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Zylfrax791

Commander Role

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The Commander role definitely needs some fine tuning. Very rarely do you see someone stick with it, especially in long Invasion matches. I'm not really sure why this is but I think people are mostly just getting bored with it now that the novelty has worn off and the role has no actual perks other than "gee whiz, look at muh destruction".

 

First off, the name "Commander" is a real misnomer. The feedback from many different folks here has always been that unless the role actually has some teeth to it so to speak then it would be nothing more than a glorified forward observer or JTAC. Sure the Commander can tell you to do this or go over there and do such and such but honestly there's little compulsion in a public match of random players.

 

So yeah, in that respect the narrative presented by a large percentage of users here seems to have come to fruition. Either the role title should be changed to "Controller" or the Commander should get the actual ability to demote squad leaders and effect actual change in the game.

 

Would such a change be prone to abuse? Certainly. Of course there might be the possibility of that but considering the fact that the server licensing agreement dictates such a stringent admin presence on official servers I think such a change would be not only welcomed but actually embraced by the majority of players.

 

To this day there are still too many people off doing irrelevant side missions that have little outcome to the match so such a change would go a long ways towards reeling in such behavior without being heavy handed so to speak.

 

Needless to say a demoted SL would get a cool down where they wouldn't be able to create another squad for say 10 minutes but after that time period was over they certainly could not only start up another squad but they could also attempt to usurp the current Commander with a new vote.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791
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A commander that can demote squad leaders sounds like a bad idea. It would be abused constantly and would only serve to further disorganize teams. I think the command role can seem very lackluster when you have squad leaders with their own agendas who don't care about an overall team strategy. This is especially apparent in the current 'spam the flag with infantry' meta. Once gameplay slows down and engagements become less frequent/more meaningful (hopefully) then I think the commander will be much more useful for coordinating squads and making sure everyone has good intel.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/2/2020 at 11:53 AM, Dufflespud said:

A commander that can demote squad leaders sounds like a bad idea. It would be abused constantly and would only serve to further disorganize teams. I think the command role can seem very lackluster when you have squad leaders with their own agendas who don't care about an overall team strategy. This is especially apparent in the current 'spam the flag with infantry' meta. Once gameplay slows down and engagements become less frequent/more meaningful (hopefully) then I think the commander will be much more useful for coordinating squads and making sure everyone has good intel.

One of my very first suggestions in this forum was that the game needed a melee weapon. The amount of endless hand wringing and flaming was off the charts. "It'll ruin the game" they said. "You'll have entire squads running around the entire game knifing people" they said...uh huh...

 

Then finally melee weapons got implemented, it was a novelty for a weekend and fast forward to today and hardly anyone uses save killing a dude on a mortar just to be cheeky.

 

The same thing applies to this idea. Again I have to bring up the stated philosophy of the game.

 

Philosophy:

"Squad" recreates the rigors of modern combat in a visceral environment where teamwork and communication are necessary for victory.

 

Actual Game:

Hey boy this is RAAS! Don't be a pussy and hesitate! Don't wait to see where the actual flags are gonna be! You gotta strike while the irons hot son! Grab that there Logi and hustle your entire squad over to the entire wrong side of Yeho and build a super Fob! Don't listen to the Commander either about retreating and bringing the only Logi back to help the rest of team because you're gonna win the game with your mortars from 3km away!

Edited by Zylfrax791
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On 1/2/2020 at 1:53 PM, Dufflespud said:

A commander that can demote squad leaders sounds like a bad idea. It would be abused constantly and would only serve to further disorganize teams. I think the command role can seem very lackluster when you have squad leaders with their own agendas who don't care about an overall team strategy. This is especially apparent in the current 'spam the flag with infantry' meta. Once gameplay slows down and engagements become less frequent/more meaningful (hopefully) then I think the commander will be much more useful for coordinating squads and making sure everyone has good intel.

This. If you add the ability to demote squad leaders then you just make the problem worse. Just think how often you see squads where the squad leads either has his game crash or he just disconnects for some reason. Very rarely do I see someone really competent steps up to fill the role. More often than not that squad just passes the role around for a bit then a bunch of people begin leave pretty much removing that squad from the game. It would do more harm than good.

