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I vaguely remember kickstarting this turd. Where are the jets?

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Edited by hades

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Manned jets still doesnt work in a fps game without a huge nerf and the gameplay becomes extremely arcadish. Yes it would be fin with jets, but you cannot have them in a fps game and maintain any kind of realism. For ex air superiority fighters... A BVR missile has a range of 100+ km and a VVR missile can reach up to 30 km. It simply doesnt work on a 5x5 km map. The nerfing needed to make them work in the game is so huge thats its better to just skip them.

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1 hour ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Manned jets still doesnt work in a fps game without a huge nerf and the gameplay becomes extremely arcadish. Yes it would be fin with jets, but you cannot have them in a fps game and maintain any kind of realism. For ex air superiority fighters... A BVR missile has a range of 100+ km and a VVR missile can reach up to 30 km. It simply doesnt work on a 5x5 km map. The nerfing needed to make them work in the game is so huge thats its better to just skip them.

They work in Project Reality and the maps are smaller :) ! Squad is a copy of PR with minor differences, I don't see how your argument holds up. But none of that really matters or does it! It's all automated now...anyway, with a push of one button, u get 150mm shower of death :) very realistic, no?  

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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Yes, they work because they are so arcadish and nerfed that you can fit them on a small map.but their speed is maybe 20 % of what it should be and bombs are doing about as much damage as mortar rounds in squad... You also have a magic box marking enemy vehicles for you so everything you do is point and click. Not that i dont like jets but i dont think that they should be combined with infantry gameplay since their scale is so different. The jet gameplay will be far worse than War thunder with no realism at all. If i want to fly jets its better to play DCS or some other flight sim. 

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7 hours ago, hades said:

I vaguely remember kickstarting this turd. Where are the jets?

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Stay positive. Unreal Engine is evolving rapidly especially in the area of extremely large open world maps and multiplayer replication. Maybe there is a future potential to implement fixed wing aircraft into the game after all simply by upgrading the entire game to the newest version.

 

You have to remember that only a few years ago the top developers at Epic Games were saying on their forums that UE was only an arena engine and recommended a maximum of 32 players in replication. But look how far it's advanced since then.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

. The jet gameplay will be far worse than War thunder with no realism at all. If i want to fly jets its better to play DCS or some other flight sim. 

Nobody argues that. The point for people who do want to see flyable jets is not whether the game would be a Good flying simulator, but how everything comes together. The combined arms aspect plus the "everything is player made" gameplay PR has is what makes them "work".

 

When people say they "work" on PR, they dont mean the flying experience is realistic, not for the pilot, nor for people on land. But when you add everything together, you get something that you Will never get in Warhtunder, DCS, etc.

 

Basically when an AA missile is shot from the ground, you just "KNOW" it was a player firing at you. When a Squad leader uses laser desgnator for the CAS to fire at an enemy tank behind a hill, you just KNOW, there eas a player, a human being in every step of that process. 

 

That is what people want to see when they argue in favor of flyable jets.

 

In my opinión, adding an AI controlled jet adds nothing to the game. After the third time I see it and I´ve Heard it,...its just immersion. Its a scripted algorithm and period.

 

I would sacrifice some realism for a more "realistic" general experience of the battlefield.

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23 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Nobody argues that. The point for people who do want to see flyable jets is not whether the game would be a Good flying simulator, but how everything comes together. The combined arms aspect plus the "everything is player made" gameplay PR has is what makes them "work".

 

When people say they "work" on PR, they dont mean the flying experience is realistic, not for the pilot, nor for people on land. But when you add everything together, you get something that you Will never get in Warhtunder, DCS, etc.

 

Basically when an AA missile is shot from the ground, you just "KNOW" it was a player firing at you. When a Squad leader uses laser desgnator for the CAS to fire at an enemy tank behind a hill, you just KNOW, there eas a player, a human being in every step of that process. 

 

That is what people want to see when they argue in favor of flyable jets.

 

In my opinión, adding an AI controlled jet adds nothing to the game. After the third time I see it and I´ve Heard it,...its just immersion. Its a scripted algorithm and period.

