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Dufflespud

The Rally System: Project Reality vs. Squad

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Posted (edited)

 

The Rally System: Project Reality vs. Squad

The purpose of this post is to clearly display the differences between the rally point system in Project Reality and Squad to foster discussion. I want to know what people like and dislike about both systems. I’ll post my own opinions in a comment.

 

Project Reality

·        Squad Leader kit required

·        2 squad members nearby

·        No enemies within 125m

·        Disappears after 60s unless within 300/600m of friendly FOB or APC

o   The range depends on the size of the map (2x2km/4x4km)

·        Is disabled if any enemy comes within 125m

·        Rearms every 60s

o   Overrun rally takes 5min to rearm

·        Players may spawn as soon as their timer runs out

 

Squad

·        Does not require Squad Leader kit:

o   With SL kit only requires 1 squad member nearby

o   Without SL kit requires 3 squad members nearby

·        No enemies within 50m

·        Does not disappear automatically

·        Is disabled if any enemy comes within 30m

·        Rearms every 120s

·        Players must spawn in waves every 60s

 

As you can see these systems are quite different despite sharing the same basic concepts. I’ve made some very crude graphics to help illustrate the differences in distance on both a 2x2km and a 4x4km map. Each point of origin is a common radio placement/objective area. I chose popular maps to help players visualize the distances.

 

Fool's Road (2x2km)

*Ignore 10m circle, squash radius is 30m*

UyYYfm9.jpg

 

Tallil Outskirts (4x4km)

0KJRUU2.jpg

 

If anything is unclear or you have questions please let me know! :)

 

P.S. 

I realize that there may be issues with Squad that go a lot deeper than just the rally mechanics, and I'm ok with discussing those topics. However, I would ask that everyone try and keep this thread focused primarily on the rally system and what we want from it. Thank you!

Edited by Dufflespud
Incorrect disable range on Squad's rally. The wiki states 10m but it is currently 30m. Thanks Fuzzhead!

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Nice post! :) 

 

Personally, I love both RP sys, both are structured to fit different needs. Because the two products play differently. You can clearly see that Squad RP is meant to be stickier, in every sense of the word. Casual friendly!

 

Remove RP from Squad entirely and you have changed the gameplay dynamic of squad. All of the sudden, game rounds are lost on the bases of losing HABs.

 

Its simple math really. 1 – 1 = 0

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I'd be shocked that so much of the community is coming to that conclusion, but given how mistreated the rally is in Squad I guess it shouldn't be a surprise

 

The important thing to remember is no matter how weak the rally was in PR, it was always a better spawn than the FOB. That's what made it a reliable tool for squad cohesion. That's why it's called the 'rally', it gets everyone together. If people are choosing to spawn FOB instead, or the rally is far away from the rest of the squad, then it isn't working as originally intended.

 

On the other hand removing rally and thereby making the SL into a pure UI construct with no actual power over their squad would finally fulfill the true meta of squad, whining endlessly that nobody plays the game right. Reddit guys would love it. Why not, we're already halfway there already.

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Posted (edited)

The rally mechanics from Project Reality are more punishing for sure, and I prefer them over the mechanics currently in squad. This is because:

 

1. The larger range requirements for placing a rally would help slow down the pace of a match by keeping player spawns farther away from combat. It also makes it harder to pinpoint where the enemy is if you get the "enemy is too close" message. 50m vs. 125m

 

2. The temporary nature of the rally point encourages using it to regroup with teammates who couldn't be revived, and less as a permanent spawn for your squad to trickle out of. Take note that it is still permanent within a certain range of a radio, which allows for more spawning options when defending, flanking, etc. This also puts more importance on building a strong network of FOBs.

 

3. Rally is overrun at 125m instead of 30m. The squash distance is too small for my taste. In Project Reality if you fought another squad one on one it was pretty obvious when their numbers were dwindling. One team would get the upper hand and either force the opposing squad to retreat or be wiped out. In Squad it's more like fighting a loose conga line of bad guys until you finally reach their rally point.

 

4. The increased timer when a rally is overrun only helps to reinforce the idea that you should not use it for direct reinforcement into combat. It further helps to slow down the pace of the game by encouraging players to spawn away from the front lines.

