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giammotto

SQUAD could be amazing, but it lacks care

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Hello guys I'm a new player and I've been playing SQUAD in the last week or so, I have a lot of praise for some aspects of the game, but there are some things which ruin it for me and I don't know if I will continue playing, but for the sake of feedback and helping the developers create a better game I will at least write this:

 

I know it's an alpha, but some things are inexcusable, like the inability to shoot from 50% of the windows in the game. I mean, this alone shows such a lack of care that it's baffling and makes me want to quit. You have an enemy right in front of you yet you can't shoot him because your bullets come out of the barrel, and your soldier is incapable of raising the gun a few centimetres. You create a new building and you don't even check if you can shoot through the windows? are you serious?

 

Clipping through buildings has now officially become a game mechanic, maybe instead of adding maps and helicopters you should achieve the basics of an FPS,, and from what I read it's been like 4 years and this hasn't been fixed.. again, it's lack of care in my opinion. You can add all you want to this game, until you fix the basic stuff players will keep leaving.

 

Inability to lean progressively and generally bad movement and animations, In real life, an operator can reload an AK in less than a second, but the tactical masturbation doesn't allow us that so we must make all animations unnecessarily slow and sluggish like the soldiers in the game are slightly retarded. When will developers understand that realism cannot be achieved like this? if you need to get your pistol FAST to save your life, and you see your soldier without any stress slowly put the rifle away and.. bam you're already dead. IRL he wouldn't put the rifle away, he would just take the pistol out and shoot. It's frustrating and destroys the immersion. Same with grenades.. you lose 5 seconds watching your soldier hold the grenade in his hand and do very slow moves when the grenade should be such a quick thing.. 

 

The inability to fix your gun in any way and achieve a well aimed shot is also very annoying, the exact opposite of realistic, it makes shooting far targets a game of luck and memorizing the muzzle sway. Also, has the soldier got Parkinson? (no offense to who suffers from it) he's completely incapable of holding his gun straight even at 10 meters, just very strange and not realistic at all, he is also incapable of holding his breath. The shooting in this game is probably the best out of every single FPS on the market, yet the lack of care makes it a very frustrating experience to deal with, and not as good as it should be, given the quality of sounds and animations.

 

Rallies are completely against the "realism" that you want to achieve, mainly because of the magic spawning of enemies and second because it is a supernatural source of intel on enemy positions, some leaders put the rally in an FOB just to see if there are enemies nearby. If you want realism, do it, this middle road is very inconclusive and frustrates everyone. 

 

Customization: I don't understand why most tactical games are so strict regarding gun customization, it actually goes against the real world because for all I know soldiers are free to customize their guns (to a certain extent) and make them as comfortable as possible. Yet in this game there are classes that don't even have an optic, and if there are too many optics in the team you can't use it, what is this garbage? it's just limiting and annoying, not at all realistic or "tactical", again, tactical masturbation in my opinion and nothing more. I don't want 650 gun attachments, but the ability to freely use grips, preferred optics, and maybe muzzle attachments would be nice, very basic stuff. I understand that you don't want to promote shooting in some classes, but taking away their firing capability altogether just seems limiting and stupid to me, but everyone can disagree

 

Last one, the maps are abysmal, sorry for the bluntness but it's true. They're the most boring and mundane maps I've ever seen, and it's not the terrain nor the fact that they are very large, it's because they're so lacking in love and care that it hurts. I'm sick of seeing the same tree copy and pasted everywhere, bad textures, completely empty houses and enviroments, houses that wouldn't even exist in real life (one house makes me laugh everytime, just one big room with 9 windows unevenly spread on all sides, wtf is even that?? who designed it??) 

 

In conclusion, SQUAD is on par with a lot of horrible early access games that get cancelled, but the developers got lucky with the fanbase and they are still supported by a lot of people, but I feel as though they're not better than many other indie developers. Lacking in care and quality and seemingly unable (after YEARS) to fix incredibly basic stuff, but at the same time very competent and capable in some other areas, enough to keep the game going and give a semblance of progress and making the game better. After a couple matches, you start to see how shallow and empty this game would be without it's amazing community, and it's a pain beause this game could be so much more. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, giammotto said:

Last one, the maps are abysmal, sorry for the bluntness but it's true. They're the most boring and mundane maps I've ever seen, and it's not the terrain nor the fact that they are very large, it's because they're so lacking in love and care that it hurts.

I would politely disagree. Every map in Squad is amazing in its own way. Some are more distinctive than others and some have more character than others but I think overall a lot of creative talent went into them so this criticism is a bit harsh in my opinion. Could they be improved? Certainly. However, at this point they all suffice within the context of the actual gameplay which brings me to the next point you make that I have a major problem with.