 

I would sacrifice some realism for a more "realistic" general experience of the battlefield.

Agreed. All this automated JTAC stuff seems disconnected from the "DIY" spirit that made the game unique. It was kind of cool at first until a few weeks later its just another "me too" novelty feature like some other similar games. Like everything else in the game you should have to physically setup something, aim it and fire.

 

A mobile artillery vehicle for conventional forces or perhaps a howitzer you build on a fob fits more into the paradigm of Squad instead of this lazy automated stuff honestly. I hope its just a "crutch" until real hands on hardware can make it into the game.

 

 

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On 2019-12-26 at 8:40 PM, Nightingale87 said:

Nobody argues that. The point for people who do want to see flyable jets is not whether the game would be a Good flying simulator, but how everything comes together. The combined arms aspect plus the "everything is player made" gameplay PR has is what makes them "work".

 

When people say they "work" on PR, they dont mean the flying experience is realistic, not for the pilot, nor for people on land. But when you add everything together, you get something that you Will never get in Warhtunder, DCS, etc.

 

Basically when an AA missile is shot from the ground, you just "KNOW" it was a player firing at you. When a Squad leader uses laser desgnator for the CAS to fire at an enemy tank behind a hill, you just KNOW, there eas a player, a human being in every step of that process. 

 

That is what people want to see when they argue in favor of flyable jets.

 

In my opinión, adding an AI controlled jet adds nothing to the game. After the third time I see it and I´ve Heard it,...its just immersion. Its a scripted algorithm and period.

 

I would sacrifice some realism for a more "realistic" general experience of the battlefield.

I get the same way. I get turned off by hearing and seeing a AI animation of automatic bombing run. Yes, its noob friendly! But REMOVING the element of “real player” behind the trigger and skill just make it less entertaining to watch, as there is no element of (IS SHE GOING TO MAKE IT, or NOT) moment.

 

The build-up of anticipation and the joy of witnessing a synchronised ground to air target acquisition and elimination of the target, is hard to describe too “players” that have everything served for them on a silver platter.

 

For people that are old school PR players. Anything less is just, meehhhh… whatever…

 

Squad players today >>>  giphy.gif?cid=790b761150a38c8639c50c6d31  If you have not played PR, you will never get it!

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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1 hour ago, BatSithCrazy. said:

For people that are old school PR players. Anything less is just, meehhhh… whatever…

 

Squad players today >>>  giphy.gif?cid=790b761150a38c8639c50c6d31 If you have not played PR, you will never get it!

Thanks, made my day :D

Edited by Phoenixstorm

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Imo, if jets get introduced, they will be the second most arcadish part of the game. The first one is being able to get revived by any squadmate after taking 50cal to the head.
There is little room for supersonic vehicles in a 5x5 km setting.

Edited by saamohod

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11 hours ago, saamohod said:

Imo, if jets get introduced, they will be the second most arcadish part of the game. The first one is being able to get revived by any squadmate after taking 50cal to the head.
There is little room for supersonic vehicles in a 5x5 km setting.

The way I see it, "realism" and "realistic gameplay" are two different things.

 

"Realistic gameplay" is an intent to have an overall seemingly realistic experience of a situation, in this case a 21st century battefield with combined arms.

 

"Realism elements" focuses on every thing on the way.

 

Look at it this way: If we ask, do you want people to be revived by teammates or not?

 

"Realistic gameplay" players answer would say "YES", because it REPRESENTS (key Word here) the higher capability of a squad that stays together and communicates over isolated individuals with no teamwork.

 

"Realistic elements" answer would be something like this: Only from those wounds that can be easily healed in the battlefield to bring someone back to combat effectiveness and by personell trained to do so.

 

So as you see, they are two different approaches. In my opinión, many of the arguments in SQUAD bounce back and forth between these two. PRoblem is that some people think that one of the apporaches is "Arcady" when it really isnt. The arcady answer for that question would be something like this….

 

"YES" there should be a medic class that can revived people and give adrenaline shots to teammats and when he does those players get endless stamina for 10 seconds and a boost of 100hp and improved accuracy through lower weapon Sway. Reviving is secondary because anyway the spawn time is 5 seconds and we spawn right next to the enemy.

