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budder8818

Limiting the Range of the Communication Channels

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This is more of theoretical discussion around game play as i don't realistically think this could ever make it into the game at this point. But I still wanted to post the idea in the forums and maybe if the games ever goes through an expansion it may be something that could be discussed further.

 

I'm not aiming for realism since most of the maps are not large enough to run into this problem IRL. Rather I'm looking to add another dimension to FOB/logistical management and add more to the "strategic" level of the game that makes it so unique when compared to other military shooters.  

 

Instead of having squad radio channels and command radio channels have infinite range, limit the range a player can communicate via their position. Think of this like a positional radio where everyone in squad X is on their own frequency and can only broadcast squad radio within a X meter radius (without any need for 3D positional audio). Your squad mates within X meters will here the message. Squadmates outside the radius will here it as static.

 

FOB radios could serve as repeaters. The idea being if you are within X meters of a FOB, that FOB will repeat the squad comm message off it's own Y radius and so on and so forth to any FOBs radios within the Y radius until it reaches a valid squad member on that channel. Maybe add an antenna fob deploy-able to expand the range.

 

Goals

 

Encourage better FOB management, encourage squads to stay together since you won't be able to have people across the map and still communicate to each other, add another strategic aspect to the game as you will need to maintain communication as well as supply lines. 

 

Edited by budder8818

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What are you trying to archive by it? What results do you expect to get if it's implemented?

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Encourage better FOB management, encourage squads to stay together since you won't be able to have people across the map and still communicate to each other, add another strategic aspect to the game. 

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Not sure I can understand what so you mean by better fob management

In the world of computers, everyone can have external communication without limitation. What you will do, is now handicap less organized people

As for the game mechanics adding additional cost to any distance from main, the strategic effect will be increased cost of flanking

If you want add something like this to milsim,I can see why. It doesn't work well for any competitive setting even that small as squad

Edited by paragonid

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

What you will do, is now handicap less organized people

To be honest, this sounds like something i'd greatly appreciate. Forcing people to at least try and be more organized, nowadays most rounds are like shitshows lol.

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6 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

To be honest, this sounds like something i'd greatly appreciate. Forcing people to at least try and be more organized, nowadays most rounds are like shitshows lol.

You don't need to overhaul the comms for that. Back in the day, everything mattered and the stakes were high.  Spawns used to be limited, which made medics important and forced Squads to think about their movement, spawn placements, rule of engagements and so on. With limited spawn and the unforgiving and punishing nature that Squad used to have forced people to learn the game and its roles, it forced players to think about every action such as movement, fire discipline, spawn locations. Because everything matters and the stakes were high, communication was made extremely important.

 

The problem isn't the comms system. It is working fine. The problem is that all the high stakes are gone. The punishing nature of Squad is gone. This resulted in people no longer think about their actions and care about tactics, movement, spawn placements and the comms within and between squads took a massive hit because of it.

Edited by [RIP] DogBite

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10 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

To be honest, this sounds like something i'd greatly appreciate. Forcing people to at least try and be more organized, nowadays most rounds are like shitshows lol.

run a modded server with voice system disabled then, and lol, we will see what kind of shitshow you have compared to the rest of the servers
"Oh look, there's so much bad players and everything is shitshow! Let's make it so I can't even talk to them"

Edited by paragonid

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As with the suggested ability to hear enemy local chat this would force people out of the internal game coms to gain advantage.

 

I've suggested previously that radios linked back to supplies and main base with a max link distance could allow/limit some features. There are a lot of options for this.

 

I don't think that in-game coms should be limited as suggested here.

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People keep pointing to the wrong thing! Too many think that making things harder will solve the whole issue of players not acting in a tactical manner. Upping the consequences isn't a magic bullet!

 

It is assumed that if you make a tank cost 50+ tickets then the players will "use it more wisely".

 

It is assumed that if you bring back dead-dead then people will stop running straight into enemy fire.

 

Here it is assumed that adding in a radio range system will make people create more useful fobs.

 

Punishing players for making bad decisions only works to a certain extent. It is important to remember who is playing the game. It isn't v9 anymore. The community isn't made up of nothing but ARMA and PR expats. Back then the community had a general consensus on how the game was played. It was well within their wheelhouse. Nowadays I do not believe that this group is in the majority anymore. Times have changed, the game has gotten a lot more popular and a new crowd has stepped up to the plate. The new majority are just learning the hardcore tactical shooter. They came from more casual shooters. The get the FPS element but don't fully grasp the teamwork element. Most of the new crowd understand how the gamemodes work. The basics of the ticket system. How well do they know it though? Have they memorized all the ticket values for the vehicles? For most I doubt it.

