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Keonyn

Commander role heavily imbalances invasion game type

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The implementation of the commander role and the ability to call in artillery and air support was definitely an interesting addition to Squad. I mean we've all been on those teams where you're frustrated by a commander that does nothing, but overall I think it's a generally positive addition to the game even if it could use a little tweaking.

 

The problem is that the invasion game mode specifically is heavily imbalanced as a result of this addition. It's no secret that the support requests the commander has heavily favor attackers over defenders, and the problem is that the invasion game mode is entirely an attacker versus defender affair. Defenders generally will only have the time and resources, even well coordinated, to set up to defend 3 of the points at most. What you're seeing now though is attacker teams can often simply use strafes and heavy artillery to decimate the point and then walk right in. They do that 3 times and you basically get entire matches where there's little real fighting or competitive combat but just called in support basically being 80% of the matches content.

 

It works better in other modes where both teams can go on the offensive and pressure enemy points and there are no teams that have no real risk of having to be defensive. Invasion is simply a different creature and the reality is those called in supports from the commander simply benefit one team far more than the other. I've generally mostly enjoyed playing the invasion game mode over the others but, honestly, when half the games are just watching strafes and artillery do all the work it's gotten to be frustrating and boring no matter which side I'm on.

 

Honestly, those support options should be be made less available in the Invasion game mode from a balance perspective. Otherwise the game mode has basically become garbage, and with it my primary enjoyment in this game.

Edited by Keonyn

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I wonder how this could be balanced to allow all these assets to remain?

 

The first solution is to stop putting the spawn point on the flag. The most common result of this is that the loss of that spawn also means loss of the flag.

Create a network of radios around the defence.

Placing a minimum of 2 and preferably 3-4 fobs with habs as close to the point s possible is always more effective at repelling attacks AND has the benefit of redundancy. The high number of defender tickets means loss of radio has very low ticket value. If 1 flag defence looses 10 radios the ticket balance is equal.

 

in this way the defending team with a access to supplies is likely to win.

Counter the attacker airstrikes with commander activated defender supply drops.

 

 

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Any kind of slightly organized defense will win an invasion map, even if the attackers are far more organized. And with a good defense the attackers are very unlikely to reach beyond the first flag. Invasion is heavily favorable for the defenders since the required amount of coordination and tactic is much higher for the attackers. i.e the attacker must be much better than the defenders to win. So if the artillery repeatedly wipes you off the flag you are just bad..

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But you have artillery strike, too. Strike back as soon as they start capturing. Build second FOB close enough to spawn near the point, 200 meters away is enough.

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Checking in to letcha know we're reading along and very interested to hear more thoughts. Commander is still a pretty new feature, so hearing about your live experiences now that folks have settled back into the meta with it is very informative. Thank you folks a lot!

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5 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Any kind of slightly organized defense will win an invasion map, even if the attackers are far more organized. And with a good defense the attackers are very unlikely to reach beyond the first flag. Invasion is heavily favorable for the defenders since the required amount of coordination and tactic is much higher for the attackers. i.e the attacker must be much better than the defenders to win. So if the artillery repeatedly wipes you off the flag you are just bad..

Yeah, you can do away with the insults. I play primarily invasion and if what you're saying is true then most the people that play this game are "bad". Honestly, responses like this are not conducive to a healthy discussion. You can feel free to disagree but the whole "if you have this opinion it's because you suck" kinda of responses are not productive. Not to mention I think you overestimate the advantage of defense in invasion as, prior to the implementation of the commander, wins by the attackers were still quite common. Ever since the commander update I'd say attackers win more often than not simply because they can clear a point with little to no effort.

 

First off, if you build off the point then you are still leaving the point wide open and manpower you put on that point is going to get just as shredded as any defensive structures you have on the point. It still doesn't help the fact that attempting to put up any bunkers or other constructs to help defend is rendered effectively useless as they will be eliminated with the click of a button. So now you're just two teams running at the point and the attack/defend dynamic of invasion is basically eliminated. It might as well be AAS at this point except only one team can actually ever cap, so now suddenly defenders have the disadvantage because they can't set up a point for defense anymore, only push from outside like the attackers, and should they lose that point they can never get it back.