This answer represents most videogames in the side of COD, BF, etc.

 

Should a person be revived form a .50 in their head. Again… different answers depending on your approach.

 

So to address your point, I would say that you are taking the term "realistic" only as "realistic elements", and associating "realistic gameplay" with "arcady".

 

If done well (like PR, the gradnpa….!) then jets can be implemented to have a more "realistic gameplay" that centers on developing an environment where everything that happens in the game is the result of human action, and the more elements you add, the more complex the human interaction becomes in that battlefield.

 

This is a summary of PR experience seen from several points of view. 

 

MArksman located high on tower spots enemy tank movement next to hangars, far from action. Reports back to Commander. Commander is flin UAV and flies over location. Spots target and contacts "CAS" squad. Cas squad is flying far from there and has no munition left so he RTBs. At the same tike COmmander informs in general SL channel about the nme tank and marks it on the map. Yet another player, near the área, decides to get closer and spot the tank with its own eyes. SL sees it at 500 mts and contacts CAS squad telling them that he can designate target for precise bombing. By this time, CAS is air again and agrees too coordinate with SL x. Sl x tells his squad to hold fire, hide and just report contacts because they need to be stealthy, so they set a perimetre and go on overwatch.SL uses his Target laser designator to "Paint" the tank, and communicate swiht the CAS pilot who says "I got it" and flys over target dropping a pinpoint accuracy projectile and "KABOOM".

 

This short summary only begins what is eperienced by players. EVERYTHING is man made. Everything leads to different outcomes. Of course, we havent even talked about posible nme´s interaction to all this.

 

This is "realistic gameplay". Of course, the plane refueled and rearmed just too quickly compared to reality. Of course, the base is right there less than 8 kms away. OF course. But the gameplay ends up being a "REPRESENTATION" of a battlefield. And in the concept of representtion there are degrees and levels. This one is quite accurate compared to anything else seen in videogames (LEts not mention ARMA).

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

(LEts not mention ARMA).

 

 

 

ARMA >>> giphy.gif?cid=790b7611a84358c721ba748da0  ...Realistic Realism! Playable. After 20 mod installs...

 

 

 

Squad... Playable after One install. Realistic enough 4 me.

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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Nevermind guys im actually a big dumb idiot. Apparently we're all just waiting on a modder to add jets to the game, never mind the fact that we paid for them as a promised feature. " so even if we don't do it a modder will come along and make it happen."

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, hades said:

Nevermind guys im actually a big dumb idiot. Apparently we're all just waiting on a modder to add jets to the game, never mind the fact that we paid for them as a promised feature. " so even if we don't do it a modder will come along and make it happen."

 

THis is true....happily!...

 

4 hours ago, BatSithCrazy. said:

 

ARMA >>> giphy.gif?cid=790b7611a84358c721ba748da0  ...Realistic Realism! Playable. After 20 mod installs...

 

 

 

Squad... Playable after One install. Realistic enough 4 me.

Lol...this is also true.... I feel the same. 

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https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/sections/115001107133

 

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Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. Learn more

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The elephant in the room here related to fixed wing aircraft is say for example an A-10 was successfully integrated into the game. Cool. However, now you still need to consider how it would actually be implemented within the paradigm of the current gameplay. With the available Commander perks you only get a few A-10 strafing runs per match with cooldowns in between so within that concept how are you going to dovetail that with piloting an aircraft?

 

So yeah, do you honestly believe you're going to get just get to fly around the entire match in an A-10 strafing targets with impunity with your cooldown being landing and reloading for 1/2 hour?

 

Nevermind the fact that nobody has even spoken a single word about balance either. I mean what's the counter to an A-10?

 

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21 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Nevermind the fact that nobody has even spoken a single word about balance either. I mean what's the counter to an A-10?

Other jets (su25), manpads, aa emplacements and of course air to air armed helicopters.

 

21 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

So yeah, do you honestly believe you're going to get just get to fly around the entire match in an A-10 strafing targets with impunity with your cooldown being landing and reloading for 1/2 hour?

