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DualFlameBane

Do artillery and helicopters need nerfs?

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I think the artillery strikes are too powerful.  They pretty much wipe everything off a FOB, so every objective assault can become "blast with artillery then walk in."  It looks like the artillery is simulating, what, six guns?  Maybe that should be cut in half.  That's like having an entire battery supporting a platoon, which seems excessive anyway.

 

Helicopters are far, far too resilient.  They are flying tanks- it's like they are simulating a Hind rather than a Hip and a Blackhawk.  This encourages silly tactics with them.  On the battlefields being simulated, using these helicopters as gunships with the door gunners should not be able to work as well as it does.  The helicopters should fear getting too close to anyone with a machinegun, rather than being able to take a dozen hits from a 30mm autocannon and continue flying.  That's ridiculous.

Edited by DualFlameBane

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I think the way artillery works needs to be changed completely.... Calling in artillery should not require the commander to be near any HAB, but near the action itself, along with the SL requesting it. It shouldn't be a simple click on the map. If this is changed, i don't mind how insanely powerful it is.

 

Helicopters need a massive armour nerf. Seriously, the flight model also needs to be improved upon massively.

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can you shoot out the pilot? I dont think so, right? thats lame, come on OWI, we could shout out the pilot in PR, it was fun! make it possible so we can kill the pilot like in PR

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I don't mind the arty too much in the size of the strike but do think that it is way to powerful against fortifications. I can understand big arty shells completely destroying sandbags but hesco barriers seem like they need to be way more resilient. They for sure should be heavily damaged but not to the extent of them just being deleted from the map instantly. Same with the Grach and Warthog.

 

As to helicopters they really need to do an overhaul of the whole system. The flight model is janky as hell. Not to mention there isn't damage to the tail rotor and such. Small arms should at least pose some threat to a helicopter. A BMP sure as hell should be a major threat. A helicopter shouldn't be able to withstand multiple hits from a 30mm without major flight model changes. As of right now you can fly over enemy positions without any threat of getting shot down or even substantially damaged.

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I don't mind that the commander isn't near the action when he calls in an artillery strike- that's sort of how an FDC works in real life.  It's just way too powerful.

 

I don't feel as strongly about the airstrikes.  They seem to miss occasionally, which limits them enough, and neither is as devastating as the artillery.  Really, with artillery the way it is building any sort of FOB is idiocy.  They're just targets.  Nowadays all anyone ever does in plop a HAB down for respawning, and maybe an occasional ATGM just because you need them to take out the armor since the LATs are so weak.  Nobody fortifies any more, unless it is someplace protected from artillery, like in a hanger or bunker.

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only takes a few ap shots to take down a heli with a bmp , btr , bradly , aa  just know where to aim AND NOT TO MISS :)

 

and i think artillery should be buffed in my oppinion i mean driving or running through artillery with almost no problem is a bit silly in my oppinion and those shells are quite easy to evade

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10 hours ago, DarrenGaming said:

only takes a few ap shots to take down a heli with a bmp , btr , bradly , aa  just know where to aim AND NOT TO MISS :)

 

and i think artillery should be buffed in my oppinion i mean driving or running through artillery with almost no problem is a bit silly in my oppinion and those shells are quite easy to evade

That's actually wrong because HE or AP-I should be what's used to do damage to choppers.  Not simply AP which should have just overpenetrated trans choppers most of time anyway.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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On 1/17/2020 at 2:51 AM, DarrenGaming said:

only takes a few ap shots to take down a heli with a bmp , btr , bradly , aa  just know where to aim AND NOT TO MISS :)

 

and i think artillery should be buffed in my oppinion i mean driving or running through artillery with almost no problem is a bit silly in my oppinion and those shells are quite easy to evade

You're absolutely insane if you think artillery needs to be buffed. The fact you can completely empty any point of defenders or fortifications of any sort makes even trying to defend largely pointless unless that point has some sort of structure to provided protection, and few do. The Invasion game mode in particular is all but ruined by artillery as it is right now and is borderline unplayable.

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13 hours ago, Keonyn said:

You're absolutely insane if you think artillery needs to be buffed. The fact you can completely empty any point of defenders or fortifications of any sort makes even trying to defend largely pointless unless that point has some sort of structure to provided protection, and few do. The Invasion game mode in particular is all but ruined by artillery as it is right now and is borderline unplayable.

You're absolutely insane if you think that one fob on top of the flag is "defense" or that being hit by the artillery couple of times and running out of the hit radius is any normal. Calling everyone insane who is fine with BF2:PR with stronger artillery for years is pretty insane too. Or maybe it's just that calling everyone disagreeing with you absolutely insane is absolutely insane, i'm not sure about that.

