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I'm giving up on this game.

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16 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

It's quite obvious at this point that making a completely realistic PvP military themed fps isn't a viable or sustainable profit model. That said, maybe you and all the other PR founders can purchase the Offworld Core like the Post Scriptum folks did and then make your PR2 clone from scratch. 

Can you please READ THIS CAREFULLY. PR wasnt a "completely realistic military fps". I don´t want that kind of game. I probably wouldnt play  that kind of game. I DONT WANT A "COMPLETELY REALISTIC MILITARY FPS". 

 

There are degrees and all some people want is STOP MAKING IT ARCADE. Buddy rally is a VERY arcady mechanic. Low respawn timers is another one. Some others, like supply points on HABS is much more realistic than PR was in that aspect and I applaud that. 

 

So get it off your head. PR players dont advocate for ARMA kind of simulation. Those guys play ARMA and go nowhere near games like PR. 

 

It´s like you have a personal agenda with PR. Maybe if you had played it for more than 2 hours...and with other intention than to be able to write that "i´ve played PR" in the forums...

 

Somebody also told you already (many times)...

11 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

BTW, PR was never a realistic milsim, despite the name. PR devs sacrificed realism for mechanics that promoted team cohesion and cooperation all the time.

 

Maybe this time you will finally get it. I DON´T WANT A "COMPLETELY REALISTIC PVP MILITARY FPS"...

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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@Nightingale87

 

You're preaching to the choir. I'm in complete agreement with most of your points. No matter what you call your flavor of gameplay though I'm just telling you that slow, brutal, unforgiving and realistic gameplay isn't a viable or sustainable economic model especially when essentially a bunch of arcade clans are the front end of your game so you can disassociate yourself with the financial burden and liability risks of hosting it yourself.

 

By your own admission regarding the cherry picking of the Buddy Rally results in the recent polls you've already come to the conclusion that the inmates are essentially running the prison anyway so to speak. The arcade clans bear the financial burden of being the virtual storefront for the Squad "service" so essentially they get to decide the direction the games goes. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791

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I dont know, I can only make assumptions based on what I see, and hear, and I have literally visit almost every server, even those with a 500 ping to play, and most of the squad leaders, and players don't seem to give a rats butt, its rush B, and then I assume its the players because if they're not interested, and just want to take a logi place a bad hab and roleplay soldier action while running around like headless chickens thinking this is how they do in iraq, and afghanistan.

You don't have to roleplay the game to get realism, I have been in rare games where bombs were going off as we crossed the streets, buildings blew up, cars, ambushes, and all those things, and there were zero roleplay, it was just tactical real life gameplay from the enemy team, and our team, which forced us to be unable to COD, or counter strike it as the enemy squad leads actually had their men setup everywhere, tactically, and they end up winning, due to some people being unable to handle that pressure and just rushing and COD it, they never got anywhere and disconnected.

We actually had to clear each compound we found, or clear it using grenades or we would go into an ambush, think about that, whens the last time you had to clear a compound and not just run through it mindlessly, because you knew the monkeys were rushing b on the other team.

Then.... I can't see how OWI is at fault.

Edited by Atlan

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6 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

@Nightingale87

 

You're preaching to the choir. I'm in complete agreement with most of your points. No matter what you call your flavor of gameplay though I'm just telling you that slow, brutal, unforgiving and realistic gameplay isn't a viable or sustainable economic model especially when essentially a bunch of arcade clans are the front end of your game so you can disassociate yourself with the financial burden and liability risks of hosting it yourself.

 

By your own admission regarding the cherry picking of the Buddy Rally results in the recent polls you've already come to the conclusion that the inmates are essentially running the prison anyway so to speak. The arcade clans bear the financial burden of being the virtual storefront for the Squad "service" so essentially they get to decide the direction the games goes. 

So you think basically that removing buddy rally is imposible because they would go out of business.

 

Ok. So why do you suggest for it to be removed in other posts?

 

Because that´s all I am saying. Remove buddy rally. THATS IT!.... do you think that Will destroy their income? 

 

They can also add SERVER OPTIONS. As simple as that! everybody happy.

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2 hours ago, Atlan said:

Then.... I can't see how OWI is at fault.

Well. The other team was playing propperly. 

 

OWI´s RESPONSIBILITY (not fault) comes in when they decided to incorpórate arcady mechanics that appeal to a much borader audience to buy the game...and keep it. And stick around so they can show big numbers in steam charts. 

 

That part of the community are to impatient, too COD oriented to actually take their time to think and they dont conceive a FPS game where there are other things as important, if not more important, than actually pointing your gun at enemy and shooting. Things like coordination, logistics, tactis. Even just passing Intel.