Because that's exactly how it works in PR right?

Edited by hades

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19 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

The elephant in the room here related to fixed wing aircraft is say for example an A-10 was successfully integrated into the game. Cool. However, now you still need to consider how it would actually be implemented within the paradigm of the current gameplay. With the available Commander perks you only get a few A-10 strafing runs per match with cooldowns in between so within that concept how are you going to dovetail that with piloting an aircraft?

 

So yeah, do you honestly believe you're going to get just get to fly around the entire match in an A-10 strafing targets with impunity with your cooldown being landing and reloading for 1/2 hour?

 

Nevermind the fact that nobody has even spoken a single word about balance either. I mean what's the counter to an A-10?

 

We Will climb that mountain when we get there. Balance is not really that difficult anyway. Ammo loadout and fuel amount combined with reloading/refueling times is a Good starting point. The rest is experimenting. 

 

On the other hand, countermeasures would be, another jet and AA; handheld and SAM emplacements (maybe another thing to build).

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Keep this on topic and civil or this thread is getting locked and warnings handed out.

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5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

We Will climb that mountain when we get there. Balance is not really that difficult anyway. Ammo loadout and fuel amount combined with reloading/refueling times is a Good starting point. The rest is experimenting. 

 

On the other hand, countermeasures would be, another jet and AA; handheld and SAM emplacements (maybe another thing to build).

idk. Sounds boring to me in comparison to even the first few versions of Squad that hit Steam. At least those first version had an organic and tactile feel to them. Now it just seems like a race to cram as many toys and gadgets into the game whereupon strategy & tactics are simply an afterthought. Quoting my friend he said the game has become nothing more than TDM with side quests.

 

The biggest overall problem I still see in the game to this day is it's nowhere near being as punishing and unforgiving like it was in the beginning. There is basically no personal penalty for dying or losing assets now... shampoo, rinse & repeat. Lose a chopper, no biggie its just 5 tickies and another will spawn in a few minutes anyway. Through no fault of its own the game has pretty much evolved into another arcade Joint Operations with tickets.

 

That's all fine and dandy but don't fool yourself into thinking that forcing some ersatz jets into an 8 square kilometer square map and then adding a bunch more junk to balance it out are going to somehow increase the depth of the gameplay.

 

 

 

 

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One side of the argument: “All I wanted was Project Reality, with improved Graphics and Sound. Is that so much to ask for!? All you had to do was to make it shiny, Just... keep the jets and everything ales that worked in PR!“

 

The other side of the argument: 

 

 

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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3 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

idk. Sounds boring to me in comparison to even the first few versions of Squad that hit Steam. At least those first version had an organic and tactile feel to them. Now it just seems like a race to cram as many toys and gadgets into the game whereupon strategy & tactics are simply an afterthought. Quoting my friend he said the game has become nothing more than TDM with side quests.

 

The biggest overall problem I still see in the game to this day is it's nowhere near being as punishing and unforgiving like it was in the beginning. There is basically no personal penalty for dying or losing assets now... shampoo, rinse & repeat. Lose a chopper, no biggie its just 5 tickies and another will spawn in a few minutes anyway. Through no fault of its own the game has pretty much evolved into another arcade Joint Operations with tickets.

 

That's all fine and dandy but don't fool yourself into thinking that forcing some ersatz jets into an 8 square kilometer square map and then adding a bunch more junk to balance it out are going to somehow increase the depth of the gameplay.

 

I agree with you 100%. The reason I want jets implemented and the game to keep developing cool thing is because sooner or later there will be modns, and sooner or later a part of the community that doesnt like this TDM with sidequests will start delving into those more realistic mods. 

 

As you know I hadnt played since v13. Since buddy rally was implemented. Laste weekend when it was removed I went back to the game. I liked it much more. I enjoyed it,...still I played 3 rounds and then switched back to other games.

 

Why?... well, I have confirmed the VANILLA version of the game is not for me. With or without buddy rally. Of course, the game is better now, but not there. Reasons.... In this time I´ve come up with 3, two of which are cause for the third one.

