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After playing around with the new helicopters, I've thought of some suggestions that could be applied to both the current conventional forces and the irregulars. The suggestions come from numerous play time in Squad from Kickstarter till now, PR, Battlefield and Rising storm.

 

Situation

Firstly, I understand why the game play choices were made during the development of Squad when vehicles were still in development, however now with the faster transport for larger maps and factions having equal balance in conventional force roster, I think that permanent rallies should be removed.

 

Having rallies as a consistent spawn point takes away from the ebb and flow of combat, with no real defence, attack, silence and more of a run gun element without much silence, no real transport and less squad to squad game play. I spent a whole game as a helicopter pilot ferrying supplies (which is totally fine, it's what you do!) but not once as a transport after the initial rush, once squads placed their rallies, they were mobile from that point as it was a home brewed spawn. The issue with this is the fast paced flanking, where you eliminate a defence or counter attack but instead of having a rest, recoup and combat flow you become bogged down in a wave style attack, the same can be said for FOB's except their rearms from logistics, their large nature makes them easier to find. Feedback from taking a FOB also has that heroics game play that feels rewarding, I rarely know I've destroyed a Rally and often can keep looking for a while longer. 

 

Front lines exist less and more of an on point swivel even when large engagements are underway, which makes sense, but the ability to give up, spawn and run in from a different angle with such speed (even if it does take a minute+) is very different to the more tactical approach and slower movement. Since helicopters and now armoured transport is a thing, removing rallies persistence would better enforce team play and a slower style of game play, or at least force squads to work more with each other, compared to currently infantry and infantry, with heavier assets doing their thing. 

 

Who should get permanent rallies?

Irregular forces are out gunned, out... well everything right? But that works for their play style. They are nimble, swarm and disappear style of game play. Previously this has been done in games by including tunnels within the map, however as players recognise and learn from playing each side, the Blufor forces know the tunnel entrances and choke points of the Opfor through months of play. This completely erodes the intention of playing as a foreign inva... peace bringer with less knowledge of the land. Battlefield Vietnam did a really cool concept to defeat this, they allowed the Opfor to 'place' tunnels with a kit, essentially these were mobile spawn points. Since this fits their style without giving a predictability, allowing Militia and Insurgents to utilise the permanent rally feature would be a neat way to keep them buffed (future conditions through testing could be applied, such as needing to rearm to place another one, akin to the ammo bag style of the riflemen) 

 

Conclusion

I understand this approach to conventional forces would slow down their game play and potentially make it easier to steam role pub games, however like similar games with a dedicated player base, the general knowledge does get learn't over time and then from there, the base of standard is built. I do miss the times we would spend in game with a slow approach, chatting shit on a defence flag getting to know my squad before all hell broke loose, having to survive in a chaotic situation and then if you made it through, dumping a rally for those who couldn't be revived and then chatting, planning and having the silence to think and also actually become a bit nervous. Was it a Fob? Should we advance and try to get more info? Was it a Rally?? 

 

Or those amazing moments of flying in mid game in a chopper as transport, landing as the Canadian faction in the forest under smokes to get out, reinforce an already doomed squad in a desperate front approach, somehow pulling through and then, just then, a short rally dropped, then silence ensued for the next 5 minutes. As we tried to plan out the next move. Right now, you just keep running and it rarely goes without a gunshot.  The trailer now states on the Steam page that it's combined arms with use of transport but that's not really the case after the first 10 minutes of setup...

 

Thoughts please?

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10 hours ago, SoulShaper2 said:

Situation

Firstly, I understand why the game play choices were made during the development of Squad when vehicles were still in development, however now with the faster transport for larger maps and factions having equal balance in conventional force roster, I think that permanent rallies should be removed.

Yes!, Yes!, Yes! 

 

Meg Ryan "When Harry met Sally" kind of "YES"

 

 

10 hours ago, SoulShaper2 said:

Who should get permanent rallies?

Irregular forces are out gunned, out... well everything right? But that works for their play style. They are nimble, swarm and disappear style of game play. 

Not so sure. Maybe some different rally mechanic, but not so sure about permanent.

 

Still, al your ideas are better than we have now.

 

Well laid arguments too.

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11 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Not so sure. Maybe some different rally mechanic, but not so sure about permanent.

 

Still, al your ideas are better than we have now.

 

Firstly thank you all for the comments and discussion, even when certain ideas aren't to your taste. 

