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Zimtstern

Making Squad tactical realistic. The overhaul.

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Quoting as a way to point to which part of message exactly I'm writing a comment, quoting doesn't always mean someone will disagree with you (: Easy/hard are too subjective to argue, can argue concrete mechanics

It's a player problem then, because if you can spawn somewhere where it's better for you to be, but instead you don't and survive, then it's your own decision. Embracing console "respawn" command is a skill, and a requirement to be good in Squad.

Edited by paragonid

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1 hour ago, paragonid said:

Quoting as a way to point to which part of message exactly I'm writing a comment, quoting doesn't always mean someone will disagree with you (: Easy/hard are too subjective to argue, can argue concrete mechanics

It's cool I just don't want to argue for some other game's systems if it's not super relevant

1 hour ago, paragonid said:

It's a player problem then, because if you can spawn somewhere where it's better for you to be, but instead you don't and survive, then it's your own decision. Embracing console "respawn" command is a skill, and a requirement to be good in Squad.

If the squad isn't together in the first place then the survivor issue is moot. So the best spawn has to be with the squad.

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Okay, i think I start to understand what you expect, but I don't think it's anywhere close to how almost everything is designed considering objectives plus squad system.
Squad system punishes you for losing people from squad and switching squads, both ammo+kits wise and social including relevant information, expectations, so you have to stay with one squad or pay extreme cost in ammo/losing relevant kits for yourself and other members and communication with friends.
And the same time, being next to SL ("squad") is not the META for huge amount of situations. So you either not spawn with SL, or forced to pay the price nobody is ready to play.

1. Your SL is far away from any HAB and in combat, so rally might not even come in next 5+ minutes.
2. Your SL is finishing off minor objective (digging out enemy radio), you have been killed during the huge initial push but not needed there anymore.
3. Your Squad has lost transport / have no space in transport, so they are walking for next 3+ minutes. You are dead

Those cases and many others, waiting to spawn is not meta. You should spawn as close to active fight as possible and participate there, or defense. It's due to the many factors like mirror spirit of the game and relatively high speed of engagements, which make having no manpower in the fight a huge risk, as number advantage is simply the best way to take over ground.

If you mean that it's easy to fix those in Squad, to keep the squad together, then I'm very interested what is your solution for it. I find it hard myself without huge overhaul, as those were the same situations/problems as in BF2:PR even with slower pace mechanics. The pure ability to outnumber the enemy with significant advantage resulting in losing/capturing critical objective is the factor in any game with same amount of players on both sides.
Could you give me examples of competitive games where there are squads and they always stick together by META?

Edited by paragonid

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So if you want a squad to be always together through the spawn system, it could be something like this:

Squad members can't spawn without SL spawned. (I.e. no spawn if SL is dead)
Squad members can only spawn to closest spawn point of SL and only if he is in X meters next to it. (So you have to spawn all together and not one by one in case of death)
Squad members can always spawn at main base for the cases of acquiring a vehicle.

There's still quite a lot of legitimate situations where you hinder your own abilities, like a need to bring a transport from closest FOB, which isn't possible anymore.
And "wounded" and "dead" waiting times will be increased dramatically, which sucks without something useful to do during it. Also you will sometimes be encouraged just to die quickly to let the squad respawn, which benefits smaller squads.

But such mechanics is basically revolutionary for Squad developers, they are very frugal in any unusual mechanics
Hope for non-existing modding scene (:

Edited by paragonid

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

And "wounded" and "dead" waiting times will be increased dramatically, which sucks without something useful to do during it. Also you will sometimes be encouraged just to die quickly to let the squad respawn, which benefits smaller squads.

I think the other guy (greg) and you and me agree pretty much on everything. On what kind of gameplay we would like to see, and the WHY we don´t have it and HOW it would have to change to get that.

 

Yet, this point is something I don´t share with you. For me, in PR, there is no problem with that "dead" time, or "wounded". In my eperience, if I was wounded together with a bunch of squad members, and waiting for a medic, then we would be commentong on varios things...

 

-the tactic to follow when we get revived...

-the order in which the medic should revive us...

-ammo count and positioning...

 

While being dead and waiting to respawn we would discuss...

 

-the best place to spawn based on the strategical situation of both teams...

-organize what we should do next in regards of the objective, such as What kits to swap, which new kits we might need for the new approach.

-wait for sl (or being the sl) to communicate to other squads for a change of strategy, etc.