 

Then you realice how can a team have sls that play the way you described.

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13 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Well. The other team was playing propperly. 

 

OWI´s RESPONSIBILITY (not fault) comes in when they decided to incorpórate arcady mechanics that appeal to a much borader audience to buy the game...and keep it. And stick around so they can show big numbers in steam charts. 

 

That part of the community are to impatient, too COD oriented to actually take their time to think and they dont conceive a FPS game where there are other things as important, if not more important, than actually pointing your gun at enemy and shooting. Things like coordination, logistics, tactis. Even just passing Intel.

 

Then you realice how can a team have sls that play the way you described.

this man just explained it all

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18 hours ago, Dubs said:

There's two changes in v17(Beta 1) that I came across
- Single man Squads can no longer utilize the BR system. You need at least 2 people(SL + 1 other) for your Squad to have the ability to utilize the BR system.
- You can no longer freely and instantaneously bunny hop from rally point to rally point using the BR system, as a 150 second cool down is present after your first BR use.

Ok, well that sucks. Just like with the changes to leaning, this does nothing to solve the actual problem. Thanks for clarifying, though.

Edited by fatalsushi

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

So you think basically that removing buddy rally is imposible because they would go out of business.

 

Ok. So why do you suggest for it to be removed in other posts?

 

Because that´s all I am saying. Remove buddy rally. THATS IT!.... do you think that Will destroy their income? 

 

They can also add SERVER OPTIONS. As simple as that! everybody happy.

In some respects you've got buddy rally "tunnel vision" though. What about all the other attributes that have been added over the timeline that also contribute to a drastic reduction in realism as well?

 

Certainly many other things such as reducing the amount of players necessary to drop a fob, reducing vehicle ticket values, decreasing vehicle spawn times and making players nearly invincible also contribute to the arcade paradigm as well.

 

Again, my point that an ultra realistic fps game isn't economically viable or sustainable isn't my personal opinion. I don't know why you keep making that myopic supposition. I'm simply observing what the law of supply and demand of the marketplace have dicatated since the beginning of the genre in 1999 with DF1.

 

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1 hour ago, fatalsushi said:

Ok, well that sucks. Just like with the changes to leaning, this does nothing to solve the actual problem. Thanks for clarifying, though.

It reduces some aspects of the cheese, like repetitive bunny hopping from rally to rally to get new positions instantly while also punishing those who lose rally after BRing off another rally in that 150 time window. But yes, it doesn't really change the teleportation cheese. I'd assume this is just the first steps to changes with BR.

 

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10 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

This does absolutely nothing to remedy the actual cheese which is the strategic placement of rally point deep behind enemy lines on the next flag by only a two person squad.

 

Nerf one or the other. Get rid of buddy rally entirely or make it so you need considerably more people in your squad before you can even place a rally point.

But 2 people in a truck doing the same thing with FOBs is okay? At least with buddy rally you might actually see a Squad spawn together. *might*. FOBs are lone wolf factories. Something that almost never happens: a Squad spawning all together at a FOB.

 

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The complete focus on buddy rally is tempting, why not - competitive players and other large voices in the community also hate buddy rally. The difference is they hate buddy rally because it disrupted their beloved Meta. Imagine how they would react to PR mechanics? Or ANY fundamental alterations to the game? It's game design poison. It's not productive.

 

From OWI's perspective it stands to reason that they will stick with Buddy Rally, as much of a flawed band-aid fix that it is, than to start messing with more fundamental aspects of the spawning system which would be even more disruptive and controversial. They're scared puppies when it comes to this sort of thing. That's why they went with a band-aid in the first place.

 

Strikes me as bargaining more than anything. v12 sucked just as hard as v13 did. I don't think the goal is that complicated: get everyone into squads, working together, fighting other Squads. That's where tactics flourish, and where the game is most fun. Weaken mass individual FOB spawns, because they are the biggest obstacle to squad tactics.

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@Good-Try Greg

Difference between rally and fobs:

Requirement of supply

Requirement of vehicle to set up (limited, audible and cost tickets)

Cost in tickets of radio

Time of building

Size and visual patency of presence

Physical form i.e. ability to be destroyed with weapons (although rn it's unreasonably strong)

 

All this justifies advanced teleportation spawning much more than rally. You could bargain it's not hardcore enough and I'd agree, but it should be clear that rally and buddy rally require less teamwork, produce people out of the air more conveniently, lessen significance of reconning, Intel, transportation, map control

 

At this point this game is not about fighting people. It's about fighting spawn points. And buddy rally only made it worse

 

Lonewolf argument is laughable to me, either sl enforces it not existence, or nothing will. Rn rally is "I don't care if I die alone and never get revived, I will just respawn 20 seconds from combat anyway"

Edited by paragonid

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11 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

In some respects you've got buddy rally "tunnel vision" though. What about all the other attributes that have been added over the timeline that also contribute to a drastic reduction in realism as well?