 

I think maybe a change to the rally system, how to go about that I'm unsure. But some thoughts:

 

Timer

We could add a timer to the deployment of the rally for Irregular forces, this would make it loss mobile in placement with reduced flexibility depending on the time restriction while allowing it to be the same mechanics as the current rally. Giving them the swap style approach with the ability of multiple flanking attacks, aiding to their style. However the timer is very meta, potentially a good starting point to test this game play feature and see how the players work with it. Judging by the current play style, it could be a tad too chaotic and unfair for a public game against the conventional forces, since a well planned assault with smoke mortars, commander UAV and arty can still be thwarted by biker boi's to place rallies.

 

Ammo Consumption

Okay so having the rally be place able (much like the ammo bags) could be a way to give them the creative freedom to place a rally  whenever they like, however by making it require say, 300 ammo? They wouldn't be able to rearm from a riflemen. This makes sure a riflemen ammo is going towards the correct and intended game play for them to stock the rockets and medics instead of becoming a right hand man for the Squad lead. Also, 300 ammo would burn up supplies from FoB's and thus make sure the game still has a some sort of balance since now while they can swarm, they might be low on ammo, bandages, smokes. So while they can fight from anywhere, as a choice it will make them under equipped unless they have a suitable Logistics line going.

 

Separate Item

Perhaps something akin to the Combat engineers mines? A sapper as such could place down a tunnel entrance? This could allow the rally to disappear at the same time of the conventional force timer but still give flexibility with moving around the map, encouraging the swarm mentality. Kit limitations could be given for balance much like the HATs to ensure not too many potential spawns are given. This could still give too many spawns to the irregulars and make the problem worse but at least it's something to consider.

 

Thoughts guys?

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sort of agree with it but also not i mean what if a team gets early game spawntrapped , they cant out of a spawn but 1 sl with squadmember get out of the spawntrapped situation by a miracle and they pretty much useless if they cant drop of a rally because they cant capture because 3 man required to neutrolize a point and cant do much against heavy vehicle exept for calling in a warhog on tanks so in this case it would be nice to be able to throw down a rally and besides that its easy to burn those things because you have to be within range of 30 meters or so

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On 06/01/2020 at 9:58 AM, DarrenGaming said:

sort of agree with it but also not i mean what if a team gets early game spawntrapped , they cant out of a spawn but 1 sl with squadmember get out of the spawntrapped situation by a miracle and they pretty much useless if they cant drop of a rally because they cant capture because 3 man required to neutrolize a point and cant do much against heavy vehicle exept for calling in a warhog on tanks so in this case it would be nice to be able to throw down a rally and besides that its easy to burn those things because you have to be within range of 30 meters or so

Ah, I'm not saying the rally doesn't exist, as those spawn trap situations do exist, or just after an incredible assault/defence. A rally can be placed like normal but the difference is that the are not permanent in their staying power. After say 60 seconds it goes and a timer must expire to place another. 

 

30m is an issue when engaging and flanking on larger maps, they can place a rally in the mountains and it will effectively serve as a HAB for the duration of the flag assault. Too far for an effective search but good enough to launch a persistent assault from.

 

So yeah, don't get rid of rallies, but more of a short term spawn than a consistent emplacement.  

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On 24.12.2019 at 9:11 AM, Guan_Yu007 said:

I pretty much agree here, but i doubt most players would..

Had the same though, even if we like such ideas.

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I agree that for a game that has pretensions to realism (or at least avoiding run and gun play style) that rallies are self defeating.  Every objective assault becomes a game about placing and maintaining rallies, and using them to keep the objective awash in a flood of troops, rather than military-style assaults.  It matters more which side gets lucky and burns the opposing team's rally than it does about skill and effectiveness, or teamwork.  And I almost never see mortars being used any more, and artillery pretty rarely.  I would be comfortable getting rid of rallies and just having HABs, frankly, but I know why the devs think they need rallies- to attract the attention deficited youth who are players nowadays.  And I don't have a solution for that.

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Just get rid of the rallies already. They're a hindrance to using vehicles and FOBs as intended. I want to see less fire and more manoeuvre. More time to recover from an assault. More time to plan a better attack. More Country Roads and Flight of the Valkyries out of Main! More ambushes. More hot drops and evacs. 