 

So as you see, I never thought of that time span as a "waste". On the contrary, I felt that was part of playing the game. A BIG PART. Some have argued that when dead for a long time they would go outside and smoke a cigarrette, well, I´ve never done that in PR nor have I ever experienced anybody else doing such a thing. PR rounds are longer and much more intense in that way. 

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I'd argue that with a proper "individual skill" it doesn't require discussion, and discussion while other members still alive will interrupt them from surviving.

I still do tell in Squad what to do after revive, last contact position.

Only medic himself should decide order of reviving, others can advice but most of the time shouldn't.
Never seen practice of discussing "ammo count and positioning", any example?

Where to spawn is determined by SL, it's a short fast conclusion, others can advice, but most of the time it's unnecessary. I play it in Squad the same way as in PR.
Kit swapping isn't really a thing in Squad due to ammo system, unless you need AT right now, but then you already failed.

So most of it is already in the game, and I know most people are not doing it, but it's a player problem, not that it's not effective.

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28 minutes ago, paragonid said:

I'd argue that with a proper "individual skill" it doesn't require discussion, and discussion while other members still alive will interrupt them from surviving.

I still do tell in Squad what to do after revive, last contact position.

Only medic himself should decide order of reviving, others can advice but most of the time shouldn't.
Never seen practice of discussing "ammo count and positioning", any example?

Where to spawn is determined by SL, it's a short fast conclusion, others can advice, but most of the time it's unnecessary. I play it in Squad the same way as in PR.
Kit swapping isn't really a thing in Squad due to ammo system, unless you need AT right now, but then you already failed.

So most of it is already in the game, and I know most people are not doing it, but it's a player problem, not that it's not effective.

Of course SL has always the last Word, and any decent player should obey, or leave squad and create a new one and be sl of that one.

 

I haven´t seen that discussion about ammo count and positioning in squad either. People just click give up and run autistically towards the flag just to kill/die again.

 

Bottomline, for me, Squad vanilla is boring and they have no intention of changing it (only maybe towads something more aracade). That´s Why I only stick around for One life events and more "realistic" mods.

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Greg and Para, thanks for the great discussion, a pleasure to read. Amazing to see more than 2 posts in a row following a topic :)

 

I have suggested a solution to keeping squads together many times before and I still think it is a good mechanic with lots of flexibility.

 

Basically:

IF a squad member is near a spawn point 

THEN a player spawning at that point gets a reduced spawn timer, (the timer benefit is cumulative. ie more players = shorter spawn time)

ELSE the player is spawning away from other members and has to wait the full period (which can be higher than current, main can be an exception.)

 

There is so much flexibility here, radius to qualify as near a spawn, timer benefit per player, max spawn time, SL boost, commander boost...you could even negate the timer with enemy presence. 

 

In coms we would start to hear more of "Stay near the rally" or "regroup at the HAB"

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, suds said:

Greg and Para, thanks for the great discussion, a pleasure to read. Amazing to see more than 2 posts in a row following a topic :)

 

I have suggested a solution to keeping squads together many times before and I still think it is a good mechanic with lots of flexibility.

 

Basically:

IF a squad member is near a spawn point 

THEN a player spawning at that point gets a reduced spawn timer, (the timer benefit is cumulative. ie more players = shorter spawn time)

ELSE the player is spawning away from other members and has to wait the full period (which can be higher than current, main can be an exception.)

 

There is so much flexibility here, radius to qualify as near a spawn, timer benefit per player, max spawn time, SL boost, commander boost...you could even negate the timer with enemy presence. 

 

In coms we would start to hear more of "Stay near the rally" or "regroup at the HAB"

I like it. It's subtly educational and it keeps the player's options open - keep yourself out of the action a little while longer to make your squad spawn faster (like a big boy), or run off and fight on your own (since this is a game and you paid for it, to hell with everybody else).

 

This honestly might be one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time, but knowing the devs they would probably calibrate the spawning times way too leniently and we would end up with people instaspawning all over the place. At this point I'm genuinely scared to offer suggestions as one can never be sure that his feedback can't be used to make the game way, way worse.

 

I would like to add that while keeping the conversation going is definitely positive, I don't think squads not staying together is the issue preventing Squad from becoming a tactical masterpiece it once probably aspired to become. Some more important failures of game design in my opinion:

  • firefights end too quickly,
  • long distance shooting is much too easy (all shooting is too easy IMHO), 
  • value of individual player's lives is at an all-time low (we can go lower yet ;),
  • people don't care about tickets,
  • the scoreboard does not display relevant information (tickets lost vs tickets gained by player/squad),
  • persistent ammo is ineffective (instead of actually running out of ammo, people always spawn with enough to go pew pew some more).