 

Certainly many other things such as reducing the amount of players necessary to drop a fob, reducing vehicle ticket values, decreasing vehicle spawn times and making players nearly invincible also contribute to the arcade paradigm as well.

Maybe because instead of arguing with me, you are arguing with a certain idea you have of me and what I represent and what my arguments would be.

 

I couldnt care less about those other features you mention. That doesn´t affect the gameplay I want to see. The only things that would actually change gameplay are:

 

1- Buddy rally: Having less people spawning close to actions means people will be more careful about their lives, instant action will decrease int he game (which I thing is a FANTASTIC thing), and habs logistics will get a mor prominent role.

 

2- Name tags: just by delaying the appearance of name tags and getting rid of them beyond...say....50 meters… would bring IFF into the game. Players wont be trigger happy and shoot at the first thing that moves because it could be friendly. Then position of squads and position of members within squad would be a thing, thus, imitating some combat reality of cohesion and orientation.

 

3- Just SLIGHTLY longer respawn times. To reduce the brain activity videogames cause of just bloodthirsty action that drivs people to arcade games (dont take me wrong, I like those games, I just want Squad to be different)

 

All the other things you mention for me are thin air. I may agree or not, but non of them would prevent me to play the game. And I definetely agre with some (like vehicle tickets).

11 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Again, my point that an ultra realistic fps game isn't economically viable or sustainable isn't my personal opinion. I don't know why you keep making that myopic supposition. I'm simply observing what the law of supply and demand of the marketplace have dicatated since the beginning of the genre in 1999 with DF1.

Now with this you are obviously confused. Just by bringing it up. It´s like you just don´t listen. Nobody (at least not me) is asking for that kind of game. So just to sabe you some time, stop bringing it up. Observe as many economic laws as you want just do that in another post or even another forum, because here it is off topic.

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

 

Lonewolf argument is laughable to me, either sl enforces it not existence, or nothing will. Rn rally is "I don't care if I die alone and never get revived, I will just respawn 20 seconds from combat anyway"

^  This right there sums up Squad gameplay (After v13). 

 

Not only dont people care about dying alone, but it´s a perfect valid and useful tactic in the game. Such as engineers doing their own thing 400 mts from squad hunting for fobs or planting mines. HATs guys 500 mts away on the other direction trying to find enemy vehicles. And the worst thing is that it Works!!!

 

Why?...Well... Low risk, HUGE reward.

 

HATs (and lats) instead of being an asset to the squad are their own thing. Special forces operatives RAMBO like behind enemy lines. 

 

Risk- Losing a ticket and respawning in 20 seconds close to action again so I can repeat….

 

Reward- Destroying/disabling an nme tank /hab...

 

Of course I would do it...it makes sense.

 

Now Why didnt it happen in PR. Because HAT was a KIT. And if you died with it behind nme lines, then the kit was lost in the middle of enemy and your team had lost a lot of firepower. Squad doesn´t want to use KITs. So come up with another solution because this is aweful gameplay in my opinion. Suggestion...maybe...just add a separe respawn timer for roles like HAT 5 minutes after player is dead or sth like that.

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21 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

^  This right there sums up Squad gameplay (After v13). 

...

Low risk, HUGE reward.

...

just add a separate respawn timer for roles like HAT 5 minutes after player is dead or sth like that.

 

I agree on nearly everything Nightingale87 said. The biggest flaw of Squad right now is that players didn't value their life.

There are too much and quick respawns available thanks to different features such as buddy rally and other factors such as confident in winning 1v1's.  When you fail just repeat and try again it only takes seconds, sometimes even less than 20 seconds thanks to the rally wave system.

Edited by Phoenixstorm

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5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 I couldnt care less about those other features you mention. That doesn´t affect the gameplay I want to see.

That's illogical. All of the more realistic attributes I mentioned plus many more used to be in Squad before and are exponentially more detrimental to realism than "Buddy Rally"

 

Full Gib headshots, much higher ticket costs and longer respawn times for vehicles, SL and 2 other teammates to place a FOB and much longer respawn times just to mention a few. Have you forgotten about those things?

