork and communication are really not at the top of the list.

+1

 

Thank you for making your voice be Heard. We need more presence of the people who are dissappointed with VANILLA. 

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Ducking in to letcha know we're reading along and making sure the thread gets passed into the right channels. =) Fuzzhead's a little bogged down at the moment, but he'll definitely take a look.

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That's great, I really hope there is some movement towards a less meat-grinder type of gameplay and more tactical-style gameplay where the Squad that has the better tactical positioning and situation handling will take out the lesser-squad without having them magically respawn in a minute using their nearby rally or overrun FOB.

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Great points and good discussion here.

Definitely want to ensure that tactical style gameplay is promoted and encouraged over meat grinter type gameplay.
 

There will be some updates that will specifically focus once again on the spawn system (Rallys and FOBS). And there will be some updates focusing again on Suppression system and infantry small arms.

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12 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Ducking in to letcha know we're reading along and making sure the thread gets passed into the right channels. =) Fuzzhead's a little bogged down at the moment, but he'll definitely take a look.

Squad is the spiritual successor to Project Reality, it should be just Project Reality with widespread realism mechanics and better graphics.. I agree with everything realism and teamwork... If the devs want to make suppression useful in line of sight firefights they need to make it blur. Unless a soldier is wearing safety glasses the dust, low velocity, high velocity spall and fragmentation of the bullet and what hit it. This causes bluring, flinching(if sudden/not used to/expecting it), teary eyes, instant adrenaline dump making fine motor skills shaky even with training....

 

 

For the overall teamwork gameplay, realize what your player demographic is coming from as the game starts to expand. I understand this from a deep psychological stand point, i can make causals do teamwork with simple orders that rhyme "1 per cover in sight of each other spread to explosive blast radius, move cover 2 cover, fire at the height of a man as deep as you can, eye level with your cover and target zone". Its creating a HEAVY teamwork game but teaches no skills expecting players from casual games who have NEVER had accountability on a team in their life. Nobody can rely on them for a lot of things already much less in a video game where they dont care because they dont know the skills or even where to start learning. 1 per cover and cover 2 cover in sight of each other is the base of infantry tactics, dispersion of the force where its needed. Patience is a big thing to surviving, waiting out enemy attention of snipers/tanks/machine guns, not panicking, just staying alive in the objective.

 

 

These casual players make the same mistake over and over, sitting still for scopes, they only do accurate fire on what they can see, sticking out of the ground exposed head to toes, not anticipating all projectile possibilities or enemy perceptions of the battlefield, they rarely understand suppression or its effects even though they get shot at every round and dive for cover. They dont understand suppression in the woods through all camouflage/cover to prevent seeing the enemy so they dont see you, some common sense things you can forget under stress like "Fire and move away from your last outgoing tracer/gunshot location". It does not present anyway to teach them. I made a playlist and tips for Squad and Project Reality where people can learn from others training or experience. Skills you see in Metal Gear Solid or Call Of Duty campaign missions, playing dead like Reznov, camouflage, cover 2 cover. . Its not about teaching each individual thing, its about teaching the mindset that comes up with these tactics, based off kill but survive.

 

 

Squad and Project Reality are what COD/Battlefield should have been, big maps with teamwork. Its everyones dream, but the problem is reality... Corporate franchises like COD/Battlefield/CS:GO/Rainbow 6 siege all have the same things in common. The rounds are short, everyone rushes, spawn, sprint, use no cover, find enemy, jump, prone, shoot. This neurological pointless repetition leads to rage and is somehow "addicting" which really no other games like this were well known and available especially outside console. This has programmed peoples minds neurologically, even mine to bad gaming habits for teamwork. One being dying alot because my skill and no teamwork for help against enemy. These games advertises teamwork even though EVERYONE knows nobody uses it or teamwork happens by accident with 2 or more people going toward an objective dying 1 by 1 causing just bad tactics.

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14 hours ago, Gatzby said:

Ducking in to letcha know we're reading along and making sure the thread gets passed into the right channels. =) Fuzzhead's a little bogged down at the moment, but he'll definitely take a look.

 

4 hours ago, fuzzhead said:

Great points and good discussion here.

Definitely want to ensure that tactical style gameplay is promoted and encouraged over meat grinter type gameplay.
 

There will be some updates that will specifically focus once again on the spawn system (Rallys and FOBS). And there will be some updates focusing again on Suppression system and infantry small arms.

Thanks!

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On 3.4.2020 at 2:37 PM, Nightingale87 said:

Or... make is useful like in PR, where the player who is incapacitaded dissapears form the map, and calling out for a medic makes him appear on the map again for a few seconds.

Where is the sense in the call for a medic option if you as a Medic always see all downed players on the map anyway and on top of that in the 3d hud as well. I just don't get it.

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On 4/7/2020 at 4:35 AM, fuzzhead said:

Great points and good discussion here.

Definitely want to ensure that tactical style gameplay is promoted and encouraged over meat grinter type gameplay.
 

There will be some updates that will specifically focus once again on the spawn system (Rallys and FOBS). And there will be some updates focusing again on Suppression system and infantry small arms.