1 hour ago, giammotto said:

 

After a couple matches, you start to see how shallow and empty this game would be without it's amazing community, and it's a pain beause this game could be so much more. 

 

 

 

 

After only a couple of matches I think you've utterly missed what I feel is the ultimate strength of the game which is the fact that the game is programmed to necessitate that 40 random people form a cohesive unit and work together and communicate in order to win a match.

 

That said, it's very easy for people like you to hate Squad. At this point it's sold well over a million copies yet has never really had a stable concurrent population over 5000 across it's entire timeline.

 

 

Needless to say, as you pointed out in great detail its lacking on many elements that are considered normal within the fps genre however in your comparison/contrast you failed to recognize the features that make Squad completely unique over every other game in the genre.

 

Those main attributes are teamwork, communication, strategies, tactics and situational awareness. No other game in the fps genre besides Enemy Territory: Quake Wars has even came close to this "thinking man's" gameplay.

 

So yeah, Squad looks like trash compared to my shiny new copy of Calla Dooty with its ray tracing goodness highlighting the dust bunnies in the dappled sunlight shining through the opaque window but saying its shallow just shows your ignorance.

 

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21 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

 

After only a couple of matches I think you've utterly missed what I feel is the ultimate strength of the game which is the fact that the game is programmed to necessitate that 40 random people form a cohesive unit and work together and communicate in order to win a match.

You're getting me wrong if you say this, because this is exactly what drew me to the game and what made me spend my money, I  watched hours worth of content on youtube and I thought that it looked damn interesting and fun, and requiring a lot of effort and cooperation to enjoy properly, and I'm exactly this kind of player and I noticed I can have better teamwork than 90% of other players and even bring a squad together when it is breaking apart (which happens always but it's not the fault of the developers, just stupid players) so don't think I'm some kind of COD fanboy who is just here to hate on the game, it's the opposite (and also the maps are good in layout and maybe colors, but everything is so low detail and so featureless that it becomes an eyesore to play after a while)

 

In fact I am writing this (and I hope the developers read) because I'm disappointed and I see a lot of similarity with scummy indie developers, who maybe even add content and "release" the game but it's always a mediocre experience that only changes in stability, graphics and a bit of content when it gets out of alpha. Squad still needs a lot of fundamental work in the absolute basics of an FPS and it's base quality, which is still very low. It's clunky, it's all the stuff I wrote before and more which will come to mind to everyone who plays it. The cooperation factor can mask this for some people, but  there could be three times as many players just waiting for the game to become more enjoyable, and polished. But all I see is trying to add content, as if all the basics are already done when they are not..until then I will not suggest Squad to anyone, because I see a lack of care in it..

Edited by giammotto

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5 hours ago, giammotto said:

like the inability to shoot from 50% of the windows in the game

agree. should be fixed and new windows set to a standard that matches the average barrel height (at ADS) - for QoL if nothing else.

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

Clipping through buildings

i've played games from the biggest dev houses and still can have the random glitching/falling/etc through polygons/terrain.

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

In real life, an operator can reload an AK in less than a second, but the tactical masturba........

wow, really? less than a second?

the rest of that paragraph appears to confirm your need for CoD-esque fast-paced tacticool shooterz type game.

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

The inability to fix your gun in any way and achieve a well aimed shot

did they change something at last update because from what i've seen if you have full stam and full breath, the guns appear rock-solid at ADS when Focused.

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

Rallies are completely against the "realism" that you want to achiev

totally agree.

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

Customization:

.. actually goes against the real world because for all I know soldiers are free to customize their guns ..

.. taking away their firing capability altogether ..

so you're guessing to start with, then assert that lack of customisation removes the ability to capably fire a weapon ...

5 hours ago, giammotto said:

Last one, the maps are abysmal, sorry for the bluntness but it's true.

some look not-as-pretty as some others but they are also the early maps (that could do with a spruce-up). some of the newer maps are amazing.

2 hours ago, giammotto said:

(and also the maps are good in layout and maybe colors, but everything is so low detail and so featureless that it becomes an eyesore to play after a while)

?! ...but, my previous quote, of you, above this one.

 

from some of what you have OP'd it seems that you don't really have any idea about exactly what is involved and the amount of work required to produce even a relatively simple map, or asset (eg: house). you also appear to not understand that filling the maps with many thousands more assets at least, to fill out buildings and areas with realistic stuffs to imershunz, will cripple the game (talked about adnauseum already).

you have also come across rather harsh and disrespectful, unfortunately. i'm actually not a "fanboi" of Squad but i do back it and highly respect the effort so far - i just want a decent FPS game that requires some thought; show me any other title (present/future) that does this. and i can mod Squad as well.

how about some examples of what you feel Squad should be, for comparison - you know, other games IRL that do what you want.

