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daniboyrulez

Im tired of trying to claim vehicles when people cry to admins

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Its honestly gotten to the point of unplayable where claiming a vehicle that you want is nearly impossible because every server has their own set of rules, and admins do the shit they always want. I have gotten kicked for making a squad first then getting denied by the admins and kicked. And i have gotten kicked for getting the vehicle first, but then again, admins give it to the people who have made the squad  first. This is honestly gotten ridiculous its honestly impossible without someone crying to the admins. Who ever has the fastest PC is almost always going to get it what they want first, leaving the people who really want to use that vehicle in the dust. Might as well not even call the server noob friendly when its just people who repeat the same shit on the same server.

Edited by daniboyrulez

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Ye, it's pretty ****ing dumb whats going on with that. I was the first to claim a chopper on one of the servers and I got perma banned for it... And that's not even the first time I was banned from a server because admin wanted it "his way." This is becoming less interesting every day, and the "This server has rules" is the dumbest argument to use to perma ban people.

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No rules would be even worse. People would wait in main for vehicles to spawn and constantly fight over the right to use it. There is no 100% fair system but giving priority to the first squad with the proper name is imo the best way. But even then people call their squad "Armor" and think that gives them right to both Tanks and IFV:s...

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Yeah there is no perfect solution. I think the best way is to simply give the assetd to the first squad named after em. I mean, i once made a heli squad, had 2 other guys in my team to man the thing,, had a plan and all, only for some asshole who created an infantry squad of 9 people to take it right in front of me because he had a lucky spawn at the start..

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The funniest thing about this is how surprised you guys are acting regarding how the whole situation with Helicopter claiming is going down. If you're getting the SL pilot role and claiming the helicopter but then getting kicked from the server because the admin and his buddies want it you have zero recourse due to the fact that they aren't actually doing anything that is against the server licensing agreement. Funny how that works.

 

It's exactly the same as when the tanks were released so I can't imagine how you'd think it would be any different in this case.

 

Let's be realistic here, the entire front end of the game since day one has been nothing but private franchises that basically call the shots and do as they please. On the other hand, they pay the server hosting bills and comply with the super vague server licensing agreement so how can you blame them? 

 

So yeah, until a universal set of rules are applied to the server licensing agreement and/or official servers are provided expect a "our tree fort, our rules" gaming experience that is rife with cronyism and favoritism.

 

On a side note, my opinion is that the game should be reprogrammed down to only a couple or so pilots per faction similar to the HAT restrictions. It would still boil down to who has the fastest connection, SSD and clicking ability however the system should be hard coded for the first come first serve paradigm instead of a bunch of pilots hanging around the main base waiting for the next chopper to spawn thus losing the game for your team.

 

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PR servers have a squad creation time for a reason.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I'm fairly disappointed that Squad doesn't have built in support for asset squads yet. Claiming assets should be as simple as claiming a kit. Server rules and named squads are the next best thing. First come first serve sucks because it actively pits you against your teammates, makes finding certain assets difficult during the match (who is flying right now? who do I talk to to get armor support? ugh. etc.),  and leads to multiple people waiting in main for a contested asset.

Edited by Aleon

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On 11/6/2019 at 5:17 AM, Aleon said:

PR servers have a squad creation time for a reason.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I'm fairly disappointed that Squad doesn't have built in support for asset squads yet. Claiming assets should be as simple as claiming a kit. Server rules and named squads are the next best thing. First come first serve sucks because it actively pits you against your teammates, makes finding certain assets difficult during the match (who is flying right now? who do I talk to to get armor support? ugh. etc.),  and leads to multiple people waiting in main for a contested asset.

Still a race to the front though man. I'm trying to practice my helo piloting but until I'm on my new, faster connection I'll nearly always be behind SpeedyJoe(tm) and his broadband. If there was an asset squad support system, he'd still beat me to it.

 

#publyf

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1 hour ago, Bachelor_Chow said:

If there was an asset squad support system, he'd still beat me to it.

 

No, because you know exactly when you will be able to make the squad thanks to the timer on your screen. If you have higher ping, anticipate it and click a bit sooner. I know this works because I've been doing it for years in PR.

 

(And still, with a correctly implemented system you wouldn't even need this. The server could just wait a second when the squad becomes available and pick someone who requested at random. Even better you could just click "I want heli" beforehand, and when the squad becomes available at a set time before round starts, the game assigns it to someone. If you really had the time, it could take into consideration how much you played as a given role in the past frew matches, so that everyone gets to play assets every now and then if they wanted.)

 

Edited by Aleon

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There's nothing fair in giving 1 man control over all assets just because he macros created a squad in the beginning of the round.

First come first serve is the only sane option.

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8 minutes ago, paragonid said:

First come first serve is the only sane option.