 

Each of these could easily sustain a thread of its own, I just wanted to point out that what while squads not staying together as unit is a problem, fixing Squad the game would require a "big picture" approach that would mean a massive overhaul of several mechanics  at the same time.

Edited by MultiSquid
Formatting, corrections

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7 hours ago, suds said:

IF a squad member is near a spawn point 

THEN a player spawning at that point gets a reduced spawn timer, (the timer benefit is cumulative. ie more players = shorter spawn time)

ELSE the player is spawning away from other members and has to wait the full period (which can be higher than current, main can be an exception.)

I think it´s a good idea. I´d like to see how it plays out. 

 

But squad members get sperated not only because they die and give up quickly, but because of other mechanics. So that would solve the problem of getting the squad together. We still have the issue of how to keep it together.

 

Still, I´d like to see it.

 

Nevertheless this is true...

5 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

I would like to add that while keeping the conversation going is definitely positive, I don't think squads not staying together is the issue preventing Squad from becoming a tactical masterpiece it once probably aspired to become. Some more important failures of game design in my opinion:

  • firefights end too quickly,
  • long distance shooting is much too easy (all shooting is too easy IMHO), 
  • value of individual player's lives is at an all-time low (we can go lower yet ;),
  • people don't care about tickets,
  • the scoreboard does not display relevant information (tickets lost vs tickets gained by player/squad),
  • persistent ammo is ineffective (instead of actually running out of ammo, people always spawn with enough to go pew pew some more).

And to go back to the title of the OP. This would mean an overhaul. And as it was already pointed out, this is VERY unlikely.

 

I honestly ask, does anybody think that SQUAD will perform an OVERHAUL at this stage?

 

If Squad had wanted to become something more "realistic" as the op suggests, it would already have happend. And it hasn´t. On the contrary, it has gone, at least,  slughtly the other way.

 

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

And to go back to the title of the OP. This would mean an overhaul. And as it was already pointed out, this is VERY unlikely.

 

I honestly ask, does anybody think that SQUAD will perform an OVERHAUL at this stage?

 

If Squad had wanted to become something more "realistic" as the op suggests, it would already have happend. And it hasn´t. On the contrary, it has gone, at least,  slughtly the other way.

 

Our only hope would be somebody to start a Kickstarter to make a "spiritual successor to Project Reality " that would "differ only in its Name", right?

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9 hours ago, Titan84 said:

Our only hope would be somebody to start a Kickstarter to make a "spiritual successor to Project Reality " that would "differ only in its Name", right?

Nope. We have more options to hope fore. First of all support of hardcore mods. An official HC mod, would be good.

 

OR...

 

They can just add server settings with many of the mechanics that separate the community and that´s it.

 

It has been suggested before here, and in Reddit.

 

Sth like...

 

PERMANENT RALLIES       YES/NO

MEDIC ONLY REVIVE          YES/NO

SPAWN TIMER                      30/60/90 secs

FOB OVERRUN RADIUS       30/60/90 mts

WHATEVER YOU WANT       YES/NO

 

 

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On 4.2.2020 at 11:35 PM, MeFirst said:

This game is much more tactical.

Like any other game it has its own tactics yes but they ain't very complex. I would even say absolute straight forward so that everyone quickly mastered them. Like that squads and their leaders cant really profile themself with tactical finess making the game dull and shifting the difference between Defeat and Victory to the individual skill.

 

On 4.2.2020 at 11:35 PM, MeFirst said:

If you play Squad a lot, you realize that so called "individual skill" is not that important

No. I never did. Fire is very accuracte and therefore the effect an induvidual can take on the battlefield making his skill a core element of sucess. The resulting high casualties makes flushing in reenforcements a second core element. Since there is not much else its currently the defining elements of Squad.

On 4.2.2020 at 11:35 PM, MeFirst said:

I dont get why the "realism" crowd cant just play other games.

Oh we can and do. But Squad promised us to basicly close the gap between Arma and Battlefield, to be a new PR. Providing tactical realism in a more casual package. Unfortunately it got way to casual disappointing us guys coming from more tactical realistic games but as long as Squad claims to try to be that kind of game they promised us we will try to steer it in the right way.

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On 1/28/2020 at 4:17 PM, suds said:

accuracy deviation is a dangerous setting to mess with in online FPS which is this competitive.

 

people who feel their twitch skills are being nerfed will walk away and the player numbers will plummet.

 

not to say it cant be made to benefit more tactical play, just that it is really hard to make it satisfying and fun by rewarding skill.

 

how do you measure competitiveness?
is BF2:PR less competitive?

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