Edited by paragonid

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

You're absolutely insane if you think that one fob on top of the flag is "defense" or that being hit by the artillery couple of times and running out of the hit radius is any normal. Calling everyone insane who is fine with BF2:PR with stronger artillery for years is pretty insane too. Or maybe it's just that calling everyone disagreeing with you absolutely insane is absolutely insane, i'm not sure about that.

PR artillery is the *only* area attack option.

Squad has more...

 

---
Also, "a few AP" doesn't down choppers.
It needs well over 10(assuming you actually hit).

Oh wait, they're playing blufor with actually good damage on autocannon AP.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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27 minutes ago, EcchiRevenge said:

PR artillery is the *only* area attack option.

Squad has more...


OK, so? You can't call both-only-Squad area attacks in the same time, how should it make people being ok with strong PR area attack insane?

Edited by paragonid

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7 minutes ago, paragonid said:


OK, so? You can't call both-only-Squad area attacks in the same time, how should it make people being ok with strong PR area attack insane?

So?  Why should it make people being okay with strong PR area attack insane?  It doesn't and isn't my point anyway.

"Strong" PR area attack is often glitchy(which is why JDAM was removed) and any more would be overkill anyway.

Squad ones does the exact same thing: remove pretty much anything static in that area(and it does).

On top of that, there is CAS strafe(but no effective AA)...etc.

In effect Squad Commander can cause double the damage.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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1 hour ago, EcchiRevenge said:

So?  Why should it make people being okay with strong PR area attack insane?  It doesn't and isn't my point anyway

Not sure why are you even quoting me for the post addressing calling people absolute insane, but let's do it.

 

1 hour ago, EcchiRevenge said:

"Strong" PR area attack is often glitchy(which is why JDAM was removed) and any more would be overkill anyway.

How is it glitchy? I doubt there's anything not glitchy in squad anyway. The point what is overkill and not is not proven in any way.

 

1 hour ago, EcchiRevenge said:

Squad ones does the exact same thing: remove pretty much anything static in that area(and it does).

It doesn't remove anything in the building. It doesn't remove humans, it's possible to tank the damage and make kills while shells hit you on the head.
 

1 hour ago, EcchiRevenge said:

On top of that, there is CAS strafe(but no effective AA)...etc.

Any closed armor is effective AA. Trans choppers is not CAS

 

1 hour ago, EcchiRevenge said:

In effect Squad Commander can cause double the damage.

Can you show me the math of how you quantified it?


It's the exact purpose of area attack to remove static defenses, it is supposed to wipe the area. Everyone putting all their eggs in one basket and crying that their only superfob gets destroyed express pickachu face. Gameplay benefits from dynamic combat, fortifying one position and defending from inside for the whole game is lame.

Edited by paragonid

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4 hours ago, EcchiRevenge said:


I like quoting for no reason 

What para says above is the only reason commander boomtime is effective. If more than 3 people die in an airstrike they should get a popup that says "Defend the perimeter, not the asset. Repel attacks, don't wait for them to get closer. Don't get pinned down!"

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16 hours ago, paragonid said:

You're absolutely insane if you think that one fob on top of the flag is "defense" or that being hit by the artillery couple of times and running out of the hit radius is any normal. Calling everyone insane who is fine with BF2:PR with stronger artillery for years is pretty insane too. Or maybe it's just that calling everyone disagreeing with you absolutely insane is absolutely insane, i'm not sure about that.

Straw man arguments are not valid. I didn't say it was the *only* way to defend, but generally if you're trying to hold a point you are going to need a presence on the actual point. One of Squads great functions was the ability to set up bunkers and barriers and gun emplacements to harden areas that are vital for defense. Unfortunately as it is right now that entire function is rendered useless since all of that is instantly taken down with the click of a button. It doesn't do much good to build those outside the area you're trying to defend, plain and simple.

Maybe calling it insane isn't the right approach, but honestly it's a bit humorous anyone could possibly try to argue that the artillery actually needs a buff. I could see someone saying it should be left as-is and I would hear that out, but the idea it needs to be buffed is honestly mind-boggling.

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11 hours ago, paragonid said:

It's the exact purpose of area attack to remove static defenses, it is supposed to wipe the area. Everyone putting all their eggs in one basket and crying that their only superfob gets destroyed express pickachu face. Gameplay benefits from dynamic combat, fortifying one position and defending from inside for the whole game is lame.