 

If anyone here watches StarCraft, what we have now is basically Wings of Liberty PvP warpgate meta. You can both teleport units into your enemy's base so early the game just becomes a constant battle on two fronts, your base and theirs, until one or the other is overrun. It was lame in SC2 and Blizzard nerfed warpgates into an early mid-game tech. Now there's much more depth to the match-up, with plenty of tech and strategy options to deal with a warpgate rush. I'd like to see that happen in Squad. Take out the easy teleportation and I think you're left with a much better experience. Besides, we should be playing TvT anyway.

Edited by pinko

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All of these rally suggestions have come up on the forums over the last few years and I still think a few of them are good.

 

Back in the day we had a 9 spawn limit on the rally, which just meant an effective squad would keep an eye on it and then let the SL and a squad mate take the last spawns and create a new rally. So the rally was practically infinite unless someone ****ed up. So while it definitely needed a change from that.

 

A timer is the most elegant solution. Giving a life timer of say three minutes, with a cooldown timer of six minutes would dramatically change the way rallies are used. You would need to be more coordinated about placement at the very least. The only worry is that an SL then goes back to being the rally bitch, and not doing much else.

 

The ammo consumption is a great way of stopping the SL just becoming the rally nanny but you would still need the 1-2 additional players with the SL to place to stop lone wolf SLs from running around placing a rally, grabbing ammo from a FOB and repeating while the squad is off fighting.

 

The sapper built separate item is a cool idea for the irregulars. Make it big so it's not easy to hide and have a long spawn timer like a wave every five minutes so it isn't pissing out troops and it would complement the irregular play style quite well.

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On 11/01/2020 at 1:36 AM, DualFlameBane said:

I agree that for a game that has pretensions to realism (or at least avoiding run and gun play style) that rallies are self defeating.  Every objective assault becomes a game about placing and maintaining rallies, and using them to keep the objective awash in a flood of troops, rather than military-style assaults.  It matters more which side gets lucky and burns the opposing team's rally than it does about skill and effectiveness, or teamwork.  And I almost never see mortars being used any more, and artillery pretty rarely.  I would be comfortable getting rid of rallies and just having HABs, frankly, but I know why the devs think they need rallies- to attract the attention deficited youth who are players nowadays.  And I don't have a solution for that.

apart from the stiketrough because i can't comment on those, i agree pretty much 100%.

 

RP's: i gather they are endless teleporters now?  ... oh dear.....

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On 14/01/2020 at 4:49 AM, Stom said:

Back in the day we had a 9 spawn limit on the rally, which just meant an effective squad would keep an eye on it and then let the SL and a squad mate take the last spawns and create a new rally. 

 

Yeah I remember those days pretty hard, you became a rally nanny and the meta peer pressured you to disengage and always run back. 

 

I agree, a timer is the most elegant, it still takes meta but I am here for teamwork and pacing, not Arma style realism (which is fine and dandy when I want that, I am not bashing arma). A timer removes the pressure from the Squad lead, it becomes a hard fact of 'this is our rally, it's gone in 60, wait 3 minutes' and you can't pressure the timer down or try to nanny it.

 

The ammo consumption I fear will take away the ammo bearing for LAT's and other required roles, I've played games when designated ammo bearers don't know they can drop ammo, or they want another kit and change. holding back ammo from LAT's and other kits so the SL can have the rally placement will still have the potential of making it a rally nanny situation. 

 

I'm not saying it can't work though and I think all suggestions should be considered, I just am strongly in favour of a none permanent rally that does not give squad members the ability to dictate the SL should focus more on rally up keep as part of his duty. 

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On 13/01/2020 at 11:09 PM, pinko said:

Just get rid of the rallies already. They're a hindrance to using vehicles and FOBs as intended. I want to see less fire and more manoeuvre. More time to recover from an assault. More time to plan a better attack. More Country Roads and Flight of the Valkyries out of Main! More ambushes. More hot drops and evacs. 

 

I agree it's very little manoeuvre right now, I think we have a lot of cool kits, we have HMG's, LMG's, bipods, transports, engineers can drop sandbags. All of these slow time game mechanics, but in the end even when it was a conventional fight the best option was to let a lone wolf sneak to the enemy radio and blow it up. 

 

The game has given us many cool tools for slow paced gameplay, but even if I deploy a bipod I'm more likely to get shot then have a positive from it. I'm not sure how to change much of this, and this is all topic for another discussion as I have some ideas. But I think firstly starting with Rallies to try and encourage more front line and manoeuvre compared to the current meta is a good start. 

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