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18 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

One of my very first suggestions in this forum was that the game needed a melee weapon. The amount of endless hand wringing and flaming was off the charts. "It'll ruin the game" they said. "You'll have entire squads running around the entire game knifing people" they said...uh huh...

 

Then finally melee weapons got implemented, it was a novelty for a weekend and fast forward to today and hardly anyone uses save killing a dude on a mortar just to be cheeky.

 

The same thing applies to this idea. Again I have to bring up the stated philosophy of the game.

 

Philosophy:

"Squad" recreates the rigors of modern combat in a visceral environment where teamwork and communication are necessary for victory.

 

Actual Game:

Hey boy this is RAAS! Don't be a pussy and hesitate! Don't wait to see where the actual flags are gonna be! You gotta strike while the irons hot son! Grab that there Logi and hustle your entire squad over to the entire wrong side of Yeho and build a super Fob! Don't listen to the Commander either about retreating and bringing the only Logi back to help the rest of team because you're gonna win the game with your mortars from 3km away!

yep agree on the 2nd paragraph i mean i am own of the very view who can hold a long stealth between hostile groups/fob because i use the knife . i mean i got of 5 months of having the game i am i almost have everyday at least 6+ kills and i play daily from 2 hours to up to 16 hours a day so i mean try to get greedy with the knife and besides that its always fun to kill them and see thier reactions.

 

-by the way i still didn't got knifed by a enemy so who will be the first one :) 

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45 minutes ago, DarrenGaming said:

yep agree on the 2nd paragraph i mean i am own of the very view who can hold a long stealth between hostile groups/fob because i use the knife . i mean i got of 5 months of having the game i am i almost have everyday at least 6+ kills and i play daily from 2 hours to up to 16 hours a day so i mean try to get greedy with the knife and besides that its always fun to kill them and see thier reactions.

 

-by the way i still didn't got knifed by a enemy so who will be the first one :) 

I really don´t know what your point is!!?!?!?!

 

Are you trying to agree and say that there is too much lonewolfing and you are a good example of that...

 

Or are you trying to say that you can be an effective lonewolf because people dont communicate enough to neutralize you...

 

Or what¿?…

 

Sorry, I don´t get it.

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not lonewolfing i have mostly my squad wait outside when shtf and or if there are to much hostiles in a compound and i mostly am scouting ahead as an SL to give my squad the heads up i am just greedy for knife kills and its silent and deadly

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:38 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

One of my very first suggestions in this forum was that the game needed a melee weapon. The amount of endless hand wringing and flaming was off the charts. "It'll ruin the game" they said. "You'll have entire squads running around the entire game knifing people" they said...uh huh...

 

Then finally melee weapons got implemented, it was a novelty for a weekend and fast forward to today and hardly anyone uses save killing a dude on a mortar just to be cheeky.

 

The same thing applies to this idea.

Adding a new type of weapon to the game is not equivalent to adding a mechanic that allows one player to decide if another player needs to be kicked out of a role they chose. Your argument seems to be that since you were right about knives, that makes you right about this. One good idea doesn't make all of your ideas good, that's a fallacy.

 

If you want to refute my argument, answer this question:

What's stopping a player in the commander role from demoting every single squad lead that doesn't do exactly what he wants?

 

As for the philosophy of the game vs. the actual game, I completely agree with the philosophy you described. I also agree that some players can be foolish with assets and play without teamwork, but that doesn't change the core philosophy that you described. Most games I play, the majority of squad leads want to work together and communicate. It's my understanding that the commander supplements teamwork and communication between squads, only if the squad leaders trust his decisions and leadership.

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22 hours ago, Dufflespud said:

What's stopping a player in the commander role from demoting every single squad lead that doesn't do exactly what he wants?

 

Like I already pointed out but you failed to read, absolutely nothing except for the conditions laid out in the server administration guidelines.

 

 

The guidelines require a pretty stringent admin presence on officially licensed servers and if you take the time to read the guidelines you'll see that admin could easy rectify any such abuse of the system if it was considered blatant hindering or griefing and if it effected the integrity of the server. Nevermind the fact that it's a small community and such excessive behavior would easy leave such a person with no place to play quite quickly.