 

The commander abilities are fine overall, but in a mode where they specifically help one side more than another they become problematic given the frequency to which they can be used. I played on Tuesday night and every point we could try to muster a defense was just wiped by an A-10 or artillery barrage and then they pushed in. Every. Single. One. The frequency to which they could use these abilities was simply too great and negated the entire point of invasion in the first place. Yeah, we could setup outside the point and we did, but that doesn't change the fact that then we're basically just doing what they're doing and they have the advantage of permanently keeping the point if they win that push. The advantage of the defender is effectively negated by the use of artillery to decimate anything they did to harden the point in the first place which renders that entire mechanic useless.

Edited by Keonyn

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21 hours ago, suds said:

I wonder how this could be balanced to allow all these assets to remain?

 

The first solution is to stop putting the spawn point on the flag. The most common result of this is that the loss of that spawn also means loss of the flag.

Create a network of radios around the defence.

Placing a minimum of 2 and preferably 3-4 fobs with habs as close to the point s possible is always more effective at repelling attacks AND has the benefit of redundancy. The high number of defender tickets means loss of radio has very low ticket value. If 1 flag defence looses 10 radios the ticket balance is equal.

 

in this way the defending team with a access to supplies is likely to win.

Counter the attacker airstrikes with commander activated defender supply drops.

 

 

Seconded.

 

You can no longer do this...the game changed with commander. Besides, before commander wasn't invasion "heavily" defender biased? Especially when fighting regulars vs regulars? If anything, this re-balances the invasion game to give attackers a better chance to win. I would love to see some statistical data showing the percent of invasion games won by defenders. 

Edited by budder8818

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15 hours ago, Keonyn said:

if you build off the point then you are still leaving the point wide open

if YOU build off the point it might, players who win regularly are using the map and making better decisions.

Leading the herd is a big part of squad leading, not just the people you can talk to, lead the mindless sheep by putting the spawn and ammo supply in a place that makes it easy for them to contribute. They will hold a line and have options, not a point with predictable death and failure.

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17 hours ago, Keonyn said:

Yeah, you can do away with the insults. I play primarily invasion and if what you're saying is true then most the people that play this game are "bad". Honestly, responses like this are not conducive to a healthy discussion. You can feel free to disagree but the whole "if you have this opinion it's because you suck" kinda of responses are not productive. Not to mention I think you overestimate the advantage of defense in invasion as, prior to the implementation of the commander, wins by the attackers were still quite common. Ever since the commander update I'd say attackers win more often than not simply because they can clear a point with little to no effort.

 

First off, if you build off the point then you are still leaving the point wide open and manpower you put on that point is going to get just as shredded as any defensive structures you have on the point. It still doesn't help the fact that attempting to put up any bunkers or other constructs to help defend is rendered effectively useless as they will be eliminated with the click of a button. So now you're just two teams running at the point and the attack/defend dynamic of invasion is basically eliminated. It might as well be AAS at this point except only one team can actually ever cap, so now suddenly defenders have the disadvantage because they can't set up a point for defense anymore, only push from outside like the attackers, and should they lose that point they can never get it back.

 

The commander abilities are fine overall, but in a mode where they specifically help one side more than another they become problematic given the frequency to which they can be used. I played on Tuesday night and every point we could try to muster a defense was just wiped by an A-10 or artillery barrage and then they pushed in. Every. Single. One. The frequency to which they could use these abilities was simply too great and negated the entire point of invasion in the first place. Yeah, we could setup outside the point and we did, but that doesn't change the fact that then we're basically just doing what they're doing and they have the advantage of permanently keeping the point if they win that push. The advantage of the defender is effectively negated by the use of artillery to decimate anything they did to harden the point in the first place which renders that entire mechanic useless.

 

It is nothing against you personally, ive been wiped off the map as defenders as well. But my point still stands. It is much easier to defend that to attack. Keep a squad on point and a few working in the surrounding area to delay the enemy and take down the FOB:s. On top of that you can have a smaller group attacking his supply lines and harass vehicles. Most of the time the attackers fails to overcome this.

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The important bit is the ability to respond to changes in the situation.

When your fob goes down, how do you recover? How do you keep players in the correct area of the map?

Another spawn not too far away is the easy sheep herder method. People will spawn as fast as possible and as close as they can to the action.

Transporting out of position players - often more than half the team- back into the fight is rarely something that can be done quickly and has many risks.  When your logistics vics are trapped on a lost flag things go wrong very fast. Often the loss on one fob results in 2 or more flags being taken before a team can set up a defence. What makes this even more costly is that usually some clever SL has put a fob on a back flag. Unfortunately the enemy team is already there and have disabled it before it can be used, another argument for keeping defensive fobs out of the high traffic areas. ie not on a cap.

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