Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ReasonX

Vehicle armor system is a lie?

Recommended Posts

Hello. Im has come to this forum to discuss the current vehicle combat and armor system. (Im not from this guy, who compare with IRL stats).

 

Here, im found thread, with next table https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12GB74o-tP37D2o5iVZJQ4MXTlievUXG0g3GD5vA98Eo/edit#gid=0

Its looks pretty authentic and similar to what i feel, when play on armor and what i get on test servers.

 

But here i want to ask - WTF?????

So there is no any weak spots, no any tactics and attack directions. You just shot AP and get 800 HP, there is no any reason to get around and shot HEAT in backside, you just do less damage. All tanks has similar HP and because - same durability. 

 

Isnt it? Does this thing planned to change? 

Edited by ReasonX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

0.  WTF?????

All good mate

 

1. So there is no any weak spots
Back of the most vehicles has less armor. So no, unless you define weak spot as not something with less armor

2. no any tactics 

I guess there are, I use some. 

3. attack directions
There are, they effect armor penetration, but not damage. If by direction you imply angle of impact.

4. You just shot AP and get 800 HP, there is no any reason to get around and shot HEAT in backside

Join online test server, offline has bugged values, and try to shoot the tank in the front armor, you won't do any damage
As there is no directional damage multiplier, if only reason you accept is doing more damage, then no, no any reason
If you accept increased chance of penetration, possible damage of modules, limited visibility to driver and gunner e.g. due to engine lag smoke as reasons, then there are reasons

5. All tanks has similar HP and because - same durability. 
Sounds correct, so you are right at least at something. Implying you shoot them with same weapon


One of the key moments you misunderstand about current vehicle armor system, is that all shots either pen or not pen, doing 100% or 0% (at least it's how it's declared, but in my experience, it's either bugged or has other conditions I don't know about. E.g. ammo storage definitely able to 2x the damage). Armor doesn't reduce damage, it either prevents damage or not.
Hard to know what else you don't understand, I'll try to answer more of your questions if you ask

Edited by paragonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Weak spot is spot, whereб in some case, i can shot and get extra damage (like side hull + ammunition cellar + HEAT== 1 or 2 shot) but ammo doesnt works at all, every time i shot in ammo, i just get kill with standart 4 - 5 shots. 

2. Yes of couse, but not in general, only mind games. 

3. In 90% cases you have ~100% penetration chance. "No pen" case == RNG owns you today == defeat, andthis is not good. (Maybe if tanks were not equal... but they are).

4. Of couse, i did. I dont want directional damage multiplier, but more complex, not mirrored gameplay. (like we already have with BMP2 vs IFV vs Warrior) Omg fights between with these three is very cool and much more unpredictable. 

 

>One of the key moments you misunderstand about current vehicle armor system, is that all shots either pen or not pen, doing 100% or 0%

Im know and understanding this. But FFS, all AP is equal.  All tanks equal.

So the best tactic = shot first at all cost. If you dont - run. Its being good to have different gameplay for different tanks

 

Its good to have:

1. Different AP shells for nations.

2. Invincible zones for some AP and not for other.

3  Different HEAT shells for nations. 

4. HEAT damage over AP(on pen of course), to make flankink and side covering much important.  

5. Maybe some more ammo cellar damage.

 

Edited by ReasonX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Ammo storage is a weak spot by your definition. I haven't seen official explanation confirmed by my experience on how it works though, so it's my speculation. Maybe someone else can help us here
2. If you get me cafeterias for what is considered tactics and what mind games, maybe couple examples on top, I probably can give you tactics back or tell that they indeed not exist. But so far this question is only mind games for me
3. There's no RNG in the armor system. 90% of which cases? I.e. explain your sample. If you are trying to consider unbiased (representative) sample then definitely no. To change the results, shoot tanks in different places of front armor on online testing range. Or up armored warrior / bradley with BTRs.

BTR vs Stryker front armor fights on above 400m distances
Extreme angle of impact for BTR/.50 cals on enemy vehicles. I.e. you can shoot BRDM/MRAP vs 30mm/50cal and not pen it

 

2.1 > So the best tactic = shot first at all cost.
Not at all. Only shoot if you can hit and penetrate, have enough health to take return fire or sure you won't get shot back. Waiting for fire focus or more exposed position where I can damage the module and finish the enemy are examples of other tactics I use.

p.s.: I just realized this classic statistics application of 50% of the time it works everytime, lol
In 90% cases you have ~100% penetration chance

Edited by paragonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant remember any case, where i can distinctly see target and cannot penetrate it.  If you can intentionally shot different places - you have ~100% pen (cause distance). In other (long range) you havent 100% pen and also you cant shot in special places intentionally == RNG. 

So this is a (short)first shot + smallest RNG or (long)first shot + accuracy + total RNG. 

 

>have enough health to take return fire or sure you won't get shot back. Waiting for fire focus or more exposed position where I can damage the module and finish the enemy are examples of other tactics I use.

This is "special deviations."

In general you have 100% HP, enemy have it too. You know where is the enemy, he too.

In other reality you maybe want to try shot track and flank, but now you must hit first or retreat.

 

>Only shoot if you can penetrate

You always can penetrate, if you dont, you can easy retreat cause distance.

Edited by ReasonX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm intentionally shoot different places in this video made specially for you:


Out of ~5 shots I only had 1 pen. Does this disprove your hypothesis? If not, then I don't understand your assumptions.

RNG as for Random number generation or some chance of something happening in the same situation without changing any conditions, right? If not, you shouldn't use the word in your case, it's misleading. There's no RNG as a random factor in determining penetration calculation

 

If you think you have all tanks combat figured out, I strongly advice you to join one of the tank vs tanks only competitions and test your tactics and ability to shoot first.

Other than that, I hope the information I provided helped to understand the armor pen system better, not interested in arguing your desires

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About RNG.

This is not about a random variable, built in equalation . This is about players the "lack of complete information".
You never know what real angle (due lags and human factor) , you never know what angle you need (you dont know equalation and also can calculate it in mind =) ).
Yes, when you have 9000+ hours in game, you have "some sence" but, this sence never be 100% real.

This is RNG and it is okay, when RNG cases are frequent or\and doesnt have supreme influence. 


But they are, in shot by shot firefight, if you get's ricochet - you lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. You right with example (im sucessfully repeated this lol).

But for justice, this is the most bad spots to hit, any little skilled gunner would't shot in frontal plate at this angle, when he  have big 100% pen spots (like cheecks and side)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd argue that it's not what most people familiar with math call RNG as, so if you want people to understand you faster, at least explain them what do you mean.

As a side note, nothing is real and information can be complete only in a model, I would love to see any proof that not being the case, thank you (:

Turn the tank directly front to the pen source and you'll have same results.

But again, I'm not interested in arguing feelings of "is it good enough for you or not". I'm just to make sure you understand how it works

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're looking at the wrong chart.

This one shows the armor values:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IZxi7kN4XDGPHPoPu64dq0MhtdjR6P273T84iKZy0Ys/edit#gid=0

The lack of reason for using HEAT is because APFSDS(which doesn't overpenetrate) and HEAT(which doesn't do more post-penetration damage) are not properly modeled. 

 

So not only are armor values unrealistic; the "damage absorbed" value is what makes everything do a lot less damage to "weakspots"(ammorack...etc.). (on top of the modifiers you saw in your link)

So side/rear shots can result in more component damage depending on "damage absorbed" number.
 



 

Edited by EcchiRevenge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×