 

 

 

Edited by LaughingJack

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-1 or just implement a very basic fixing feature that works similarly to the bipod but is much faster and mobile

-2 actually I have yet to glitch through the terrain so far, I'm talking about feet and guns sticking from the walls of buildings, something so basic it should have been fixed at the start of the game

-3 in optimal conditions and optimal training I've seen videos where they reload from empty in 1,3 or something, point being that the 4-5 seconds required in game are a very calm and relaxed reload, and often it is out of sync with what is going on around you. also, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm a cod fanboy

-4 with focus it moves just a little but with any scope and no bipod it shakes constantly and I would understand this if you could fix your gun, but given that you can't..

-5 -

-6 here maybe I went off a little and of course I didn't mean it literally, meaning that in this game you're often thrown into very difficult situations without an optic and I don't see a good reason for it

-7 let me elaborate on the maps, I think they are laid out well (even though are mostly very generic terrain) and have good roads and seem plausible, I'm referring to how boring and lifeless the game looks, it's all too generic and I really find it boring to look at, in the moments when I don't cooperate with my team and I'm just in the gameworld, it looks so uninteresting and barebones. I know a good deal about how a game is produced and how more objects and complexity have multiple impacts that have to be considered, but if you put it like this than you're simply justifying incompetence, as many games achieve a very good level of open world pleasant maps (still realistic and simple) but full of details and even interactability (destruction, mechanisms that can be manipulated etc,) and also exceptional performance compared to this (which is also a badly optimized game, looks average and is twice as demanding as much more beautiful games)

I don't ask that much, but I think such a realistic game should have more realistic enviroments and not be so barebones like it is at the moment, it would benefit greatly in terms of immersion

 

I'm not at all disrespectful, but disappointed and not so convinced by a game I purchased and I just wanted to share my opinion, which may also explain why this game is losing players and cannot achieve a stable high playberase, maybe think a bit outside the bubble, this is not a remote opinion.. you think only 5000 players are interested in Squad? there could be so many more that are turned down by things that you simply justify instead of address, and so they never even buy the game, like me for years. didn't mean any disrespect if you felt any, but even if it was the case I don't like this kind of approach to games, it leads to sub-par games that lose focus over time.. and to also respond to your question, I think there is nothing like squad at the moment (apart from PR) all the rest has some of its qualities but too much different stuff (insurgency old and new, battlefield, rainbow six, I have some hope for ready or not) so I really can't answer your question

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On 11/6/2019 at 2:42 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

So yeah, Squad looks like trash compared to my shiny new copy of Calla Dooty with its ray tracing goodness highlighting the dust bunnies in the dappled sunlight shining through the opaque window but saying its shallow just shows your ignorance.

 

This made me laugh

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On 11/6/2019 at 12:17 PM, giammotto said:
 
 
On 11/6/2019 at 12:17 PM, giammotto said:

In real life, an operator can reload an AK in less than a second,

I highly,

 

no, I know for a fact this isn't true. 

Edited by Nossa

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Firing on a range in a sweatshirt dropping mags on the ground and firing in full kit while in combat are different things.

"like the inability to shoot from 50% of the windows in the game."

Agree

"Clipping through buildings"

Agree

"Inability to lean progressively and generally bad movement and animations, In real life, an operator can reload an AK in less than a second, but the tactical masturbation doesn't allow us that so we must make all animations unnecessarily slow and sluggish like the soldiers in the game are slightly retarded. When will developers understand that realism cannot be achieved like this? if you need to get your pistol FAST to save your life, and you see your soldier without any stress slowly put the rifle away and.. bam you're already dead. IRL he wouldn't put the rifle away, he would just take the pistol out and shoot. It's frustrating and destroys the immersion. Same with grenades.. you lose 5 seconds watching your soldier hold the grenade in his hand and do very slow moves when the grenade should be such a quick thing.. "

 

    Im sure you can find speed runs or some Elite guys doing mag changes very fast, but its the same as that video above - Running around in full kit and having to do Mag changes isn't going to take 1.88 seconds for every average soldier. Squad reloading feels fine and using the fastest times to represent average soldiers in combat conditions would make it into like so many other twitch shooters. There's so much more that has to happen that squad cant simulate. Did your Vest move to a slightly different position that would slow you down? Are empty mags getting put away or not? Do you slow down reloading after sprinting across a field? Are you in an awkward position? Is your issued holster falling down your leg?  The same thing with Grenades - If I'm standing with a grenade in my hand ready to go  you can get a good throw off in 2-3 seconds, but your not doing that in the squad - IRL your trying to get it out of a pouch first and then getting your grip and removing the safety clip-Squad feels about right.