 

On 4/6/2020 at 7:20 PM, Gatzby said:

Ducking in to letcha know we're reading along and making sure the thread gets passed into the right channels. =) Fuzzhead's a little bogged down at the moment, but he'll definitely take a look.

Been too long since we have Devs actually acknowledge that Squad is in the wrong place. Thank Christ you guys are going to fix this, all I want is for what was advertised to me a year ago.

 

I never wanted a CoD or BF on "mil sim" steroids.

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Here's a point I don't see brought up too often:

 

- Vaulting is OP in its current form

Let's forget about realism for a second here. I don't care how strong real soldiers are or how they operate on the field in RL. The way Squad has implemented vaulting has huge gameplay ramifications that are felt as soon as you go to another game.

 

I remember how PUBG used to play before they added vaulting. Going over fences and small objects used to be a pain and something you had to think about. And forget about climbing those huge rocks in the desert map. After they added vaulting all sorts of other opportunities opened up for players - faster navigation trough urban enviroments, climbing roofs, finding sneaky capming spots. All of those things added an additional layer that benefited this battle royale game where the whole point is that you WILL have to move eventually because of the shrinking safe zone.

 

But in a game like Squad, where sometimes you don't get to leave a flag for 40 minutes, a system like that can create some problems. My issue is that vaulting allows players to approach any flag from almost all directions. Getting stuck in one of those little Afghan villages is a nightmare. Enemies can climb over most walls alone and with help the buildings themselves as well.

 

The micro level design starts to matter much less and the game becomes about if your squad can watch the whole compound you are in 360 degrees. It discentives defending and preparation. In many other games not being able to go anywhere you want creates chokepoints.

 

One of the great things about Squad is that pretty much every building in the game is accessible, as opposed to PR which had these whole appartment blocks that were inaccessible. You had to climb on top of them to use them against the enemy. I only have to compare Al-Basrah's Squad and PR versions to show you what I'm talking about. In Squad there are dozens and dozens of angles enemies can be at - multiple elevations and directions. It makes fighting a lot harder.

 

In PR, insurgents will sometimes climb roofs with the help of a breacher's hook/rope. But generally, even if PR didn't have thermal sights, insurgents job would be a lot harder.

 

And if you add vaulting to the mix things get nuts. Everybody can climb almost anywhere, they don't need help to do it either. There are no thermals to discourage you from popping a few shots and falling back.

 

In PR, while it looks goofy, roping up and all that makes a lot more sense for the gameplay. First of all - being on a rope and getting killed makes you insta dead dead (because of how BF2 is). It's risky, throwing the hook makes noise, alerting enemies within 30m at least. Some building also have ladders. Where are they in Squad? Why have they not been implemented yet? Vertical traversal in Squad is either extremely short (only a wall) or it's stairs (or it's the player built ladders which are also a bit OP).

 

(Also where's swimming? Will this game forever be a land and air game? No boats, no swimming? That's laughable if that's the case.)

 

My solutions would be to nerf climing height; maybe even its speed. Because it's way too late to change all the maps. I like buddy climbing, it's a fun mechanic like in CS. But if people want to climb over walls, it needs to be more of a concerned effort, like breaching a door in R6 or something. Give a climbing gadget to a new class called breacher who also carries the C4s, like PR.

 

Sometimes less is more.

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Posted (edited)

1- positive: makes game slightly harder, negative: makes steamrolls more likely. 2- attacking is supposed to be frustrating, defending is supposed to be easier, increase in range would just make the defenders either easier to attack because fob is off cap, or make it so attackers become the defenders and defenders become the attackers, which is just stupid. 3- yeh suppression needs a buff. 4- solo play as infantry looking for kills isn't rly a thing, its more likely people seeing engi's and marksmen on their own (which is just how they would be in a world that allows respawning... but as to making the shooting harder, whats the point, its already above what a arcade game has, and below what a hardcore game has, which is fine, because squad is a game that fits in between. 5- haven't noticed this at all and i spend all of my time in armed vehicles as the driver, heavy vehicles slide, because gravity is a thing, for driver, you can just press F3, not that hard, makes its so you cant quickly go to cover, also just be aware of your surroundings and move regularly.

Edited by dob_z

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Posted (edited)

More stuff i would like to try out...

 

4. Small-arms

a.) higher ADS Time for Scopes (like GPMGs)

b.) Bullets not coming from the barrel but also flying in the direktion the barrel is pointing.

c.) No reset of the "weapon lowered" after sprinting. And time to when "lower" decresed (15s)

 

//Everybody wants to take scoped weappons because they are superior in every aspect. On longer ranges the scope are of course in a advantage but even on shorter ranges they are at no disadvantage. Target aquisition Scoped is as easy as with a Reddot. And even more so if you just "hip"fire. Ironsights/Reddot should be more usefull in closer ranges since they are at a disadvantage over longer.

