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Adriansun

Mortars "have to go"

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Hello,

 

Having a game where the enemy cannot get in and start to use mortars for 10, 20, 30, 40 ...minutes is not fun. I would like to suggest 50 rounds of mortars per eg. 20 or 30 minutes. If you cannot hit anything with 50 rounds then too bad for you.

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I'd just force the commander to be close to the action instead of being able to click on the map anywhere nearby a random hab.. That way there is at least some risk.

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So what you are saying is that you dont like that the enemy is shooting at you so his ability to do so should be nerfed?
Mortars should not be nerfed, the point of using them besides killing you is to make your life miserable so that you becomes less effective in fighting. And obviously it works.

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Guys my English is just too bad or he wrote too badly? I didn't understand what he wants? 

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17 hours ago, drfreee said:

Guys my English is just too bad or he wrote too badly? I didn't understand what he wants? 

Agree. The sentence does communicate the problem he is having clearly. You have to use context clues to figure out what he's asking. I think he wants to limit the amount of mortar rounds a team can fire because he doesn't like the idea of a team constantly mortaring him.

 

This is another attempt to casualize the game. There are three ways you can stop mortars:

 

1. You devote a 5-6 man squad specially to hunt down mortar FOBS. They are rarely defended by more than 3-4 people. 

2. You devote a 2 man vech squad to disrupt supply lines

3. You can devote a 3 man squad to build a counter mortar FOB after you've located it. 

 

Those solutions stays true the core teamwork and communication aspect of the game and doesn't causalize it with a stupid mechanic like "limiting the amount of mortar rounds a team can fire in a match."

 

Strongly Disagree with proposal. Frankly, after writing this reply and re-reading his post, I think he is attempting to troll the player base who are advocating for a more realistic experience. 

Edited by budder8818

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On 1/18/2020 at 7:45 AM, Guan_Yu007 said:

I'd just force the commander to be close to the action instead of being able to click on the map anywhere nearby a random hab.. That way there is at least some risk.

Sure that could work too. Not completely sure that it would be enough. At some point when mortars do not work then that attack just have to stop. We cannot sit around some sort of roof / in the hab for forever. The enemy will not move in, because of mortars. We will not move out, because of mortars. The only time someone will die is when they are tired of waiting. When these long mortar attacks start then it is like playing another game that just is not fun.

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On 1/20/2020 at 6:06 AM, budder8818 said:

1. You devote a 5-6 man squad specially to hunt down mortar FOBS. They are rarely defended by more than 3-4 people. 

2. You devote a 2 man vech squad to disrupt supply lines

3. You can devote a 3 man squad to build a counter mortar FOB after you've located it. 

 

That's a lot of resources spent on countering something that cost very little(in manpower, time, and tickets) and require almost zero skill to use(just need to punch numbers into calculator and click/reload away; yes you can pretend there is more advanced techniques, but basic point-and-click is already effective in most cases).

1. 5-6man off frontline already did mortar's job for them (on top of however many mortars were able to kill/suppress)
2. vehicle taken off frontline is already a win, as above(considering mortars rarely are able to kill vehicles anyway); since mortar fob can have defenses that can 1-2shot whatever vehicle you throw at it, assuming it has enough supplies (if it's constantly spamming as OP described, it probably does)

Above two assumes they actually get the job done instead of get hit/killed along the way(which makes them far worse as "counter").
Because if you're not camping enemy team's main base; they will just pop up another mortar fob in another location within 10 minutes after losing paltry amount of tickets. (it takes far less time to set up another mortar fob behind frontlines than it does for people to sneak around the edge of map towards enemy main)

They also do not take much teamwork/communication aside from maybe commander spotting it with UAV.  Since you're not actively working with rest of the team while hunting for a mortar fob(unless you count giving emotional support over voicechat).

3. Sounds great in theory, but when the only viable/economical counter is the the exact same thing...there's a problem

Mortars can be easily(and it should be) toned down a bit by making mortar ammo cost more points(ATGMs also cost a lot of points so there is no reason not to).  Can begin with bumping it slightly up to a nice even number of 100ammopoints per mortar magazine.
It can even be removed in invasion layers on Blufor side. (like how PR removed mortars for Blufor on insurgency modes)  Or have different values between factions for balance.