Your server will be full of

- people waiting in main trying to snatch an asset they want to play or

- SLs randomly abandoning their inf squads to fend for themselves because they just happened to find a tank in main

- People jumping into an asset and wasting it BF style

 

You can see all of these right now on various servers without asset rules.

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I play on server with first come first serve rule. No name claiming. People waiting in main doesn't happen.

Although recently admins introduced "first to wait for vehicle is to claim it" rule, which I guess a better anyway, but rest of my message about first come first serve.

 

If your sl abandoning squad to play a tank, your sl wasn't worth to play with in first place. Help yourself, leave squad and never join again. It has no connection to claiming rule

"Wasting asset" bullshit is legacy brain damage from BF2:PR and nobody still can define what is it exactly. At this point, it is mostly "admin isnt my friend and doesn't like the way I play, so he wants the asset for himself"

 

In more than 100h since choppers I've seen less than 10 crashed on my no name claiming server, and I'm pretty sure everyone crashed improved at least a little. In your community where admins/friends claim 50% of vehicle squad, nobody learns. If your community isn't like that, sorry to you, but we have no such problems.

 

Want something serious, stop expecting it to happen in 80 player games on public servers or go instinct like every one else did

Edited by paragonid

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Our experience seems to vary. ^_^

 

Ignoring the gigantic elephant in the room, that first come first serve does not solve OP's problem*, could you explain to me how does one get into an asset in your ideal scenario? Let's say Average Joe enjoys playing tanks. What steps does he take to get into a tank, given that

- he can not claim an asset (obviously)

- he can not be waiting in main for the asset, because apparently people don't do that

 

1. Want tank

2. ???

3. Get tank

 

I'd probably have a better understanding of your point if you could fill in step two for me. Do people just randomly happen to be in main at the right time?

 


*With first come first serve, there is nothing stopping from people with short loading times to cease an asset at round start before everyone else, then timing when the asset will respawn (they know exactly when it died), and just returning to main at the exact right time take it again. Since we assume people are not waiting in main for the assets they will never get challenged and get indefinite control. Almost, as if they made a dedicated squad... First come first serve is an unstable system which naturally converges to asset claiming at best, chaos (as written in my previous post) at worst.

Edited by Aleon

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@Aleon
How does it solves OP's problem?
>Im tired of trying to claim vehicles when people cry to admins
1. He wants vehicle
... <--- you think problem is here
2. He gets vehicle
3. He gets told he broke some rules (or not even told), gets kicked and wait in queue for next 30 minutes <--- but problem is here

"First come first serve" removes admin from the process. He will get a vehicle (he was able to get a vehicle in server with "Name claiming" without a problem) and use it without need to read server rules about claiming and ever talking to admins. I really don't understand, why do you think it doesn't solve his issue and where did you find the elephant.
 

"First come first server" vs "Name claiming"
Game has "delayed respawn time" for most of game mods (strange that not all), everyone spawn at one moment at time after it passes, effectively working as BF2:PR "squad creation time" at the round start, but without need to admin it. Instead, you are indeed describing "Name claiming rule" rather than anything else, most of the time most powerfull pc + macros for squad creation + played last round will load in time and name claim the asset. And then never return to main to take the asset and don't care about wasting it, it will still ever be his, and if they want to shoot inf a little in "dedicated squad" , nobody else in the team can use the asset at all.
With no "delayed respawn time" it's "most powerfull pc + played last round will load" rather than "most powerfull pc + macros for squad creation + played last round", don't see big difference anyway, just sideeffects. 


In other words, "Name claiming" over "First come first server" results in
- binding a vehicle(s) (potentially more than they can man at all) to group of people
but has cost of
- need of admin support + potential of abuse
- potential of asset(s) not used

Name claiming doesn't provide "Skill", "Guarantee of not being wasted" or anything else, so what is even the point?
On the contrary, I have videos of admins of popular servers harassing me for claiming tanks in front of them, making up rules on the go like "you can't have inf in tank squad" and etc in "Name claiming" server.

Edited by paragonid

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You are talking past me. I've already addressed that my position is not to have admins enforcing claims, but that claiming enforced by game mechanics is the best way to go. The servers making the rules instead of the game are just a makeshift way of avoiding the chaos of a free-for-all. I thought position is pretty clear on this.

 

Whether or not admins abuse their powers is irrelevant when it comes to differentiating the methods of arbitration. No matter what system you have, rules or no rules, game mechanics or no game mechanics, there is nothing keeping the admins from kicking you and taking your shit. That's just shit admins. To quote you with a twist:

1 hour ago, paragonid said:

your sl admin wasn't worth to play with in first place

 

I'm still interested in that step two. How does one get a vehicle other than just happening to be in main at the right time?

