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Iron sight zoom better in post scriptum

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I've gone back on forth on Squad and Post scriptum after the new patch hit that introduced the French faction.  I haven't played Post in a while and not kept much up to date on it either, but what i found to be unexpectedly enjoyably was using iron sights, and that became very different when i whent back to squad.
The main difference is that in Post you have a bit more zoom in on the iron sights, but now that i've played both back to back i have to say that squad would probably be a lot more fun playing with iron sights if it had Post level of zoom in the iron sights. 

 

Post

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Squad

 

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I just started playing Post Scriptum and enjoy the enhanced zoom to, but wouldn't want to see it in Squad. when i compare the games Squad is still the crown jewel when it comes to the tactical aspect of the game.The importance of the different roles and the communication between. Speaking for public servers bear in mind, Post Scriptum plays more casual, little communication often, short spawn timers, though the stamina system is awesome. And to my feeling this really fit's the world war 2 era. Squad has way better distinction between uniforms then Post Scriptum, so i kind of like the raw feeling that squad gives with for example low ironsight zoom.

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iron sights guns should have no zoom at all, there is already too much zoom in guns that have no scope (30cal, aa gun, etc)

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1 hour ago, Pharanaiton said:

I just started playing Post Scriptum and enjoy the enhanced zoom to, but wouldn't want to see it in Squad.

Tbh the insight zoom should be removed. We have scopes for that job.


 

1 hour ago, Pharanaiton said:

when i compare the games Squad is still the crown jewel when it comes to the tactical aspect of the game.The importance of the different roles and the communication between.

What tactical aspect do you mean most of the time is pretty much run & gun. Even if your opponent has the superior tactics they still lose if they can keep up with the twitch reflexes.

 

1 hour ago, Pharanaiton said:

Speaking for public servers bear in mind, Post Scriptum plays more casual, little communication often, short spawn timers,

Exactly the same can be said about Squad.

Most of the Time its, die to respawn & try again. I can play other games if I want such gameplay loop.

Edited by Phoenixstorm

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18 minutes ago, EA_SUCKS said:

iron sights guns should have no zoom at all, there is already too much zoom in guns that have no scope (30cal, aa gun, etc)

Not really bothered about the iron sights if you take in consideration that you don't have real eyes to look with in-game. Compensating the blur and pixels at longer distances. A DShK has a lot of zoom true!

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@Phoenixstorm

Might not be wrong what you are saying, it is just that i don't look at it that negative as you do. i probably started playing Squad later then you.

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I think shooting in Squad is way too easy already, in all cases, so I would hate to make it even easier through 'better' iron sights.

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PS's population swelled by 1000% after chapter 2 dropped, judge the quality of play accordingly.

 

What keeps the weapons balanced is that you can't run and gun with the bolt actions. The extra zoom might help you snipe, but you still can't take ground without an infantry section. Working together is the effective way to play the game, and that's what matters. Though mostly it has more tactical potential because it avoids Squad's awful arrangement of spawns (fobs are terrible in PS, as they should be)

 

Still faster paced than I would like, but at least Periscope did a good job of simplifying tasks for everyone, by delegating responsibilities to different squads types, simplifying the gamemode, etc... which does help a lot to keep the game manageable. In contrast, Squad is faster paced than Project Reality and more complicated. Not so good.

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I'd like to see the zoom taken off all the ironsight weapons. It's gamey and silly. Human ocular resolution is already mimicked by the graphics engine; those who complain that they can see better unaided IRL than they can in game are mostly full of crap and have never tried to resolve small or camouflaged targets at long range. A few generations of graphics engines ago, there was a valid argument for ironsight zoom in "realistic" games because engines didn't resolve small targets once they were below pixel size, but this is not the case anymore; graphics engines have substantially improved in the last 15 years and subpixel targets are now resolved at realistic human ranges.
 
