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Geebus

It seems to be getting worse... How do we fix it?

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The incentive should be quite simple:

Server rule says Squad Leaders must use mic, play objectives and coordinate with other squads

Server rule says Squad Leader can kick anyone who does not play with their squad

Server rule says everyone must be in a squad

 

So then, if there are admins taking care of these rules, you either play by them or find another game

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Biggest issue facing Squad right now is its Permanent Rally, needs to be reverted to PR style rally to force squad mates and pub players to play and value their life/position on the map more than what the forgiving permanent rallies currently implemented. The currently damning Rally mechanic in Squad combined with Broken Fob overrun mechanic (see 30 meters) and an everybody is a medic/can revive approach has crippled the underlying framework that made public PR matches with strangers successful and a "SQUAD" like affair.

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You are wrong. Everyone in PR can revive by picking up medic kit. Everyone can revive hurt nothing in squad

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, paragonid said:

You are wrong. Everyone in PR can revive by picking up medic kit. Everyone can revive hurt nothing in squad

I agree. 

 

Everyone being able to revive was a step forward. It took a lot of pressure off the medics chests. IT was very hard to get people to play the medic, because the proper way of playing was KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN. Because the medic was the only one able to revive. 

 

Removing that responsability off the medic´s shoulder and expanding it across the Squad made the role much more common. Being the only one being able to heal and having a lot of bandages made the role special enough.

 

BUT THEN....

 

Somebody had the fantastic idea to remove the dead-dead after being killed 60 seconds after revive. This mechanic was EXCELLENT. It made peole very aware and careful for their lives. It made the "push" after "achieving fire superiority" a thing, which was something experienced SLS and players were able to time.

Removing that made everything just be a plain and uninteresting pew-pew….

Edited by Nightingale87

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5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Removing that responsability off the medic´s shoulder and expanding it across the Squad made the role much more common

It wasn't so hard. Medic's place was in rearguard, because reviving/healing skill was more usefull than killing. Noone like to miss action = medic kit not popular.

Now medics are best for frontline or solo action, because can take more hits. 95% of medics have more kills than healing points and no revives.

On 21.03.2020 at 7:35 PM, Einen said:

I'm gonna be "that guys" : Kick them and then leave the squad, they will end up with no kits and no squad, no way to found a new kit because no ammo at HAB and probably leave the server. Next time they will close their mouth and listen.

Are we playing same game? They will kill you first, then find you again and keep teamkilling, until reaching automatic kick threshold. Admins now same arcade players as one you kicked, they don't care for rules and teamplay.

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Yeah I agree about the revive thing too. Right now, it's just too easy to make a stupid play and get killed then revived and then repeat. Lowering the amount of field dressings to 1 for infantry might be a part of the solution, so you have to think whether you'll need that patch. Additionally, the dead-dead must come back. If you get knocked out during the 2 minutes after being revived, you should go dead-dead. Right now it does feel like wiping out an enemy squad is not that big of a deal because they're back up in no time.

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Shoving medics into the rear has never been a practical solution. Winning the firefight is the #1 way to save lives. This is an ancient debate though. Maybe it changes with body dragging.

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2 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

Shoving medics into the rear has never been a practical solution. Winning the firefight is the #1 way to save lives. This is an ancient debate though. Maybe it changes with body dragging.

I don´t really think body dragging Will change anything.

 

With the current gameplay, why would I risk myself trying to drag someone to a safe place to be revived????

 

It´s much better that I pew-pew as much as I can! After all, the downed guy can just give up (1ticket who cares?) and respawn quicly (short respawn timers for people with adhd) just 5 mts away from the action (permanent rallies with absurd overrun radius).

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6 hours ago, Zerzeron said:

It wasn't so hard. Medic's place was in rearguard, because reviving/healing skill was more usefull than killing. Noone like to miss action = medic kit not popular.

Now medics are best for frontline or solo action, because can take more hits. 95% of medics have more kills than healing points and no revives.

Are we playing same game? They will kill you first, then find you again and keep teamkilling, until reaching automatic kick threshold. Admins now same arcade players as one you kicked, they don't care for rules and teamplay.

I recall those times, and yes, playing medic meant never shoot. It was pretty rare when medics could engage... frustrating, at times. The current dynamic, which I didn't like when announced, works much better.

On 21/3/2020 at 3:35 PM, Einen said:

I'm gonna be "that guys" : Kick them and then leave the squad, they will end up with no kits and no squad, no way to found a new kit because no ammo at HAB and probably leave the server. Next time they will close their mouth and listen.