 

While I do appreciate what Project Reality accomplished, there are some things that I like about Squad's current rally system as well:

 

1. Not requiring the squad leader kit, with the punishment of requiring more squad members nearby to place the rally. It lets a squad lead take a different kit if he so desires, and gives a squad who's SL might have disconnected a chance at regrouping. 

 

2. Wave spawning is... good? I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it to be honest. I like having all my guys spawn in at once, but I feel like spawn timers are a tricky subject for a different post.

 

TLDR: I prefer PR mechanics for rallies because they support a slower pace of the game and make combat more unforgiving. (With exceptions)

Edited by Dufflespud

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1 hour ago, BatSithCrazy. said:

Remove RP from Squad entirely and you have changed the gameplay dynamic of squad. All of the sudden, game rounds are lost on the bases of losing HABs.

I'm not arguing for that. The rally holds a key role in the way squads operate.

3 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

The true meta of squad; whining endlessly that nobody plays the game right.

You made me spit out my coffee. Top lol m8.  Also, I agree with the rest of your post.

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Squad's Rally mechanics are not set in stone - definitely not happy with how they are (ab)used in current gameplay - even after Buddy Rally feature removed for most facitons.

Also the current over run range is 30m not 10m.

 

An important part of the Rallypoint mechanic comparison from SQ to PR that is overlooked on the above discussion is the persistent ammo system, which is not part of PR but plays a factor into forward spawns (particularly Rally spawns) in SQ.

 

Thanks for the discussion guys, keep it going :)

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The old PR rally was very balanced for both attackers and defenders and proved to work very well cause of a very well implemented tested and innovated rally beyond a whole decade.

I wouldn't mind if Squad started with such rally system and tweaked it further with persistent ammo and more.

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5 hours ago, fuzzhead said:

An important part of the Rallypoint mechanic comparison from SQ to PR that is overlooked on the above discussion is the persistent ammo system, which is not part of PR but plays a factor into forward spawns (particularly Rally spawns) in SQ.

I love persistent ammo.

 

Still, in this specific issue, I think it´s more irrelevant than you might think.

 

The general underlying meta is rush-pew pew-respawn-rush … repeat.

 

So it diesn´t really matter if I spawn with 2 mags because it´s enough for me to rush the enemy´s flank that is 100 mts away from my spawn, take a couple down before I die and I respawn again and repeat.

 

If the whole squad does that, continuously all the time, then eventually the enemy line is borken and defeated. 

 

Basically constant action anddue to the proximity of spawn points makes the 3rd, 4th 5th and the rest of magazines IRRELEVANT. Since I 2 mags is enough to engage in CQB effectively and kill one before I die. 

 

The point is that this great mechanic (persistent ammo) is not enough to change the tide of the meta Squad has. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

The general underlying meta is rush-pew pew-respawn-rush … repeat.

That's only possible because besides persistent ammo we have a persistent rally spawn which injects new hostiles every 60 seconds ... reminds me kind of Left4Dead2 xD

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We all know how proud you are of your rally nerfs fuzzhead but how's that supposed to help the rally nobody likes it

 

The purpose of the rally at this point is inscrutable. They started out flawed, and since then the constant nerfs have only drained them of any utility they might have once had. I'd be shocked if I saw anyone (or anyone else, I guess) defend them these days.


Given that they hold the ire of both the lead designer and the entire community at large the smart move might be to scrap rallies and start over with something else. I nominate SL spawn, let's go. BF2 mode will surely bring us the golden age of squad

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

We all know how proud you are of your rally nerfs fuzzhead but how's that supposed to help the rally nobody likes it

 

The purpose of the rally at this point is inscrutable. They started out flawed, and since then the constant nerfs have only drained them of any utility they might have once had. I'd be shocked if I saw anyone (or anyone else, I guess) defend them these days.


Given that they hold the ire of both the lead designer and the entire community at large the smart move might be to scrap rallies and start over with something else. I nominate SL spawn, let's go. BF2 mode will surely bring us the golden age of squad

Nobody suggests to renounce on Rally's or to switch completely to BF2 mode, that would be just crazy.