 

"Rallies are completely against the "realism" that you want to achieve, mainly because of the magic spawning of enemies and second because it is a supernatural source of intel on enemy positions, some leaders put the rally in an FOB just to see if there are enemies nearby. If you want realism, do it, this middle road is very inconclusive and frustrates everyone"

 

Agree

 

"Customization: I don't understand why most tactical games are so strict regarding gun customization, it actually goes against the real world because for all I know soldiers are free to customize their guns (to a certain extent) and make them as comfortable as possible. Yet in this game there are classes that don't even have an optic, and if there are too many optics in the team you can't use it, what is this garbage? it's just limiting and annoying, not at all realistic or "tactical", again, tactical masturbation in my opinion and nothing more. I don't want 650 gun attachments, but the ability to freely use grips, preferred optics, and maybe muzzle attachments would be nice, very basic stuff. I understand that you don't want to promote shooting in some classes, but taking away their firing capability altogether just seems limiting and stupid to me, but everyone can disagree"

 

Squad represents your average soldiers - I don't see any guys walking around with suppressors because they feel like it. The most customization I've seen on average is getting to pick where your PEC is and if you want a forward grip or not. For the most part, the weapon you get is what you get.  Squad already gives you options on the type of sights if it's not limited, and I'm not sure what gameplay changes would really be made by allowing you to pick a grip.

Edited by Guardian
Formatting

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Squad should be the antithesis of Calla Dooty because certainly it fails miserably in an arcade type comparison. That said, logic would then dictate that every single element and system of Squad should be the complete opposite of that type of arcade shooter game and instead focus on the emulation of realistic gameplay.

 

Its my opinion that over the nearly three years of development its this hybrid "fence sitting" juxtaposition of both arcade & realistic attributes that have literally crippled the popularity of the game itself because those elements cancel each other out.

 

On one hand it's not arcade enough for the players coming from the CoD/BF communities and on the other hand its not realistic enough to satisfy the PR folks and others that are looking for an fps game with strategy and tactics.

 

Clearly Squad has evolved into a watered down TDM with side quests and will never grow its playership until it goes in a more realistic direction.

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On 11/6/2019 at 12:17 PM, giammotto said:

I know it's an alpha, but some things are inexcusable, like the inability to shoot from 50% of the windows in the game. I mean, this alone shows such a lack of care that it's baffling and makes me want to quit. You have an enemy right in front of you yet you can't shoot him because your bullets come out of the barrel, and your soldier is incapable of raising the gun a few centimetres. You create a new building and you don't even check if you can shoot through the windows? are you serious?

I have noticed this too, and progressive leaning (which giammotto covers later in the post) would be a great concept to have in order to peak corners and over windowsills enough to engage the enemy while presenting yourself as small a target for them as possible.

Quote

In real life, an operator can reload an AK in less than a second

No, no they can't... professionals can definitely reload very quickly, notless than a second.  2.5 is about as fast as I could believe, but you have to consider that you have to realize "I'm out", get the magazine out of the pouch that you have to keep it from falling out on the move, clear the empty magazine, insert the new one, and charge the weapon.  This is not a "Less than a second" operation.  For someone to be able to do that is inhumanly fast, even if you drill it.

Quote

if you need to get your pistol FAST to save your life, and you see your soldier without any stress slowly put the rifle away and.. bam you're already dead. IRL he wouldn't put the rifle away, he would just take the pistol out and shoot. It's frustrating and destroys the immersion. Same with grenades.. you lose 5 seconds watching your soldier hold the grenade in his hand and do very slow moves when the grenade should be such a quick thing.. 

This I agree with, the movements show no true sense of urgency.  If I'm under fire and need my sidearm, I want that second weapon as fast as I can sling my primary over my shoulder and draw.

Quote

 

The inability to fix your gun in any way and achieve a well aimed shot is also very annoying, the exact opposite of realistic, it makes shooting far targets a game of luck and memorizing the muzzle sway. Also, has the soldier got Parkinson? (no offense to who suffers from it) he's completely incapable of holding his gun straight even at 10 meters, just very strange and not realistic at all, he is also incapable of holding his breath.

Hold Shift to stabilize your weapon by holding your breath for those tougher long range shots.