I used to. Now it is a lost battle: most of the SLs are silent in the command chat, grunt do not inform of enemies spotted or being hit, things like that. It is pretty sad and I'm considering abandoning the game for a few years, hoping for the casuals to leave to another game.

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11 hours ago, Xeinar said:

 It is pretty sad and I'm considering abandoning the game for a few years, hoping for the casuals to leave to another game.

It is pretty sad. I haven´t played VANILLA for 1 year. Only coming back with each new update to try out and see if the mechanics had changed. I had some hope with buddy rally removed, but no. 

Nevertheless, my hopes are quite different. I don´t blame it on the casuals, I would not like them to leave. I blame it on the mechanics that allow those casuals to REMAIN CASUALS for ever. At the end of the day, it is a pretty basic game. All you have to master with the current version is "where I get shot from, and how to kill more". That is it, there is not much more Depth for grunts. For Sls, maybe a bit more. So I will come back to Vanilla when mechanics change.

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22 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

Shoving medics into the rear has never been a practical solution. Winning the firefight is the #1 way to save lives. This is an ancient debate though. Maybe it changes with body dragging.

№1 way to say tickets: 1) flank; 2) overrun FOB; 3) hold on until main force arrive. Medic in the rear was best practice in first phase. If you start fight while flanking, it's better to let enemy think that your force was destroyed and meet no resistance further, than attract more and more of them.

So many times i was instructed (and prefered myself later) to hide behind, and revived SL later, when enemies went away. New rally was placed behind enemy lines, and sudden strike cause their defences to crumble. One of best moments in Squad: when your superior tactics/teamplay worked out (not aiming skill or K/D ratio in the end).

You may think Sun Tzu was a fool, and blind "rush the middle" is true way, but no.

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3 hours ago, Zerzeron said:

№1 way to say tickets: 1) flank; 2) overrun FOB; 3) hold on until main force arrive. Medic in the rear was best practice in first phase. If you start fight while flanking, it's better to let enemy think that your force was destroyed and meet no resistance further, than attract more and more of them.

So many times i was instructed (and prefered myself later) to hide behind, and revived SL later, when enemies went away. New rally was placed behind enemy lines, and sudden strike cause their defences to crumble. One of best moments in Squad: when your superior tactics/teamplay worked out (not aiming skill or K/D ratio in the end).

You may think Sun Tzu was a fool, and blind "rush the middle" is true way, but no.

Are you refering to Squad in its current form???

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On 25/03/2020 at 4:33 PM, Zerzeron said:

Are we playing same game? They will kill you first, then find you again and keep teamkilling, until reaching automatic kick threshold. Admins now same arcade players as one you kicked, they don't care for rules and teamplay.

Yeap, that's an issue, I don't get why they didn't implant an autoban for TKing his previous SL.

 

That and a black list of player share by servers, that's way if you get ban from one server, you get ban from all.

 

There is a lot of work to do  in term of server administration automation : kicking people that stays recruit or alone too long, soloing assets, TK, etc.

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7 hours ago, Einen said:

Yeap, that's an issue, I don't get why they didn't implant an autoban for TKing his previous SL.

 

That and a black list of player share by servers, that's way if you get ban from one server, you get ban from all.

 

There is a lot of work to do  in term of server administration automation : kicking people that stays recruit or alone too long, soloing assets, TK, etc.

A black list of players for anything other than hacking seems like it could be very prone to abuse. I wouldn't want to give that ability to just anybody that buys a server. That is probably a power best left in the hands of the developers if they even have such a power.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Geebus said:

A black list of players for anything other than hacking seems like it could be very prone to abuse. I wouldn't want to give that ability to just anybody that buys a server. That is probably a power best left in the hands of the developers if they even have such a power.

Yes, but if I remember correctly that were the case in PR and only major offence were registered (such as a lot of insults and voluntary TK), minors offences such as wasting assets and soloing, that result in kick or shorts bans weren't registered. And I don't know exactly how it was done, perhaps a server administrator can help us here.

 

And since server are handle by clans (so OWI customers) i don't think OWI can directly ban people, there is always VAC and EAC BAN but it's only for cheaters.

Edited by Einen

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On 27.03.2020 at 2:21 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Are you refering to Squad in its current form???

No. That was answer to "never" statement.

20 hours ago, Einen said:

 

That and a black list of player share by servers, that's way if you get ban from one server, you get ban from all.

There was server-shared lists in the past. Abused.