And it would be very far away from the Golden Squad time, although even now we are still quite far from it.

The rally will always remain an important tool in the arsenal, that much is certain. 

The only thing we criticize is the fine tuning. In the concept it is a help-tool but at the moment it's the main attack tool.

If you're offended by this and Salty, I'm sorry.

Edited by Phoenixstorm

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Posted (edited)

I don’t want development of SQUAD to be dictated by trying to adopt Squad to fit or satisfy the needs of certain segment of Squad players base at the cost of excluding others. It’s very dangerous and slippery slope. Tip the scale too much to the left, and right will become vocal. Move it the other way and the leftist scream.

 

My thoughts are that the developers of Squad should be left to pursue their vision of Squad, in peace and quiet. However, I think it’s healthy to take onboard opinions with moderation and balance. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing.

 

Very few of us can understand the effort it’s takes to keep a balancing act going in every decision-making process, on a daily basis, it’s difficult. Let the developers be developers, give them the space to play around, make mistakes, let them find out what works and what doesn’t. At the end of the day, we’re all beneficiaries of a creative development team.

 

It’s healthy that people are reminded of that, from time to time

 

Nothing kills creativity more than anger and toxic pressure to deliver. This instant gratification syndrome has to stop among players of squad, it’s not healthy environment to develop in.

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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I'd like to see a test where rally needs to be rearmed. Lots of flexibility in cost and also a timed recovery as well.

 

It would be amazing to be able to drop a rally and then pick it up again for later use.

Moving, drop>regroup>pick up and continue.

Attacking/Defending, drop safely away from action and leave it 

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Posted (edited)

There is a sentiment that there’re two different kind of audiences who are sharing their point of view on Rally Point system.

 

Viewpoint of Casual player, and a Squad Leader perspective.

 

"Casual Players" see the RP spawns as nothing more than (getting myself the fastest way to a kill), nothing more.

 

Players like these have a short tolerance span, all they really want, is to get back into the action, get their fix, before they need to logout. That’s the consequence of having (free weekends), it's where the majority of (ab)used RPs, assets take place. 

 

If the idea was to have a meta of give up, spawn, give up, spawn. Then you have certainly achieved that kind of mindset and gameplay with squads RP system. The problem with RP, is the convenient reliance on speed of the respawn, and how soon it becomes available after death, almost no downtime, thats an issue.

 

Let’s be honest, Squad has been changed by the developers to be played at a faster gameplay. Results of which is negligible behaviour by players in respect to tickets. The mindset is, if enough people do it, it has to be OKEY! for me to keep giving up, it becomes a new normal.

 

Pressing give up - Cost of one ticket, as it relates to me, is cheap! only if I do it! - train of thought of most plebs.

 

Cost of Death in Squad is a afterthought, and not a primary concern with the majority of Squad player base.

 

The inflation of ticket value on assets have reach a all time low. It has turned "Squad Meta" into a Cod match with everyone throwing every ticket they have into the meatgrinder, including the kitchen sink, until one side reaches 30 – 50 tickets, all of the sudden, squad meta slows down and becomes Project Reality for the last 15 mins of a match.

 

15 - 30 tickets left in a match!? EVERYONE in a Public SERVER, go! "DON'T GIVE UP!", its like a lightning bolt strikes and everyone suddenly become aware of tickets, imaging if plebs played this conservative and in FEAR of losing tickets for the entire span of the match. 

 

This is the Squad meta of today, on every public server you visit. 

 

If you want to solve abuse of tickets in RPs and in the overall gameplay. You need to slow down the meta, with new numbers.

 

giphy.webp?cid=790b761173c7ddadef4c100a0

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, fuzzhead said:

An important part of the Rallypoint mechanic comparison from SQ to PR that is overlooked on the above discussion is the persistent ammo system, which is not part of PR but plays a factor into forward spawns (particularly Rally spawns) in SQ.

Good point, but I lean towards the argument Nightingale87 and BatSithCrazy present: Persistent ammo doesn't do quite enough to justify a less punishing rally system. There is certainly a balance that can be struck, however, that I would prefer over the current system.