//to c.) Right now most weapons go to "lowered" after 30s after ADS / Firing or Sprinting. (never seen? yes there are rarely 30s you dont do on of these)

It lookes strange (and BF like) if a soldier is pointing his rifle at his mates and superior. And should only apear if he suspects contact (e.g shortly after he scoped in) So you could still effective hipfire but only if you are prepared. If you are supprised (in CQC) a noscoped Rifle would be more handy.

//But this would only work if b.) because right now they are coming from your barrel but shooting into the middle of your screen. If you are supprised in a sprint or otherwise you shouldnt just snap to "hipfire" and land those first shots on target in no time, if you shoot with your gun down you should pepper the ground while raising your gun.

 

(tbh I dont know how it works exactly but if you fire your weapon while lowered it will snap to your "hip position" but even bevor it gets there the first shot can be seen (if its a tracer) flying from my left lower corner into the middle of my screen while my gun is pointing to my lower left, so its going somewhat 90° off of where my gun is pointing maybe its just a case of not matching animations)

 

5. Vehicles

a.) No "one man Vehicles" for Crewman Vehicles

 

// If it is a crewman-restricted vehicle you should not be able to lonewolf it. Just make a notification like you get if you try to enter a vehicle without crewman-kit.

Driver enters first, then Commander and Gunner last. You can enter Gunner seat if all requirements (e.g Crewman-kit + driver and Commander are allready in) are fullfiled. (obviously only if there is a commander seat that requires a crewman-kit.)

 

8.Kits

a.) Specialised Squads (Light Inf/Tanks/Mech.Inf/etc.)

 

//I know, i know, this would take away some freedom but, so does the kit restriction or the loadout system anyways and its working finde. (No one can run a 9 Marksman squad and no one can take an MG+AT and 8 nades into battle, thats all restricted and for the good.)

If you join a squad you know what to expect. (because everybody wants to be cool and original, named Squades are not always clear).

 

9. Map/3D-UI

a.) Any of your Sqads FTL should be marked on the map like a SL is marked, by a big fully FT-colored circle with the FT-Letter

b.) Your Fireteamleader should also be visible like the SL is, in 3D view all over the map, when you look around

c.) Range indicator next to the SL/FTL 3D view to see how far i am from my SL/FTL but no range indicator to attackmarker (unless SL)

d.) No Nametags beside your own Squads further out more than 20m

 

// Nametags are important to recognise your squadmates and where you should be (with our FLT/SL). But seeing some blue chevron through walls 200m over is cheap. This would only work with some slower gameplay of course, because right now there is no time for proper target identification.

 

10. Other Gameplay

a.) In RAAS if you have more boots on the ground you should cap faster (neutral flags)

b.) Crewman and Pilots dont cap.

 

//to a.): I think the "one guy caps only" rule was implementet because of the meta of rushing the enemys early caps to hold off there advance early on. Since in RAAS you cant see the enemys first flags, you can`t rush them like in AAS. Right now you only need one guy to cap a flag, and a second guy is a total waste, the rest of the team just rushes to some random places on the map, building fobs and hoping that they predicted the right spot. Then abandon there FOB and beeing out of place if the true flags are revealed. If everybody would count toward capping your team would have a strategical choice. Cap in full force one flag after another or dispatch some squads to secure keypoints, thus risking that the enemy can cap faster and get the intel on the new flag earlyer.

//b.) While having all those fine and mighty vehicle, grunds still should matter. Just driving up in your Tanks should not secure you the point. Vehicle should be there to support the infantry not doing there job themselfes.

Edited by Titan84

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15 hours ago, Titan84 said:

...If you are supprised in a sprint or otherwise you shouldnt just snap to "hipfire" and land those first shots on target in no time, if you shoot with your gun down you should pepper the ground while raising your gun.

I noticed that recently, while sprinting across the road I noticed an opponent that was about 20-30m away and was ready to take on me but I was able to hit him with HiP fire from my LMG with the first volley. It just felt weird and I felt a little bit sorry for him because he had done everything right and still he was punished.

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Many months later, having gone back to PR and talking to some people, and mainly after having read this...

 

 

And this...

And having seen this...

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=squad+mod+hardened+by+battle

 

I am more convinced than ever, that the efforts to improve VANILLA SQUAD, by using all the experience gathered (mainly from PR) trying to get a deeper gameplay, and more satisfying experience, are badly placed.

 

Let´s judge the devs by their deeds, and Reading between the lines of what they write.

 

VANILLA SQUAD IS HERE TO STAY AND TO REMAIN THE WAY IT IS (if not more arcady)

 

Be grateful that SQUAD exists as a viable economic source to base more realistic designs.

 

 

Focus your efforts in supporting modders.

 

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3 hours ago, [RIP] DogBite said:

Kinda sad that we need to hope for a PR like mod to get the (old) Squad experience that was promised.

I think SQUAD is a great game for 90% of FPS players out there. Just not for me. It has all the potential to be.

 

I actually want Squad to thrive, because it Will be a fantastic foundation for fantastic mods.

 

So if the devs make money, Squad keeps growing, more content, better engine, more people to populate fantastic mods like the upcoming HBB and ATHENA.

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