36 minutes ago, Einen said:

And since server are handle by clans (so OWI customers) i don't think OWI can directly ban people, there is always VAC and EAC BAN but it's only for cheaters.

But what they can do: show to admin, if player blacklisted at another servers (with list of offences).

Proper in game abuse report will do a lot. Place "report" next to "mute": window with text-box, grouped tree-view with check-boxes and "submit" button. (Reporting on some servers is a joke: "find us on discord", "only available to players, that registered at our forum", "only server sponsor can report, paid service")

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Zerzeron said:

But what they can do: show to admin, if player blacklisted at another servers (with list of offences).

Proper in game abuse report will do a lot. Place "report" next to "mute": window with text-box, grouped tree-view with check-boxes and "submit" button. (Reporting on some servers is a joke: "find us on discord", "only available to players, that registered at our forum", "only server sponsor can report, paid service")

Good idea, but it's often abused by angry player that spam it every time they encounter a minor inconvenience. It's need to be coupled by some "after action reports" where you can see what happened exactly, a recording would be nice but i doubt that possible in term of storage.

 

In the past I like the player's tribunal in League of Legend, I think it was a good idea to involve player in the process of judging and punishing bad behaviour.

 

However, we are only addressing here the "very bad" behaviour here : aka insult, voluntary teamkill and voluntary wasting assets. I don't think, it was the main topic here, and honestly it's happens sometime but it's not a constant nuisance in Squad compare to other games (every MOBA for example, WAAYY too much salts).

 

I don't think we can automate too much, for example auto-kick lone wolfing marskman, because it will block some aspect of the game, same example sending a engineer alone repair an abandoned logi. That's why we will always need an human administrator.

 

IMO, they are three type of action to be taken :

  • Devs actions :
    • Increase the server administration automation (auto-kick for AFK, recruit, unassigned, TK your ex-SL when getting kick, soloing heavy assets), with different preset available (training, seeding, non-seeding),
    • Create easy tools for the server administration : I have no idea how it is right now, but every-time the admin seem to have issue with it,
    • Tweak/modify games mechanics that are not encouraging people to play together and have "teamwork oriented" actions, and that it's a full subject by himself,
  • Server admin actions :
    • Respecting the existing server chart and not taking advantage of their power, it's a bit of a wishful thinking IMO but still,
    • Made clearer and standardized rules, sometimes what's allowed in a server and what's not is blurry and changing. Think about the new player that will not get the subtlety of it,
    • Have an admin present and enforce theses rules, for real and not only when a player action disadvantage them. Stop being afraid to kick and ban people,
    • Keep a certain balance in a server, there is a no-fun to get steamrolled endlessly,
    • For really hard case (potential cheat or game mechanics abuse) you should report at OWI and IT SHOULD BE a community referent at OWI for this type of case,
  • Player actions :
    • Step up and form a Squad if you are a vet,
    • Listen to you SL and take the damn kit that he ask for, it's seriously f**** exhausting to ask 20 damn time,
    • If you are SL, don't be afraid to kick people that don't listen, I also hate being the cops but if you don't do it you squad will loose all his integrity in a few minute. If the guys TK you, kill him, teabag him and report to the admin. If admin does nothing, just leave, server with this kind of attitude will get meaningless gameplay anyway.

 

To conclude, don't idealized the golden age of PR too much, we all remember the perfect match with a lot of teamwork and etc. But let's be honest, it was 1/10, 1/5 max, match. With the nostalgia, we just forget Kashan Desert without any action at all, the insurgency without any organized squad of the insurgent side, the Mutrah were the marines never managed to get the dock, etc. PR have exactly the same issues but less marked and perhaps with less "meat grinder" effect, and it's not that easy to solve.

Edited by Einen

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The worst players are the ones with lots of hours, and yet don't understand how the game is working, and how it should be played, the vehicles, etc.

You are unable to reach a person who thinks he's got the game 100% and knows everything, where as you can teach a new player how to play properly.

Edited by Atlan

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4 hours ago, Atlan said:

The worst players are the ones with lots of hours, and yet don't understand how the game is working, and how it should be played, the vehicles, etc.

You are unable to reach a person who thinks he's got the game 100% and knows everything, where as you can teach a new player how to play properly.

I tottally disagree.

 

Players with a lot of hours play the game REALLY well. The have become very good at it, applying tactics that work very quickly and efficiently.

 

The problem is that the conditions imposed by the environment encourages tactics that we wouldnt see in anything realistic and discourages tactics that would otherwise be desireable and applicable in a realistic environment.