 

More unnecessary hand-wringing in my opinion. Either it's a real leadership role that can control the outcome of the match or it's simply a glorified JTAC role and name it as such.

 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

absolutely nothing except for the conditions laid out in the server administration guidelines

 

22 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

admin could easy rectify any such abuse of the system if it was considered blatant hindering or griefing

 

22 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

if it was considered

This is what worries me. It doesn't matter if the commander or the admin makes the decision, it's still taking freedom out of a player's hands based on another player's opinion on how the game should be played. You do make a good argument, but I still think it's a bad idea. I doubt we can change each other's minds on this one. Good discussion! :)

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1 hour ago, Dufflespud said:

 

 

This is what worries me. It doesn't matter if the commander or the admin makes the decision, it's still taking freedom out of a player's hands based on another player's opinion on how the game should be played. You do make a good argument, but I still think it's a bad idea. I doubt we can change each other's minds on this one. Good discussion! :)

 

Think about this for a minute though. An SL can remove anyone from their squad for any reason whatsoever. It's right in the guidelines. Serveral servers I play on already have rules specifically based on keeping the gameplay focused on the objectives. They'll warn you first and then if you don't comply they'll kick you out of the match.

 

Needless to say, how is this any different?

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Needless to say, how is this any different?

That's a good point. I would argue that kicking a squad member isn't equivalent to removing a squad leader, since a kicked player can immediately join a different squad or even make their own. A player still has freedom to take charge of how they want to play.

 

You bring up a good point about server rules, and I'll agree with you there. There isn't really much difference between the mechanic you've suggested and simply having an admin step in. Those who blatantly disregard server rules or outright choose to sabotage a game should be removed, we agree there.

 

I think the fundamental reason we disagree is that I don't want the commander to become the absolute authority for a team. I enjoy the freedom that squad leaders currently have to execute their own plans and ideas. When squad leaders communicate and form a plan together, that's when games shine! When one SL takes his squad off to some remote spot, that's just something you have to work through with whatever resources you have left. At least, that's the way I see it.

 

There's always going to be someone doing something that you think is wrong, or that you could do better. On the opposite side of the coin there will always be someone who can show you something new or tell you every mistake that you make. That's what makes Squad so appealing to me. There is a social aspect to this game that you cannot find in any other game (except PR).

 

As for the commander role, I completely agree that he needs something more. As for what that is, I'm not sure. In project reality he could spawn a command rally that the entire team could spawn on, but that wouldn't work with the current way that rallies work. The more I read through our arguments so far, the more I see that this issue is deeper than the commander role. I feel like I keep peeling back layers of this game to think about and analyze. Holy cow this game is awesome! Thanks for keeping this discussion going @Zylfrax791, you're giving my brain a real workout! xD

 

 

TLDR: Don't give commanders the authority that only admins should have. Squad leaders are more important and I think they should lead first.

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On 1/6/2020 at 10:59 AM, Dufflespud said:

What's stopping a player in the commander role from demoting every single squad lead that doesn't do exactly what he wants?

Absolutely nothing.  He's the commander.  You gets what you deserves.

 

90% of the games I play devolve into a horde of squads off doing their own uncoordinated thing, and half the players on any squad are off loan-wolfing like juveniles.  Some people here keep bleating about the "freedom" to play however you want, but that's not Squad's design goal!  They are trying to encourage team play, and when you lone-wolf you screw your team.  So maybe this game just isn't for you.  Seriously- I'm not being critical of you or anything, but maybe not.

 

The truth is that any plan, no matter how bad, is better than no plan.  Giving the commander teeth would help, here.  Allow impeachment by a vote of SLs if he starts being abusive or something, if you are worried about that, but give him teeth.  You talk about cooperation among SLs?  Well, the SLs can certainly give suggestions to the commander, just like IRL.  But the commander should be the final authority.

 

Truth is, on the VAST majority of servers I've been on people are pretty good about allowing one another a little freedom.  I hear stuff like "Hey SL, can I go east to find that tank with my HAT kit?"  and the answer is always "Sure, go for it."

Edited by DualFlameBane

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