Edited by Dufflespud

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1 hour ago, Dufflespud said:

Good point, but I lean towards the argument Nightingale87 and BatSithCrazy present: Persistent ammo doesn't do quite enough to justify a less punishing rally system. There is certainly a balance that can be struck, however, that I would prefer over the current system.

Yes I agree with that sentiment.

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7 hours ago, suds said:

I'd like to see a test where rally needs to be rearmed. Lots of flexibility in cost and also a timed recovery as well.

 

It would be amazing to be able to drop a rally and then pick it up again for later use.

Moving, drop>regroup>pick up and continue.

Attacking/Defending, drop safely away from action and leave it 

I´d actually like to see that implemented. As a try out at least.

 

Droppable/rearmable rally. 

 

I have many doubts about how it could be implemented but I´d definetely like to see how it Works out.

 

Still, having some other known and tested options to make the gameplay more tactical, then maybe the known road is a safer one.

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Posted (edited)

If you want Squad to continue to be this ARCADY pew-pew fps. Don’t change a thing, you are on the right track!

 

However, if you find an issue with Squad at moment and how it plays, then here are some examples on how you can proceed.

 

the lack of “Fear of loss" in Squad.

 

Right now, when I play squad, there is no “fear of loss”, meaning assets and tickets are handled with no care, because they have been cheapened down to have almost no value.

 

-When a TANK costs 20 tickets. Its cheap, it says, you can use me and discard me as you please without any significant impact or care. NO ONE CARES. It’s a fact.

 

- However, change the value of the TANK to cost 100 tickets. All of the sudden every motha*f on that server is going to CARE what happens to that tank. And how its being used, fear of loss of the tank will also effect crews playstyle in the field.

 

And here is the beauty of it all, if some dishrag decides to waste 100 tickets worth, THE ENTIRE SERVER WILL LET THEM KNOW they are wasting assets.

 

The rest will resolve itself, 

 

If you want to bring authenticity to squad, you need to add back the element of “fear of loss”, without it you are just another casual Battlefield.

 

What I love about Project Reality and hoped squad would have, is this collective receptibility for your actions. You are literally striping squad of any kind of “YOUR ACTIONS can have severe consequence on the battlefield by being reckless”.

 

There is NO URGENCY for anyone to feel that an asset is important if it value cost is 5 tickets, 10 tickets, 15 tickets or 20.

 

KZFSwGD.gif

 

If you really want to change, and start giving back to the community, you really need to take a hard look at what can be done to promote a feeling of responsibility from casual player towards the team they are playing on.

 

You have one of the best server management community’s around, they will sort out the details, but you need to start from your end, or not! You can carry on as you are doing and people will flock to something different eventually. (like a Project Reality Mod for Squad). At that point it will be at your loss, devs.

 

 

 

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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I don't think there's any fixing rally while FOBs stay the same. The relative power of spawns is a real thing, as long as the FOB is a better spawn than a rally then it will always be a redundant feature.

 

Post Scriptum managed to salvage something out of Squad's rally only because they didn't have monster FOBs to contend with. Nothing natural about it, this an entirely self-inflicted issue.

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Posted (edited)

Here is another idea, if you genuinely want casual players to STOP reckless behaviour! Why not add some accountability like a "notification warning" to snap the player out of his bad habits, spread awareness of ticket abuse to the player thru alerts.

 

Let’s say, I keep pressing the “give up button” after every death and using the RP in an abusive way, revoke or disable temporarily GIVE UP BUTTON for that player, after 7 give ups in a row.

 

And Only ENABLE the "GIVE UP" button, again, after the player is picked up by a medic! 

 

giphy.gif How is it possible that this isn’t a thing in SQUAD boggles the mind!

 

Add a tiny (give up) counter to the (squad members list), so that the squad leader can see how many times each member has been giving up, keeping track and give them a polite warning, or if the squad leader needs to improve his squads overall ticket management.

 

Please do somthing...

 

Like, WHY!!! is there no tools in squad for accountability to help support healthy gameplay. These tiny changes can mean the world of a difference for SLs that are overburdened with constant influx of casuals.

 

I love that you have added squad numbers to assets in the field, GREAT! Expand on that, give us Squad leaders more UI information to discourage abuse and bad habits!

 

 

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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