 

I think it is important to take as step back and realize what we are asking for. Us forum-goers tend to have a  better understanding of the game than most. The average person hasn't sunk hundreds of hours into the game. They are just there to play a couple of matches with their buddies. Making the game harder when half the player base doesn't even get the game in the current state will do nothing other than make the matches all worse. There needs to be a balance! There are a few changes that could be made but overall the game is in a pretty good spot.

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@Geebus how do you know that it's a wrong thing though?
People keep pointing to what they want the game to be for them. And shaped in that way, they want to see success and failure dependent on their own idea of how the game is supposed to be for them.
But you judge them for it and say that you are fine with what the game is because it fills your needs pretty good?
Don't see how it's different from what people are pointing to, unless you can suggest another way of archiving what they want, except you are fine with status quo.
There's no right or wrong desires. But the method suggested to get to the desire could be.

Edited by paragonid

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@Geebus That makes no sense at all. How does the increased number of casual players validate alienating the old core player base and take away from them what hooked them in Squad for years and preventing new players from ever learning, understanding and experiencing what made Squad an amazing game. 
 

Arma and PR survived for so long because they kept scratching the itch of the core player base and hooked new players in the process. These are the type of players that will keep the game going for years. Casuals usually dont get so invested in a specific game because they arent that type of gamer or dont have the time for it and can easily switch to another game that hit their radar.

 

What will stop the player base from falling onto a downwards spiral when the casuals leave and the core player base no longer get their itch scratched? Games like this don’t come around too often so its important to speak out against the casualization. 

 

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10 hours ago, Geebus said:

Punishing players for making bad decisions only works to a certain extent. It is important to remember who is playing the game. It isn't v9 anymore. The community isn't made up of nothing but ARMA and PR expats. Back then the community had a general consensus on how the game was played. It was well within their wheelhouse. Nowadays I do not believe that this group is in the majority anymore. Times have changed, the game has gotten a lot more popular and a new crowd has stepped up to the plate. The new majority are just learning the hardcore tactical shooter. They came from more casual shooters. The get the FPS element but don't fully grasp the teamwork element. Most of the new crowd understand how the gamemodes work. The basics of the ticket system. How well do they know it though? Have they memorized all the ticket values for the vehicles? For most I doubt it.

 

I think it is important to take as step back and realize what we are asking for. Us forum-goers tend to have a  better understanding of the game than most. The average person hasn't sunk hundreds of hours into the game. They are just there to play a couple of matches with their buddies. Making the game harder when half the player base doesn't even get the game in the current state will do nothing other than make the matches all worse. There needs to be a balance! There are a few changes that could be made but overall the game is in a pretty good spot.

Although I agree only to some extent I have to disagree with a basic thing. And that is that you argue basically the problem is that the "newer" part of the community "hasn´t learnt the ropes yet". 

 

Well, I don´t really agree. If you participate, or watch at a competitive match (between clans or with the new pro-mod) you will see that there are many "gamey" tactics that are very arcade oriented. 

 

Fun, I give you that. 

 

Entertaining!, I give you that.

 

Tactics and strategy to a very high competitive level. YES. I give you that.

 

Still, its not the tactics that belong in a mil-sim. ITs arcade power-gaming exploit tactics. Die give up and respawn quickly is ever so present in those matches, BECAUSE IT WORKS. and those guys really know what they are doing. They are the ones with HUNDREDS of hours in the game.

 

So it´s not a matter of time to learn. Its a matter of WHAT players have to learn to be competitive. And there, the game sets an environment that rewards gamey tactics, NOT realistic.

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12 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Although I agree only to some extent I have to disagree with a basic thing. And that is that you argue basically the problem is that the "newer" part of the community "hasn´t learnt the ropes yet". 

 

Well, I don´t really agree. If you participate, or watch at a competitive match (between clans or with the new pro-mod) you will see that there are many "gamey" tactics that are very arcade oriented. 

 

Fun, I give you that. 

 

Entertaining!, I give you that.

 

Tactics and strategy to a very high competitive level. YES. I give you that.

 

Still, its not the tactics that belong in a mil-sim. ITs arcade power-gaming exploit tactics. Die give up and respawn quickly is ever so present in those matches, BECAUSE IT WORKS. and those guys really know what they are doing. They are the ones with HUNDREDS of hours in the game.

 

So it´s not a matter of time to learn. Its a matter of WHAT players have to learn to be competitive. And there, the game sets an environment that rewards gamey tactics, NOT realistic.