Funny, because what you're advocating for has the opposite effect. The artillery strikes do not create dynamic combat, quite the opposite, it shoehorns any effort to defend in to a specific approach and all but eliminate the usage of a large component of the game by rendering hardened positions useless. Sure, I could harden a position outside the point, but then they'll just nuke that spot instead. I could harden two positions outside the point and they'll just nuke one and go around the other in to the point since the point itself won't be defended. I could harden the point and an area outside and then the point gets nuked and they go around the 2nd area. The idea that if you want to try to harden a point you're going to need to set up 3 radios is a little ludicrous.

 

So instead people just simply can not put even a little faith in setting up emplacements and bunkers anymore because the commander can eliminate them with the click of a button. That alone wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the frequency to which these nuke buttons become available as well. You talk about dynamic combat but yet what you are defending has the exact opposite effect. In fact, the whole function is largely used to avoid combat altogether.

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1 hour ago, Keonyn said:

Straw man arguments are not valid. I didn't say it was the *only* way to defend, but generally if you're trying to hold a point you are going to need a presence on the actual point. One of Squads great functions was the ability to set up bunkers and barriers and gun emplacements to harden areas that are vital for defense. Unfortunately as it is right now that entire function is rendered useless since all of that is instantly taken down with the click of a button. It doesn't do much good to build those outside the area you're trying to defend, plain and simple.

Maybe calling it insane isn't the right approach, but honestly it's a bit humorous anyone could possibly try to argue that the artillery actually needs a buff. I could see someone saying it should be left as-is and I would hear that out, but the idea it needs to be buffed is honestly mind-boggling.

> Uses ad hominem as the first and only argument in whole post
> Implies his argument is valid while not based on anything except ad hominem and blaming opponent for using a logical fallacy
> Appeal to emotion as the main filler
> de facto demagogue

All of the rest of your shit is low level baseless assumption

Edited by paragonid

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1 hour ago, Keonyn said:

Funny, because what you're advocating for has the opposite effect. The artillery strikes do not create dynamic combat, quite the opposite, it shoehorns any effort to defend in to a specific approach and all but eliminate the usage of a large component of the game by rendering hardened positions useless. Sure, I could harden a position outside the point, but then they'll just nuke that spot instead. I could harden two positions outside the point and they'll just nuke one and go around the other in to the point since the point itself won't be defended. I could harden the point and an area outside and then the point gets nuked and they go around the 2nd area. The idea that if you want to try to harden a point you're going to need to set up 3 radios is a little ludicrous.

 

So instead people just simply can not put even a little faith in setting up emplacements and bunkers anymore because the commander can eliminate them with the click of a button. That alone wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the frequency to which these nuke buttons become available as well. You talk about dynamic combat but yet what you are defending has the exact opposite effect. In fact, the whole function is largely used to avoid combat altogether.


Okay, so you say you want to have 1 position and not it being destroyed by anything, and it makes combat dynamic?
I'm not sure we have same understanding of dynamic combat. Could you elaborate?

How making enemy attack more than 1 position in the same time make combat more "not dynamic" than only requiring him to attack one position for the whole match?

> ludicrous
Appeal to emotion again

> a little faith
Appeal to faith

> you are defending has the exact opposite effect
repeating yourself. Explain how?

> the whole function is largely used to avoid combat altogether.
Based on what?

Edited by paragonid

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18 hours ago, paragonid said:

Not sure why are you even quoting me for the post addressing calling people absolute insane, but let's do it.

 

How is it glitchy? I doubt there's anything not glitchy in squad anyway. The point what is overkill and not is not proven in any way.

 

It doesn't remove anything in the building. It doesn't remove humans, it's possible to tank the damage and make kills while shells hit you on the head.
 

Any closed armor is effective AA. Trans choppers is not CAS

 

Can you show me the math of how you quantified it?


It's the exact purpose of area attack to remove static defenses, it is supposed to wipe the area. Everyone putting all their eggs in one basket and crying that their only superfob gets destroyed express pickachu face. Gameplay benefits from dynamic combat, fortifying one position and defending from inside for the whole game is lame.

You need to play PR to know.
Basically - it often doesn't work; some random model or terrain or whatever blocks the damage of a near-impact which should kill someone but didn't.

I think you're talking about opfor mortars strikes. 

(blufor artillery killed top, not roof, and bottom floor)

No, none of them are.  Being able to damage aircraft doesn't mean it's effective AA.

Killing everything once with artillery -> strafe on same spot to kill everything(or close enough) again.