 

They completely understand "how the game is working". The problem is that for some part of this community, "how the game is working" doesn´t match "how it should be played".

 

Don´t blame it on the players, they play their best with what is given to them,.

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13 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

I tottally disagree.

 

Players with a lot of hours play the game REALLY well. The have become very good at it, applying tactics that work very quickly and efficiently.

 

The problem is that the conditions imposed by the environment encourages tactics that we wouldnt see in anything realistic and discourages tactics that would otherwise be desireable and applicable in a realistic environment.

 

They completely understand "how the game is working". The problem is that for some part of this community, "how the game is working" doesn´t match "how it should be played".

 

Don´t blame it on the players, they play their best with what is given to them,.

I dissagree, most clans with member who rack up thousand hours still don't know any better.
Their tactics are (Decent) enough to win a public match with luck, sheer luck, but they wont listen to reason behind tactics that would demolish, or make the game easy.

There is only one way that the game should be played in this scenario:
Talil outskirts, 

There is a stalemate between ali air base, and, the lower base.
We are pinned down by gunners, and so are they, vehicles and other stopping both teams from advancing, the helicopters are doing nothing re-supplying the defensive fobs, while the logi trucks are staying in the base.

This is not the right gameplay. The right gameplay is to use a helicopter to get behind enemy lines to get a fob down, and use logi trucks to re-supply the ´defensive fobs.

Players and clans with thousand of hours don't listen, and I have been in this situation a thousand times, with scrub players and clans that can't understand simple logic.

They don't do the best they can with what they have, far from. They suck.

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1 hour ago, Atlan said:

I dissagree, most clans with member who rack up thousand hours still don't know any better.
Their tactics are (Decent) enough to win a public match with luck, sheer luck, but they wont listen to reason behind tactics that would demolish, or make the game easy.

They don't do the best they can with what they have, far from. They suck.

Start a clan,  train a team, and beat them. When you do, and beat them many times and by a big margin, then you can say they don´t play the game well. 

 

There is an obvious reason why people with "thousands of hours" don´t listen to somebody new in the game or in their community. Even if you are right, you are what is called, a random. 

 

Option 1 - you are being arrogant to think you know more tan playes who have "thousands of hours"

 

Option 2 - Their prejudice doesn´t let them see that there is a more efficient way of doing things.

 

WHATEVER OPTION YOU PICK -----  > > >   What you are posting right now, even if you were right, is absolutely off topic. This is not about how people play the game, but about the kind of gameplay you want to see. 

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Nightingale, you are right when you say that it is a matter of point of views. Yet it is crazy how Squad became unplayable garbage for players having more than 2 working neurons.

 

- Zero strategy

- Zero care for own and teammembers life

- Zero care for assets

 

Most of the European servers are harldy playable because of the same clan members who lock squads of 2-4 people, take a veichle and do not communicate enough on the SL chat - and do not expect more from "random" SLs.

 

To be honest I'm lucky as I've been trained by a disbanded Italian clan and I'm able to see the difference of gamestyle. And the way the game changed, as it was initially presented and how OWI turned it into, is not forgivable.

 

The current gameplay is pure thrash and trying to play is frustrating as hell.

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40 minutes ago, Xeinar said:

The current gameplay is pure thrash and trying to play is frustrating as hell.

Yes it is. It is just insurgency with microphones...

 

Still, Atlan is talking about people not playing the game "properly" and that is wrong. People are playing the game the best they can. Competitive players and clans play VERY effectively. He wil only prove his tactics are better if he trains a clan and beats the,. 

 

Now, the fact that the competitive part play the game really well, doesn´t mean tha this is the game I would like to see.

 

In case it isn´t clear yet, I Will explain with a silly example...

 

Competitive League of legends Payers play the game the best they can. That doesn´t mean that they are Good at any military simulation level.

 

Squad is the same. Competitive players would kick my ass any day of the week, but that doesn´nt mean that what they do in this game called SQUAD has any resemblance whatsoever to a more mtactically oriented game.

 

For example a compettive Squad player may beat me in reflexes and head shoot me every time, but he hasn´t learnt when to retreat, and fall back to sabe his life (1 ticket and position presence)...why? Well,...simply because retreating and falling back is pointless in SQUAD. It is much better to push and die having bodies on the cap than knowing when to fall back. 

 

To sum it up once more...

The set of skills required to play SQUAD at its highest level are not the same as the set of skills required to play PR at the highets lvl.

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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