You are correct. I think you are hitting part of the point that I wanted to make but wasn't clear enough. There is a mix of new players that have no clue like I stated as well as a mix of the players that understand how to play the game but don't really play it to the spirit of the game. The gamey metas of the game should be punished.

 

13 hours ago, [RIP] DogBite said:

@Geebus That makes no sense at all. How does the increased number of casual players validate alienating the old core player base and take away from them what hooked them in Squad for years and preventing new players from ever learning, understanding and experiencing what made Squad an amazing game. 
 

Arma and PR survived for so long because they kept scratching the itch of the core player base and hooked new players in the process. These are the type of players that will keep the game going for years. Casuals usually dont get so invested in a specific game because they arent that type of gamer or dont have the time for it and can easily switch to another game that hit their radar.

 

What will stop the player base from falling onto a downwards spiral when the casuals leave and the core player base no longer get their itch scratched? Games like this don’t come around too often so its important to speak out against the casualization. 

 

I think you have missed my point entirely. Never did I say or mean to imply that we should forget about the old guard because its the casual's game now. I'm arguing that the types of solutions most people put out aren't going to do anything but punish the team. You should punish the team for bad tactics only when they stand to learn from it. A great example would be to punish people with a longer respawn timer if they give up before a certain threshold. I'm arguing that these changes should meet a balance. You can't go too far in one way or you might just end up punishing the whole team too much because some newbies got ahold of a tank. A big point I wanted to make was that simply raising the consequences for failure doesn't mean that people will start doing things in a different way.

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@Geebus I didn't miss your point mate, just think you're completely wrong.

Back in the good old days, the Squad experience was brutal, challenging, unforgiving, dynamic and required constant teamwork and communication.

People had to learn to be an SL, medic, driver etc., those who mastered a skillset made a difference in firefights and in the overall match.

You had to learn to communicate (how, what, when), you had to learn basic principles of movements, tactics, rules of engagements, the value of roles and assets and how to used all this in battles to win the game.

 

Your argument is that all this meat and layers create worse games for all because some people don't understand it. I quote you:

 
 
 
1
Quote

Making the game harder when half the player base doesn't even get the game in the current state will do nothing other than make the matches all worse.

My argument is that the opposite is true based on the casualization cycle we have been on for a while, and my question to you still stands;  How will the casual player or new player ever understand the many aspects and layers that Squad used to have if you cut it out of the game? If you cut it out of the game they will never learn it and never experience the true old Squad experience.

 

We have been on this casualization path for a while now. The use of tactics is down. The use of comms is down. The teamwork is down. The team cohesion between squads is down. Squads are often on their own little islands doing their own thing.  The importance of SL's is reduced to pooping out spawn points. Medics have been reduced to nothing. Take the medic role out of Squad and nothing changes other than not getting full health back till you die. There is no need to learn a skillset and if you have a skillset it won't have a real impact anymore. etc. etc.

As a result, the overall experience took a nosedive into the ground and resulted in worse matches for all.

 

Yes, Squad had many layers and a learning curve for each layer. You could figure out the basic principles in a matter of days, if you were open to it and willing to learn. People who didn't care about learning all the aspects of Squad and just wanted to shoot people and blow shit up still don't care about it today. The casualization of Squad only managed to rob players of the experience they fell in love with and got them hooked to Squad for years and preventing new players from ever experiencing the true Squad soul.

 

 

 

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Early versions of squad played like that because the servers were full of PR players. The design was watered down then too.

 

This idea could be really cool if the fundamental structure of Squad was better attuned to it. PR had physical radios as an inventory item, but they were only used for marking enemies. Given that most tactics are squad level rather than like platoon level, it wouldn't be a massive change for a theoretical game where tactics are already the norm. Who knows maybe the platoon would be more likely to stick to a plan if their communication isn't reliable once they're out of range of each other.

 

As is though, I think it'd be a lot of losing the ability to talk to your squad when they inevitably get split up because they wandered off died then respawned god knows where. It'd be better to fix that problem at the root.

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Best thing to do is to disable realtimefriendly position updates(either make it once every minute or not update) on map when you're too far from main/fob(let's say 750m).

This way it won't be bypassed with external voicechat programs, and still has a noticeable effect.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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14 hours ago, [RIP] DogBite said:

@Geebus I didn't miss your point mate, just think you're completely wrong.

Back in the good old days, the Squad experience was brutal, challenging, unforgiving, dynamic and required constant teamwork and communication.

People had to learn to be an SL, medic, driver etc., those who mastered a skillset made a difference in firefights and in the overall match.