To demonstrate, go to Jensen's Range and look at the man-sized targets; each are about 0.3m wide. This is convenient because human ocular resolution is 0.0003 radians which subtends to 0.3 meters at 1km. In other words the smallest thing that a human with normal vision can register is 0.3m at 1km. Focus on the 1000m targets and knock two over then unzoom and take a screenshot - the final target is rendered and is visible in 1920x1080 (by far the most common resolution) even at max FOV despite the fact that a 0.3m target at 1km is less than 1/3 of a pixel wide.
 
Spotting something at such a range for a human is not easy but it's possible and it's the same in modern game engines - it's possible but only if you're trying very hard and conditions are good. In other words, giving ironsights and unmagnified optics zoom is actually giving players "super" vision equivalent to something like 20/15 vision.
 
From a gameplay perspective, and I've written about his before, there has been a design mistake made by reducing the zoom of magnified optics and increasing the zoom of unmagnified optics that sucks them all towards a central point. The effect of this is that magnified optics are better and easier to use than they should be at close range, which is amplified by none of the challenges of maintaining correct eye relief while moving or dynamically changing your point of aim being modelled and by the position of high-mounted scopes being rendered far too close to the barrel in game resulting in points of impact far too close to points of aim at <25m. The other part is that Squad ended up not adopting a PIP scope system that doesn't zoom the outside of the scope for performance reasons, and this is actually a massive buff for scopes usability since it means 1. That there is a much smaller "dead zone" of unseeable field of view taken up by the scope in the target area 2. There is a constant translation of distance into mouse movement for aiming and 3. The entire target area is magnified (but slightly blurred) increasing the useful information to the player at the expense of unused information.
 
Right now, the highest magnification optics, the US and British Marksman optics on the M110 and L129 are only zooming 5x. The TA31 ACOGs on American riflemen are zooming 3.5x while the BAF are zooming 2.5x; in fact none of the optics in the game are magnifying the right amount, every one of them is magnifying less than they should be. The marksman optics are basically functioning like TA31 ACOGs should function, while TA31 ACOG optics and Russian equivalents are functioning like TA33s. Ironsights are functioning like TA44s with focus (~20-25% magnification).
 
More zoom is not better for close range or snap engagements, and there are other realism friendly balance levers that can be used to reduce the usability of higher magnification optics like ADS time as well as losing reticle position and ghosting when moving while ADS'd or shifting point of aim too quickly. A better system than the current one would one which just accepts the reality that giving infantry optics generally makes them more effective but that a scoped rifle is much worse in certain important situations without resorting to immersion breaking ironsight zoom.

Fuzzhead has already indicated that scopes will get a second pass in beta (which is good, because there are lots of problems with them right now). I take this to mean that the aiming system is going to get a second pass, including ironsights and unmagnified optics. Hopefully we will see this system thoroughly addressed and made more immersive and authentic when that happens.

Edit: For the bore axis point, to see just how much the scope is too close to the bore axis, grab the BAF L129 marksman rifle and shoot a target at 10m while zoomed. Note the bullet impact at the 200m aiming mark - now read the markings on the scope and notice that the 10 meter zero is conveniently marked for you and is lower than the 700m aiming hash. The bullet should be hitting  about three or four times further from the centre of the screen than it is at 10m. This is an example of on of the many implementation shortcuts that have made scopes much easier to use than they should be. These sorts of things reduce the skill cap as well as contributing to balance issues.
Edited by Vewt
adding paragraph breaks, added bore axis tweaking as well

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4 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

PS's population swelled by 1000% after chapter 2 dropped, judge the quality of play accordingly.

Started playing a day after chapter 2 release so... yeah...

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@Vewt

When i bought Squad somewhere around v10, i was surprised to find out there was so much balancing instead of just going for how weapons and such really are. I had a misconception on that. I thought squad was all about realism based in a battlefield like game style. Witch was my main drive to buy the game (particularly the factions like PR does it). So when it comes to a vote, i'd vote removal to for iron sight zoom for example. But i'm speaking after 2000 hours of playing. I'm pretty sure i was very grateful that there was zoom to iron sights when i just started playing (i never played PR). Anyway, zoom or no zoom. My eyes have a biological age of 90 after playing 1 hour of Squad.