 

Instead you're obsessed with your Buddy Rally fetish. Don't you understand that "Buddy Rally" has existed from the very beginning with the clans cheesing it and all [OWI] did was simply legitimize it but nerf it with persistent ammo so noobs would have access to it as well?

 

What part of the rally point meta don't you get?

 

Say tomorrow Buddy Rally was completely removed from the game. You know what's going to happen next? All the clans in their Discord or TS chats are simply going to go back to doing their little workaround cheese where they TK each other, apologize in all chat, then join the new squad that has the strategic rally point on the objective flag, spawn in, create new squad, change their kits off the transport/logi truck and then drop other new rally points. Its shampoo, rinse, repeat, shampoo, rinse, repeat just like it was before.

 

You'll solve nothing by removing Buddy Rally and not addressing the latent problem.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

2- Name tags: just by delaying the appearance of name tags and getting rid of them beyond...say....50 meters… would bring IFF into the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I've always played with all friendly name tags completely off so I'd be totally down with forced removal of them.

5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

Observe as many economic laws as you want just do that in another post or even another forum, because here it is off topic.

Unlike PR which is a charity modification Squad is a for profit business. I think you're one of the only people here who doesn't understand that and thinks a profit model is an off-topic subject. Especially from the perspective of the development team who wants to turn a profit and pay their bills. Get real.

 

Certainly maintaining publicity hype on Steam, YouTube, Discord, Twitch and other social media platform translates into cash sales each and every day which in turn creates capital for the monthly payroll. 

 

This means continuing to develop a viable and sustainable game that will be accessible and desireable to the younger adult casual demographic and not be some ultra realistic niche title that has daily peaks of under 100 like Tannenberg for example.

 

You're failing to see the bigger picture though. I don't have a dog in the fight but certainly I recognize that like every single previous title in the genre eventually Squad will dwindle in popularity and be rendered obsolete by the next greatest thing.

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12 hours ago, paragonid said:

@Good-Try Greg

Difference between rally and fobs:

Requirement of supply

Requirement of vehicle to set up (limited, audible and cost tickets)

Cost in tickets of radio

Time of building

Size and visual patency of presence

Physical form i.e. ability to be destroyed with weapons (although rn it's unreasonably strong)

 

All this justifies advanced teleportation spawning much more than rally. You could bargain it's not hardcore enough and I'd agree, but it should be clear that rally and buddy rally require less teamwork, produce people out of the air more conveniently, lessen significance of reconning, Intel, transportation, map control

All it takes is 2 people and a truck to make many fringe FOBs with all the supplies they will ever need, and if it contributes at all to winning the game then it will be worth the tickets if any of them die, which they probably won't anyway. I mean It's been buffed repeatedly.

 

12 hours ago, paragonid said:

Lonewolf argument is laughable to me, either sl enforces it not existence, or nothing will. Rn rally is "I don't care if I die alone and never get revived, I will just respawn 20 seconds from combat anyway"

The problem isn't one individual lone wolf, it's an entire team of lone wolfs. With your main FOBs for example, massive amounts of constant respawns are a requirement for those FOBs to stay in the fighting. No SL condescension is going to change the reality. Effective tactics involve shaving off as few men as possible while the bulk of the team holds the line at FOBs. It's an intolerable state, and ironically it got so much worse in v12 when they made FOBs more vulnerable, because it increased the minimum amount of manpower you need to keep a FOB active and spawnable.

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Except missing the point, e.g. fobs cost tickets and being away from action are useless, and only make you lose tickets and manpower building them, and some strange ideas about "effective tactics" which I have no idea where you even bring from, if you are playing in a team of lonewolves, no game mechanics will ever help you anyway

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It it helps, I would never consider mass spawn death at FOBs to ever constitute 'squad tactics', whether those players happen to be in Squads or not. Squad tactics require squads fighting with at least some level of autonomy from the rest of the team. Squad tactics are not inherently effective - taking 9 people out of the fight can very quickly doom your team, especially if it leaves your FOBs vulnerable.

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14 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Because HAT was a KIT. And if you died with it behind nme lines, then the kit was lost in the middle of enemy and your team had lost a lot of firepower. Squad doesn´t want to use KITs.

and thank goodness they don't. that's a very Mil-Sim mechanic to have and would turn off a huge number of players, including myself. (maybe as a "Hard-Core" mode, tho).

14 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Suggestion...maybe...just add a separe respawn timer for roles like HAT 5 minutes after player is dead or sth like that.

^ is a much better solution that players of all types could be happy with, i'm sure.