Edited by Aleon

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@Aleon
there is nothing keeping the admins from kicking you and taking your shit
Incorrect, there's server licencing, and OWI promise to keep licenced servers fair. Even though it's just another "admin abuse by OWI" mechanism (good luck complaining on mumblemarines server), the potential of losing server licence over "admin abuse" keeps some admins pretty civil.

SL isn't forced to you by most except the most totalitarian servers ("no half squads allowed, merge"). Admin is server forced, the only way to change admin is to change server.
Even more "Name claiming" is forcing claimed SL on you (if you didn't manage to do it first), or no assets at all. Forcing people who don't want to play together in 1 squad is pretty stupid.
And yes, I obviously stand by "any admin involvement is bad and should be avoided" principle. It doesn't contradict anything else I've said.

"Claiming enforced by game mechanics" (if "name claiming" implied) sounds like have all the negatives I described for "Name claiming" except admin intervention. Better, but still no better than "First come first serve" (further I suggest "claiming be game mechanics" we both could probably support)


> How does one get a vehicle other than just happening to be in main at the right time?
Why do you think it's necessary to have such mechanics in first place? Why is "being in main at the right time" not good enough for you?
As you've said "knowing vehicle respawn time" is beneficial to one who lost the vehicle to know exact respawn time and get it again. All vehicles waiting to respawn should be displayed in UI as a list anyway with current timer until respawn, so anyone in the team can see and plan accordingly instead of guessing. As inf SL i need to know, should I build 3 tows for defense, or our tank will respawn soon and it's not that big of the problem). If it was web and JS I'd make such system in couple of hours max, pretty sure everyone will only benefit from it. After it, plan accordingly and be in main at the right time for desired vehicle.

Want more?
Get a UI available for SL, when vehicle is destroyed and on respawn timer, SLs can click on it and get unchangeable vehicle claim for 2 minutes after it respawned. Multiple squad request a vehicle during pre-spawn period? Run in-game random number lottery.

- doesn't render vehicle unusable if "claimed owner" isn't interested to take it right now
- organizes vehicle owning, so no "run to vehicle" competition occurs
- vehicle rotation is still available, multiple people can use it during one round without joining squad of people they don't want to join

 

Want even more?

Deprioritize chopper pilots during lottery if they crashed previous one (not killed by player) and etc. This way "the less wasteful" players will get priority. Same for vehicles died to flipping, driving out of map borders, etc.

Best of "first come first server" and "Name claiming" worlds with couple days of work. Amount of QoL/UI improvements squad could introduce is limitless, right now UI is extremely dull and unsupportive of own mechanics.
But such QoL will not happen in Squad any soon, even simpliest suggestions (no vehicle engines on druing staging perioud) take 1+ year to get introduced in squad... so for OP "first come first serve" rn is the only way

Edited by paragonid

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2 hours ago, paragonid said:

Want more?

I do actually, these are great ideas. ^_^

2 hours ago, paragonid said:

Why do you think it's necessary to have such mechanics in first place? Why is "being in main at the right time" not good enough for you?

The reason why I insisted on that, is because without addressing the how of getting a vehicle, there is zero discussion to be had. If someone wants to play a given role, "it will randomly happen eventually" is not a strategy that they will realistically employ. I was making the point that it's impossible to answer that question in a first come first serve context, without admitting that the only thing you can do is wait in main for the vehicle, and which you seemed to have been claiming wouldn't happen.

 

But in the end it turns out you don't want to first come first serve system either. You do actually want vehicle claiming, just with different granularity. In the grand scheme of things, we want the same thing. One must be able to claim a vehicle. Squad naming is one way of doing this. A quite fragile way of doing it, which I would love to replace. Like you just fleshed out, there are way better alternatives.

 

I don't intend to argue whether per-vehicle or per-vehicle-type claiming is better. They both have different trade-offs. I'm accustomed to committing to a single role for a whole round, which might not be a thing for everyone.

Edited by Aleon

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@Aleon
wait in main for the vehicle, and which you seemed to have been claiming wouldn't happen.

A little misunderstanding, what I tried to address is argument "whole team will wait in the main to compete in taking a vehicle as soon at it respawns". Some people don't want to do anything except taking the vehicle, it's okay and they will wait. But statistically they don't meet a lot of competition.

In general, vehicle taking implementation should be address the purpose.
For me, 
1. Available vehicles should be in use rather than just left in the main
2. Forcing player is bad (i.e. into pre-defined squads for vehicles)
3. Admin intervention is bad
4. In public server environment players shouldn't be discriminated in use of vehicles by opinion of admin/other players.

5. Hoarding vehicles (letting same operators to use them over and over after losing) is bad. Losing vehicle should be discouraged by chance you won't have it again

Edited by paragonid

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