 

Reason number 1: rallies are permanent. This creates a kind of try and repeat kind of tactics....which is basically the opposite of tactics in the battlefield. Tactics are suposed to inculde a plan for when things go wrong, a escape route. That is not needed. So this makes people develop a suicidal do or die meta.

 

Reason number 2: There are no valuable kits in the game. Being a hat allows you to go chasing nme vehicles every time you spawn. The most effective hat players I have seen are those who are part of a squad only to get the kit and use their rally. Then, the are never around their SL. They doo their thing and its quite effective. Hiding only one guy from enemy eyes and getting close to that noisy enemy tank. If he diez...no problem...he can spawn again with the same kit (and on that permanent rally) and try again. Sooner or later he will get the tank. He can die 10 times trying it and still get it at the 1th and be productive.

 

Reason number 3: Consequence of the other two I see is the lenght of the rounds. A 40 minute round is too short. Rounds in PR used to be 1 hour long MINIMUM. 2 hours 20 was the longest round I ever played and I think I died like 5 times. Compare that to SQUAD. PRoblem that is it´s hard to suggest that to the consumers nowadyas. BEyond the excuse of "I dont have time for this", as you said, people want shinny and fast and more important...they already want the NEXT thing.

 

So Bottom line and as I said before. Im into JETS not for the vanilla. I couldnt care less if they implement ir propperly and in a balanced way. I want flybable jets so we cans ee them in mods like ONE LIFE EVENTS and the kind.

 

 

 

 

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I'd much rather we didn't get jets added into the game as playable assets. It just makes much more sense in the scale of the game that the arty and airstrikes are off map assets. I've got a pretty good feeling that they wouldn't really even fit into the maps that we have even if you stick to slower aircraft like A10s, SU25s and Harriers. Then as soon as you add it in how do you balance the ordinance? Are they able to go back to base every time you ripple off a handful of GBU-32s? Is there a super long wait time to rearm? Does the pilot just AFK for 10 minutes? Maybe if there is a long rearm time the pilot will be more conservative with their munitions, but how well will this work when the guy that claimed the jet first is a dude that played with the test range for 15 minutes and figured he would jump into a game? More trouble than it is worth.

 

The same applies with attack helicopters. Doesn't have the space limitations that the jets have due to flight speed but how do you keep them from overwhelming the enemy vehicles. You throw in a AH-64 with 8 hellfires or a Mi24 with 8 kolkons you can say goodbye to every vehicle in the match fairly quickly. Even with infantry manpads I wouldn't be too sure that it would work. A scout helicopter like a Kiowa might work but what equivalent do the Russians have?

 

This is one of those additions that falls more towards being cool than really being a good addition to the game. I'd hope that this game doesn't stray far from infantry combat

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30 minutes ago, Geebus said:

I'd much rather we didn't get jets added into the game as playable assets. It just makes much more sense in the scale of the game that the arty and airstrikes are off map assets. I've got a pretty good feeling that they wouldn't really even fit into the maps that we have even if you stick to slower aircraft like A10s, SU25s and Harriers. Then as soon as you add it in how do you balance the ordinance? Are they able to go back to base every time you ripple off a handful of GBU-32s? Is there a super long wait time to rearm? Does the pilot just AFK for 10 minutes? Maybe if there is a long rearm time the pilot will be more conservative with their munitions, but how well will this work when the guy that claimed the jet first is a dude that played with the test range for 15 minutes and figured he would jump into a game? More trouble than it is worth.

 

The same applies with attack helicopters. Doesn't have the space limitations that the jets have due to flight speed but how do you keep them from overwhelming the enemy vehicles. You throw in a AH-64 with 8 hellfires or a Mi24 with 8 kolkons you can say goodbye to every vehicle in the match fairly quickly. Even with infantry manpads I wouldn't be too sure that it would work. A scout helicopter like a Kiowa might work but what equivalent do the Russians have?

 

This is one of those additions that falls more towards being cool than really being a good addition to the game. I'd hope that this game doesn't stray far from infantry combat

Geebus Have you played Project Reality !?

Edited by BatSithCrazy.

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