You had to learn to communicate (how, what, when), you had to learn basic principles of movements, tactics, rules of engagements, the value of roles and assets and how to used all this in battles to win the game.

 

Your argument is that all this meat and layers create worse games for all because some people don't understand it. I quote you:

My argument is that the opposite is true based on the casualization cycle we have been on for a while, and my question to you still stands;  How will the casual player or new player ever understand the many aspects and layers that Squad used to have if you cut it out of the game? If you cut it out of the game they will never learn it and never experience the true old Squad experience.

 

We have been on this casualization path for a while now. The use of tactics is down. The use of comms is down. The teamwork is down. The team cohesion between squads is down. Squads are often on their own little islands doing their own thing.  The importance of SL's is reduced to pooping out spawn points. Medics have been reduced to nothing. Take the medic role out of Squad and nothing changes other than not getting full health back till you die. There is no need to learn a skillset and if you have a skillset it won't have a real impact anymore. etc. etc.

As a result, the overall experience took a nosedive into the ground and resulted in worse matches for all.

 

Yes, Squad had many layers and a learning curve for each layer. You could figure out the basic principles in a matter of days, if you were open to it and willing to learn. People who didn't care about learning all the aspects of Squad and just wanted to shoot people and blow shit up still don't care about it today. The casualization of Squad only managed to rob players of the experience they fell in love with and got them hooked to Squad for years and preventing new players from ever experiencing the true Squad soul.

 

 

 

See it has me kinda frustrated because my initial post was in my opinion pretty half-assed. You did miss my point because my point was hardly in the post at all. I tried to ramble two or three ideas together and none of them really ended up there. I agree with you almost completely. I guess that is what you get when you go forum posting when you are tired. I've been split on the casualization. I haven't felt that it was as bad as most make it out to be (in terms of gameplay changes) and have believed that the degradation in gameplay is more due to the new types of players rather than the changes in mechanics. A lot of the time I feel that when people look back on the old days, they do so with rose tinted glasses. That said, I still think it is a big problem. I don't want to see any more of the features get taken away. I do think that some gameplay changes should be made or at least reverted. They never should have made the medic less valuable. They never should have made the rally the way it is now.

There are lots of things that contribute to the place that gameplay is at today but at the core of it I still believe that most of it comes down to the playerbase. 

 

Here is the part where you might really start to disagree.

 

In my original post I attempted to address the original topic of the post by saying that most of the solutions, the ones that mostly include bumping up the difficulty or punishment, really don't solve the issue. The big example I had in mind was the idea of raising the ticket count for the tanks up. I don't think that it is as simple as punish people more and they will become better at using the asset. It has to be a balanced thing. You can't go too far in one direction or you end up making dying meaningless and you can't go too far the other direction or you will punish the team as a whole too much. This is where I was going when I stated that it would make it worse for all. You want to punish the team to an extent since this is a team game but not so far as to make the vehicles too valuable. In the end it is a game and the vehicles are supposed to die.

 

When I mentioned something along the line of "the new players couldn't handle it" I really should have been more specific and worded it much better. An idea that I have had for a while is that the old players and the new ones are fundamentally different. The old players are, like I said in my first post, a mix of PR and ARMA players. Back then they had a common mindset. They played the game like they knew how to, like a Mil-sim. Nowadays there is a much more diverse crowd of players. These players play the game like they played their old games. @Nightingale87 makes the point in his post.

On 2/10/2020 at 6:14 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Still, its not the tactics that belong in a mil-sim. ITs arcade power-gaming exploit tactics. Die give up and respawn quickly is ever so present in those matches, BECAUSE IT WORKS. and those guys really know what they are doing. They are the ones with HUNDREDS of hours in the game.

 

So it´s not a matter of time to learn. Its a matter of WHAT players have to learn to be competitive. And there, the game sets an environment that rewards gamey tactics, NOT realistic.

They don't play in the manner that maybe they should but rather in the way that the game allows. Any gameplay related changes should stop the goofy elements. There is no reason to learn how to play in the tactical manner that the game should consist of. It is much easier to take advantage of some game elements and play it like they did in a more casual shooter.

 

Hopefully I've made myself a little more clear. I don't want to start catering completely to the casual crowd. All I really wanted to say is that bumping up the consequences for failure isn't the magic bullet that many make it out to be. The casuals are more than likely here to stay. Even if they aren't here for the mil-sim elements, they are for sure here for the communication and teamplay elements. If we want to change the game to get us closer to the ideal squad then we need to remember that the casuals are here and they look at the game from a completely different perspective. Everything that is proposed needs to keep that in mind.

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