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14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

That's illogical. All of the more realistic attributes I mentioned plus many more used to be in Squad before and are exponentially more detrimental to realism than "Buddy Rally"

 

Full Gib headshots, much higher ticket costs and longer respawn times for vehicles, SL and 2 other teammates to place a FOB and much longer respawn times just to mention a few. Have you forgotten about those things?

 

Mmm...No. Those changes dont affect gameplay that much.

 

Lets put it like this. If you could change /implement/ eliminate any ONE single feature int he game, ONLY ONE, which one would it be? 

 

IN other words, which one has a bigger impact in the gameplay. Do you really think vehicle respawntimers affect gameplay as much as buddy rally?

 

Anfinally, it´s VERY IRONIC, how you direct people to buy the code from OWI to make their own game, yet you have dozens of changes, while some of us only have 1 or 2. VERY INCOHERENT.

 

14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

What part of the rally point meta don't you get?

 

Say tomorrow Buddy Rally was completely removed from the game. You know what's going to happen next? All the clans in their Discord or TS chats are simply going to go back to doing their little workaround cheese where they TK each other, apologize in all chat, then join the new squad that has the strategic rally point on the objective flag, spawn in, create new squad, change their kits off the transport/logi truck and then drop other new rally points. Its shampoo, rinse, repeat, shampoo, rinse, repeat just like it was before.

 

Even beyond all those assumptions that "exploit" was much less noticeable tan buddy rally previous V13,...so I would trade them definetely.

 

14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

 

Personally I've always played with all friendly name tags completely off so I'd be totally down with forced removal of them.

Unlike PR which is a charity modification Squad is a for profit business. I think you're one of the only people here who doesn't understand that and thinks a profit model is an off-topic subject. Especially from the perspective of the development team who wants to turn a profit and pay their bills. Get real.

Agian I like it and I find ir IRONIC, how all my changes are against the capitalistic instinct and against OWIs business model and I should "get real", and yet your changes are all so moeny friendly….

 

So IRONIC.

 

14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Certainly maintaining publicity hype on Steam, YouTube, Discord, Twitch and other social media platform translates into cash sales each and every day which in turn creates capital for the monthly payroll. 

 

This means continuing to develop a viable and sustainable game that will be accessible and desireable to the younger adult casual demographic and not be some ultra realistic niche title that has daily peaks of under 100 like Tannenberg for example.

 

You're failing to see the bigger picture though. I don't have a dog in the fight but certainly I recognize that like every single previous title in the genre eventually Squad will dwindle in popularity and be rendered obsolete by the next greatest thing.

This. Well. I didnt really pay much attention. It´s off topic and redudnant. Seems like you are doing some major degree in economics and want to review your notes with us. Dont waste your time writing this (at least not for me I wont read this)

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At this point I'm sure Zylfrax791 gets a penny each time he writes "realism"  and derivatives at this forum (who wants to turn a profit and pay their bills. Get real.)

Ah btw about "Squad Switching to Respawn" exploit, even though it wasn't that wide spread, it is indeed a problem. Devs created a problem themselves by introducing perma-rally (comparing to rally mehanics of BF2:PR), but let's help them solve it!

The original purpose of rally in BF:PR2 is not "permanent combat respawn point", it's "emergency after retreat respawn". For dead squad members to respawn, SL has to survive with 2 more squad members, retreat in safety and place rally everytime (as rally times out in ~2mins)

 

In COD style Squad game If "permanent combat respawn point" rally to stay, Rally should not be able to spawn more people than amount of people it was created with + 1. This way, you can place a rally during a match for one new member to spawn, but for each new member you will need to replace the rally. In the same time, "rally power" goes down with everyone leaving the squad (and need to be replaced)

And, uh, wait, this exploit is still present with buddy rallies, everyone can use it, and it still has to be fixed.... so why are we even mentioning it in "buddy rally" discussion? Honestly, anyone experienced with forums still taking Zylfrax791 arguments seriously is played.

Edited by paragonid

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Yeah true about the Rally being stretched beyond what it was originally designed for. On the other hand though a lot of people forget that PR's Rally is waaay better spawn point than a FOB. If you view the different spawn points relative to each other, then Squad's Rally is not overpowered, it's underpowered.

 

I'm not trying to say that criticism of the specifics of Rally are invalid, but without dealing with the spawning on a broader level, how can you be sure that you aren't just recreating the situations that brought in the Buddy Rally in the first place?

Edited by Good-Try Greg

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9 hours ago, paragonid said:

 

In COD style Squad game

Have you ever played COD, it’s nothing like this, they don’t even have rallies or anything similar. I hate it when people compare these games, they are nothing alike

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