If that's its exact purpose then "Creeping barrage" wouldn't need to be an option.
Gameplay already makes "fortifying one position" bad as played can already build easy-button mortars that cost almost nothing(both in actual resource points and manpower/time) to fire. (hence people complain they're getting bombarded 24/7)
And proper fortifications are directional so all you had to do was flank a "superfob" if people ever bother building such things.  And I don't see you calling for mortars to be rebuilt for "flanking"(why would you when you can sit in same spot for whole game and hit almost everything on map).
You're simply playing the wrong gamemode if fortifying a point is considered not okay to you.

In conclusion, both commander firesupport AND mortars(as they currently are, which is "balanced" around the absence of commander artillery strikes) at same time is way too much bullshit, at least one needs to be toned down.

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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5 hours ago, EcchiRevenge said:

You need to play PR to know.
Basically - it often doesn't work; some random model or terrain or whatever blocks the damage of a near-impact which should kill someone but didn't.

I think you're talking about opfor mortars strikes. 

(blufor artillery killed top, not roof, and bottom floor)

No, none of them are.  Being able to damage aircraft doesn't mean it's effective AA.

Killing everything once with artillery -> strafe on same spot to kill everything(or close enough) again.

If that's its exact purpose then "Creeping barrage" wouldn't need to be an option.
Gameplay already makes "fortifying one position" bad as played can already build easy-button mortars that cost almost nothing(both in actual resource points and manpower/time) to fire. (hence people complain they're getting bombarded 24/7)
And proper fortifications are directional so all you had to do was flank a "superfob" if people ever bother building such things.  And I don't see you calling for mortars to be rebuilt for "flanking"(why would you when you can sit in same spot for whole game and hit almost everything on map).
You're simply playing the wrong gamemode if fortifying a point is considered not okay to you.

In conclusion, both commander firesupport AND mortars(as they currently are, which is "balanced" around the absence of commander artillery strikes) at same time is way too much bullshit, at least one needs to be toned down.


I.e. doesn't work just like in Squad but it's still stronger in BF2:PR

Your definition of effective AA is known only to you and irrelevant then.


If you get bombarded, then you need to move. It's been like that at least since WW1. Stop acting like it's middleage and out castle are impenetrable. You can fortify whatever you want, you play wrong game if you think that 1 fob defense fortification is supposed to be the only one you ever build.

In conclusion, artillery should be buffed and damage anything including humans and fortifications in static buildings, staying on topic, as the fun fact, mortars are being build on your impenetrable bullshit castle fob, and artillery is exactly a tool to remove them without need to walk in. If you have no own recon to counter enemy mortars, pinned and one place as whole team and can't move, you are supposed to die to artillery.

 

As a test of how any closed vehicle is effective AA, I'm ready to demonstrate in controlled environment how I make you leave area/deny taking off after landing in your tank chopper in any closed vehicle by your choice, even MRAP with M240 

Edited by paragonid

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Proper helicopters nerf is removing the optimization fog.

But the all knowing and thought about everything in such a way that nobody else would ever add anything useful developers (close to direct quote xD) are saying hur dur being shot from war away is bad. (Which is bullshit and you won't hit me on such distances anyway)

Edited by paragonid

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

Proper helicopters nerf is removing the optimization fog.

But the all knowing and thought about everything in such a way that nobody else would ever add anything useful developers (close to direct quote xD) are saying hur dur being shot from war away is bad. (Which is bullshit and you won't hit me on such distances anyway)


Remember ATGMs have a hard limit that is much shorter than their IRL counterparts.

They clearly already nerfed everything. (ATGM range, autocannon damage - or at least BTR's 30mm, 14.5mm damage...etc.)
And there's no AA kit yet.

What they didn't want to tell you is that...the game would run even more terribly if they increase view range/remove fog. (not that people don't already know)

Unfortunately this engine is built for low-playercount arena shooters; even fortnite is a stretch(BR also counts on player numbers to rapidly decrease past the initial few minutes).

Edited by EcchiRevenge

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I think they should have skipped the artillery strikes and the UAVs and gone for heavy mortars (that actually do damage) instead. Mortars take skills and time to set up and can be taken out. Game would have been more fun that way.

Edited by SpecialAgentJohnson

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Regardless of nerving or buffing artillery i think one main problem is the difference when it comes to open FOBs like in a wood or a "protected" FOB placed in a wooden shack which actually shouldnt protect anything from artillery or an airstrike unless its a concrete bunker. I know we dont have map destruction but there has to be a way to fix this.

Edited by gshAT

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