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It a good point that scopes should be fixed so that they become harder to use at and that iron/red dot had a significant advantage at  close range. Now everyone take a scope since its pretty much always the best but there should be a penalty for it. But it would also be nice to be able to use backup sights on for ex the SVD and SUSAT at close range.

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I'm not a gun owner and don't fire weapons regularly but I aimed down a rifle once, and I don't remember it zooming in down the sight. 

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22 hours ago, pigsoup said:

I think shooting in Squad is way too easy already, in all cases, so I would hate to make it even easier through 'better' iron sights.

I dont think, i know it is, being able aim in and hit targets at 200m on your first or second shot is way too easy

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I am also for removing "focus zoom" at all. Let scopes do the job. But i would like remember that in past there was no zoom for ads focus. And guess what. Other group of people complain like hell that they see nothing. Well and we are where we are now. 

Group which cry "remove zoom" is much much smaller (unfortunately) :(

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12 hours ago, you ok said:

I dont think, i know it is, being able aim in and hit targets at 200m on your first or second shot is way too easy

With optics....and if the target is standing still or moving away or towards you, not if they are moving side to side. Try doing that with with the AK-47 without a scope while the target is moving. I disagree it's way to easy. 

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On 1/19/2020 at 4:57 PM, budder8818 said:

I'm not a gun owner and don't fire weapons regularly but I aimed down a rifle once, and I don't remember it zooming in down the sight. 

I don't recall being able to revive dead people with a bandage patch. It's a game after all. 

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8 hours ago, budder8818 said:

With optics....and if the target is standing still or moving away or towards you, not if they are moving side to side. Try doing that with with the AK-47 without a scope while the target is moving. I disagree it's way to easy. 

What i was saying is that the accuracy in this game is unrealistically good. 

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Game about super-soldiers keepings weapons straight under artillery shells hitting them on the head and one tap headshotting running targets from 200m away after 3 minutes run and 5 seconds of laying down, no fear of death, no real tiredness or stress. Or are we playing different games? Not sure how you found any reality in it

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"What i was saying is that the accuracy in this game is unrealistically good. "

+ Consistency of in game mechanics implying realism =. Need to address realism in aiming argument, so you were wrong

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I like the small ADS zoom. It's not much anyway. 

 

But problem is who holds their weapon like that IRL anyway? Iron sights or scopes should be much closer to the one eye you have open. Peripheral vision almost none. Currently it looks like you are firing some kind of naval cannon in front of you. 

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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On 21/01/2020 at 9:56 AM, invisible.nin/SINE said:

I might be mistaken but in my perception, the main topic is an ironsight-zoom discussion, not level of realism.

That seems very obtuse. I'd even say deliberately obtuse.

 

Ironsight zoom is very clearly a question about the level of realism and what, if any, tradeoffs in realism are desirable to promote certain ways of playing the game.

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On 1/19/2020 at 3:10 AM, Pharanaiton said:

@Vewt

When i bought Squad somewhere around v10, i was surprised to find out there was so much balancing instead of just going for how weapons and such really are. I had a misconception on that. I thought squad was all about realism based in a battlefield like game style. Witch was my main drive to buy the game (particularly the factions like PR does it). So when it comes to a vote, i'd vote removal to for iron sight zoom for example. But i'm speaking after 2000 hours of playing. I'm pretty sure i was very grateful that there was zoom to iron sights when i just started playing (i never played PR). Anyway, zoom or no zoom. My eyes have a biological age of 90 after playing 1 hour of Squad.

 

the zoom is meant to represent 'focus' which you can't do through a game monitor. when aiming in real life you don't zoom but you can change your focus on your eyes so that things further away are easier to see. The only way for the game to represent this is with zoom. 

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