Also, it almost doesn't need to be in the game considering commander firesupport exists now; those two combined can be too much(as if building static defense isn't already inefficient enough) for certain maps.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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56 minutes ago, EcchiRevenge said:

Mortars can be easily(and it should be) toned down a bit by making mortar ammo cost more points(ATGMs also cost a lot of points so there is no reason not to).  Can begin with bumping it slightly up to a nice even number of 100ammopoints per mortar magazine.

 

I would be on board with an increase the ammo amount, especially given the introduction of helicopters and the large supplies trucks have now. That would encourage a better logistical game. 

 

56 minutes ago, EcchiRevenge said:

1. 5-6man off frontline already did mortar's job for them (on top of however many mortars were able to kill/suppress)
2. vehicle taken off frontline is already a win, as above(considering mortars rarely are able to kill vehicles anyway); since mortar fob can have defenses that can 1-2shot whatever vehicle you throw at it, assuming it has enough supplies (if it's constantly spamming as OP described, it probably does)

Above two assumes they actually get the job done instead of get hit/killed along the way(which makes them far worse as "counter").
Because if you're not camping enemy team's main base; they will just pop up another mortar fob in another location within 10 minutes after losing paltry amount of tickets. (it takes far less time to set up another mortar fob behind frontlines than it does for people to sneak around the edge of map towards enemy main)

 

I disagree with your assessment in the context of invasion layers (90% of my squad playtime has been on invasion layers).  The majority of the time the offensive team will be using the mortars first since they know for a fact that 80%-90% of the team is going to be within a 300-400m radius of the cap point with a high probability or they are trying to attack static defenses with indirect fire (sadly commander has greatly diminished this role). That being said, the defenders are going to be countering the mortar FOB most of the time. For defenders on a full 40v40 invasion map, devoting a 6-5 man squad or one BTR or SPG is not a resource drain on the team because the defenders have 800 tickets to start with, a head start on each objective and the advantage of always defending. Conversely, the offensive team has very little tickets, no head start and the disadvantage of attacking; which means they are not going to be able to afford devoting a 6 man squad just to defend a motar FOB...which means it should be lightly defended. 

 

 I've seen all three tactics used many times with both success and failure.

 

Furthermore, I find mortars to be rarely used in AAS games....of course that could just be speaking to my lack of play time in AAS. But my intuition tells me mortars are much more difficult to utilize effectively in AAS than invasion. Finally, if it is a resource drain in AAS...shouldn't that be a reward to the opposing team that managed to place a well concealed mortar FOB and are coordinating there indirect fire with their team? Mortars are another communication/team work aspect to the game and I would hate to see it get nerfed or worse removed, as you have suggested.

 

 

Edited by budder8818

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45 minutes ago, budder8818 said:

 

I would be on board with an increase the ammo amount, especially given the introduction of helicopters and the large supplies trucks have now. That would encourage a better logistical game. 

 

 

I disagree with your assessment in the context of invasion layers (90% of my squad playtime has been on invasion layers).  The majority of the time the offensive team will be using the mortars first since they know for a fact that 80%-90% of the team is going to be within a 300-400m radius of the cap point with a high probability or they are trying to attack static defenses with indirect fire (sadly commander has greatly diminished this role). That being said, the defenders are going to be countering the mortar FOB most of the time. For defenders on a full 40v40 invasion map, devoting a 6-5 man squad or one BTR or SPG is not a resource drain on the team because the defenders have 800 tickets to start with, a head start on each objective and the advantage of always defending. Conversely, the offensive team has very little tickets, no head start and the disadvantage of attacking; which means they are not going to be able to afford devoting a 6 man squad just to defend a motar FOB...which means it should be lightly defended. 

 

 I've seen all three tactics used many times with both success and failure.

 

Furthermore, I find mortars to be rarely used in AAS games....of course that could just be speaking to my lack of play time in AAS. But my intuition tells me mortars are much more difficult to utilize effectively in AAS than invasion. Finally, if it is a resource drain in AAS...shouldn't that be a reward to the opposing team that managed to place a well concealed mortar FOB and are coordinating there indirect fire with their team? Mortars are another communication/team work aspect to the game and I would hate to see it get nerfed or worse removed, as you have suggested.

 

 

Invasion layers tend to have much worse/fewer vehicles for defending side so it's generally worse to dedicate a vehicle to mortar-hunting.