Quote

Rallies are completely against the "realism" that you want to achieve, mainly because of the magic spawning of enemies and second because it is a supernatural source of intel on enemy positions, some leaders put the rally in an FOB just to see if there are enemies nearby. If you want realism, do it, this middle road is very inconclusive and frustrates everyone. 

That's smart!  I can honestly say in the years that I've played on and off, I've never even considered that move!  That's pretty annoying.

 

Giammotto goes on for some time about this "Lack of care" put into the game, but I disagree with that entirely.  These developers have a tough job, bridging the gap between reality and gaming while still making it fun.  With all the battle royal and CoD style shooters where it's every man for himself, they have a game where only teamwork will truly prevail.  Yeah, there are a lot of flaws, but short of having experience or education in game development, who are we to tell them that they "Don't care"?

Edited by Clayton.Q[3SFG]

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On 07/11/2019 at 10:26 AM, giammotto said:

I'm talking about feet and guns sticking from the walls of buildings, something so basic it should have been fixed at the start of the game

ah, yeah, agree that it should be fixed - would be nice, considering it the bane of every other game on the planet. it has been discussed at least once, ages ago and i think in the end it was considered non-important because of the extra overhead required to achieve - was talk about an animation collision system that could handle walls etc and adjust stance/position to suit obstacles.

On 07/11/2019 at 10:26 AM, giammotto said:

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm a cod fanboy

i was'nt calling you a fanboi, i was inferring that wanting 1 second reloads is basically asking for that style of game (CoD, BF, wotever).

On 07/11/2019 at 10:26 AM, giammotto said:

let me elaborate on the maps, I think they are laid out well (even though are mostly very generic terrain) and have good roads and seem plausible, I'm referring to how boring and lifeless the game looks, it's all too generic and I really find it boring to look at, in the moments when I don't cooperate with my team and I'm just in the gameworld, it looks so uninteresting and barebones. I know a good deal about how a game is produced and how more objects and complexity have multiple impacts that have to be considered, but if you put it like this than you're simply justifying incompetence, as many games achieve a very good level of open world pleasant maps (still realistic and simple) but full of details and even interactability (destruction, mechanisms that can be manipulated etc,) and also exceptional performance compared to this (which is also a badly optimized game, looks average and is twice as demanding as much more beautiful games)

I don't ask that much, but I think such a realistic game should have more realistic enviroments and not be so barebones like it is at the moment, it would benefit greatly in terms of immersion

re bolded: name any other MP-FPS game with more than 4 sq.Km playable area and 30-40+(min.) players per team.

"I know a good deal about how a game is produced" - then you should understand that this game is yet to reach it's final (propper) optimisation process.

i would love to have Squad running infinte rendering of extreme definition texturing on billions of objects at real-time frame rates, but, you know how reality is a biatch, right?

your paragraph above prompts me to suggest you make a map in the SDK and find out what is actually involved.

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On 11/9/2019 at 11:53 AM, Clayton.Q[3SFG] said:

Giammotto goes on for some time about this "Lack of care" put into the game, but I disagree with that entirely.

Agreed. Compared to another sleazy indie studio in the same genre that are basically using their PC community as paying Quality Assurance staff for their upcoming console releases these guys are saints.

Quote

 These developers have a tough job, bridging the gap between reality and gaming while still making it fun.

"Fun" is a relative term though. This genre is already super saturated with several games that not only do the military arcade shooter "fun" paradigm way better but they also look much better because the levels are so much smaller. Plus the big studios have hundreds of people on the payroll to ensure that. Again, even more validation for the concept of doing something that nobody else is doing, which of course is simulating a more realistic experience.

 

Quote

With all the battle royal and CoD style shooters where it's every man for himself, they have a game where only teamwork will truly prevail.  Yeah, there are a lot of flaws, but short of having experience or education in game development, who are we to tell them that they "Don't care"?

Exactly. The strongest and most unique features of this game are the built-in framework of teamwork and communication and how they interact with strategies and tactics. Taking the focus away from a realistic simulation where intelligent decisions win matches and instead evolving it into Quake Team Arena with camo skins is ultimately a bad decision in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/9/2019 at 9:53 AM, Guardian said:

There's so much more that has to happen that squad cant simulate. Did your Vest move to a slightly different position that would slow you down? Are empty mags getting put away or not? Do you slow down reloading after sprinting across a field? Are you in an awkward position? Is your issued holster falling down your leg?  The same thing with Grenades - If I'm standing with a grenade in my hand ready to go  you can get a good throw off in 2-3 seconds, but your not doing that in the squad - IRL your trying to get it out of a pouch first and then getting your grip and removing the safety clip-Squad feels about right.

Why would it need to simulate that?

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