Especially considering how bad SPG-9 are these days(also highly vulnerable to smallarms fire).

 

Having more tickets doesn't matter that much if you don't have enough bodies on/around point to defend the point.  Because at that point you're forcing defenders to attack a superior force(vehicle wise if nothing else) while further weakening defense; this also requires you to out-flank the flankers on attacking side(which means more time spent - and you risk running into enemy MBT which is often maneuvering around the point instead of going straight toward it if they're not terrible).  This is on top of commander firesupport(which afaik isn't disabled in that mode).  As previously mentioned: even when you destroy the fob completely - they can set up another one in under 10 minutes elsewhere if they don't build too many defenses.

Many maps(if not all of them) do not even allow logistic vehicles to get to the first cap before round starts to even the odds.

That's assuming attacking team didn't just bumrush the cap while you're looking for mortar fob.

Finally, not when it costs a lot less to set up than it is for other side to take down(taking into account the risk of going after a mortar fob instead of defending the cap in a more direct way).
Now if a radio getting taken down by enemy costs 50-100 points - that's a different story.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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Mortars are totally stupid in this game. I hate games where you are being bombarded the whole game while the enemy infantry is right outside shooting you. Some people don't seem to understand that no army will mortar and attack you at the same time. That's just ****ing retarded. 

 

I would suggest for mortars to be very devastating but add a timer - think of it as a re-supply timer of the shells- so that way you are not being mortared for 40 minutes a game.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Chinchilla said:

Some people don't seem to understand that no army will mortar and attack you at the same time. That's just ****ing retarded. 

4-2. Mortar Support During Offensive Operations

 

Real life manual, on how the marines use mortar fire during offensive operations. Ie, they shoot at you at the same time that they mortar you. Get it now?

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1 hour ago, Chinchilla said:

Mortars are totally stupid in this game. I hate games where you are being bombarded the whole game while the enemy infantry is right outside shooting you. Some people don't seem to understand that no army will mortar and attack you at the same time. That's just ****ing retarded. 

I have no idea where you get this from. Can you share some sources???

 

1 hour ago, Chinchilla said:

I would suggest for mortars to be very devastating but add a timer - think of it as a re-supply timer of the shells- so that way you are not being mortared for 40 minutes a game.

A timer for mortars? NO. Absoulutely disagree. 

 

What should be added is the tuve heating up and preventing you from firing. We can find some sources on the recommended rounds per tuve fire consecutively within a safety frame from heating.

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11 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

I have no idea where you get this from. Can you share some sources???

 

A timer for mortars? NO. Absoulutely disagree. 

 

What should be added is the tuve heating up and preventing you from firing. We can find some sources on the recommended rounds per tuve fire consecutively within a safety frame from heating.

Look, the fact is that in Squad mortars can be easily operated by one person, while also being at maximum efficiency. It takes one guy to do what requires anywhere from 2-5 ppl to operate. It is too easy to use a mortar in this game: You have a calculator that finds the range for you automatically, the mortars are loaded magically, it requires 1 person to fully operate. 

 

So now you have a guy that strokes himself after firing each round while all he does is left click from a safe position.

 

maybe my previous ideas were not thought-out all the way, but there should surely be a better way to operate a mortar in this game. For example, maybe have at least a crew of 2 to operate one mortar. Also, maybe even increase the cost requirement to operate the weapon. These changes will allow mortars to be effective, but at a cost... Because in the meantime, if you have 1 guy with a mortar calculator that can constantly bomb you the whole game, and that should not be the case.

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Your argument to take mortar's out because the enemy won't attack? NO way, I disagree. The enemy (opposing team) need's to do a better job in TEAM WORK! Best example was yesterday's round, me and another squad member were firing mortar's when an enemy snuck up on us and killed us both! Mortar issue solved. LOL

 

Our fault for letting our guard down! Keep mortar's is my VOTE...

Edited by CigarPimp

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1 hour ago, RED.Misfit said:

Cooldown should nerf it enough to simulate an overheat on usage. A simple thing that makes sense.

Just some "heating bar" that goes up, basically preventing the firing of many rounds non stop. Which is realistic and gameplay wise, effective.

 

Maybe the penalti for over doing it would be that the mortar is rendered useless, and it has to be "dug down" and rebuilt.

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