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SinisterGlitch

Are clan servers destroying gameplay

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Hi there Community,

 

Just to start the discussion about clans servers.

I have been playing this game since the start and so far got 3252 hours  ( i can already hear people screaming, we don't care about your hours, you feel like a big man huh ). I have spend countless times training SL's that say that don't know what to do. i would help them throughout the game and give proper instructions.

When there are no squads in the start of the round and people are waiting, i will tell people to create one and i will help them with every step ( often works ).

By saying the above i want to state that i think i have a strong community sense and want to help the game get better.


Clans promoting disastrous gameplay tactics:
- 3 manned clan member tanks wiping out the whole game since experienced armour is hard to come by and will create a in-balance very quickly
- Sitting just outside of main and not really on main and waiting for logi's and other vehicles to come out of main 
- Full squad of clan members rushing the first flags to cut off the whole chain of the enemy
- Constant switching to US and leaving RU and INF mostly with not so experienced people.

If you have played this game a lot, you might have noticed the mentioned issues above are incredible effective and will most certain destroy an almost 2 hour match.
(also noticed they handing out macros that will create pre-defined named squads attached to a key bind to claim vehicles and heli's faster.)

Balance 
Clan servers are mostly one side matches since even if you see 14 clan members in one side, they all have 1 friend in there and makes a full faction.
When talking about balance they just all shift to the other side and destroy the other faction ( mostly because clans tend to play US only and switch to US on every occasion to simulate balance.

Squad locking and guidelines (Please kick the members to accomplish the same, do not lock your squad).
Why is squad locking in the game if you cant use it, why are the admins controlling the actual game mechanics and should they be able? Are there rules given from the developers that they have to uphold in order for their license to be renewed ( i can hear someones wallet getting empty by saying this xD )

You don't have to be on this server
This statement is the first thing i hear when mentioning something incorrect, the problem is that all servers are clan servers with a large overlap in rules.

Example of a good server
I nominate PA servers as a very good example of an excellent clan server with minimal to almost no interference and seems to work perfectly fine. i think it has to do with the little amount of clan members dominating the their servers which makes the gameplay very balanced. Most people know PA server you can solo a tank if you wanted too, yet it almost never happens.

Edited by SinisterGlitch

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I dont really get what you want to suggest. At first there are a lot servers that arent lead by clans, but even these servers mostly work together with clans, cause they have active players and you need active admins and people for seeding. How do you want to arrange a server without clans, do you ban every clan joining? What is the idea behind it? Basically the only difference from what you say about PA server is that rarely clans play on it, but that isnt in the hand of the server owner, when now 4 clans come and daily play on the server, PA wouldnt be any difference or am i wrong?

 

Edited by Rangarson

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When i was inside a clan i never noticed how unmotivated the other team was because we out-rushed them placed a proper FOB and just stood there for 2 hours while the team back-caps and the game ends, we had a great time killing people rushing from main one by one because there is no buffer zone for regrouping.

When clans dominate a server it all goes to shit real quick ( and notice how different clans try to join the same team instead of fighting eachoteher ), this is why balancing should be more focused and enforced somehow.

Seeding could be resolved easily with a join button ( auto matching ), this might not be effective now since people already choose their favourite servers. It would help the seeding process a lot till this day. People joining an empty server in most modern games is normal but they expect an increase in player-base in a short amount of time ( auto matching ).

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 @SinisterGlitch

 

Part of your statement I agree with, the other part I don't.


One of the only reasons I still play Squad is the simple fact that it has a strategic element to it that requires planning and tactics to win a match. There is currently no other game in the genre that possesses this kind of gameplay.


That said, it's completely illogical to fault people for organizing in groups and getting good at the game. That makes no sense to me.

 

On the other hand though, what is completely and utterly wrong is the simple fact that from the very start the game itself should have been programmed with a built-in set of universal rules.

 

Instead, what was implemented was a lazy set of "server guidelines" which are a virtual gray area that has not only allowed organized groups to create layer upon layer of pointless supplemental rules but ironically has also stunted the actual growth of the community itself.

 

How else would you explain the fact that there's over a million concurrent key holders and yet daily peaks around of around 3000 players? Across the entire timeline you see a complete stagnation with basically zero growth in the playership.

 

When one compares sales versus playership it becomes readily apparent that the game is initially found to be appealing to the new purchaser. However, clearly it appears as though they play it past the Steam refund and then for unknown reasons move on.

 

You can draw your own conclusions as to why that is but it's my opinion that not having a built-in set of consistent rules hard coded into the game that allow for a fair and balanced experience have literally driven away a million players and will ultimately be the demise of the game.

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I think you have said it better in a more general aspect.

I know the clans are not the cause, they are merely the symptoms ( hard felt though ) in this gameplay issue.

 

Im hoping Admins or Devs will pay attention to my post and my points and maybe even ask changes from the community to fix this structurally in the game.

Edited by SinisterGlitch

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Good Admins balance the Teams, so if you have 40 clanplayer and 40 randoms just split them 20 each so both sides have 20 clan player and 20 randoms.

Should the game still be unbalanced just move 3-5 clanmates from the winning the to the team theat got defeated.

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META:
- 3 manned clan member tanks wiping out the whole game since experienced armour is hard to come by and will create a in-balance very quickly
- Sitting just outside of main and not really on main and waiting for logi's and other vehicles to come out of main 
- Full squad of clan members rushing the first flags to cut off the whole chain of the enemy
- Constant switching to US and leaving RU and INF mostly with not so experienced people.

What is to blame?
Your answer: clans
Actual answer: game mechanics

Many clans accept new players, shape/teach them to play, keep player activity high. In that sense, clans do for community much more than you could ever do, because they are many, and you are alone.

Any player searching to win the game through his skill and experience will apply the Most Efficient Tactics Available to archive the win. Anyone who will avoid META either doesn't care about winning or doesn't know how to do it. So why are you blaming clans? Just because the people joining clans are typically the type of players actually able to cooperate/communicate/imply proper tactics, they are ruining the game? The clans are the only proper way to play the game in first place, as they are supposed to provide stable active structure, where you can improve as a group.

 


also noticed they handing out macros that will create pre-defined named squads attached to a key bind to claim vehicles and heli's faster.
And job givers are handing out money so they can buy better SSD and processors to load into the game and create the squad faster. How is it the clans faults? If you server has asset name claiming rules, it's the problem of your server rules, not people who uses them.


Most people know PA server you can solo a tank if you wanted too, yet it almost never happens.
Is PA stands for Project Awesome?

(I play on Project Awesome and the rules for the longer than 1 last year is that all crewman required vehicles have to be 2-manned and admins are actively and effectively preventing one-manning. And even then, PA has several small stable groups of people playing together, even if they don't have same clan tags before their name, they dominate most of vehicle combat/asset destruction/diversions)

Edited by paragonid

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Quote

Any player searching to win the game through his skill and experience will apply the Most Efficient Tactics Available to archive the win. Anyone who will avoid META either doesn't care about winning or doesn't know how to do it. So why are you blaming clans?

Squad is made for immersion and the experience for being a soldier and not for the stats and wins, this is what competitive mode is for. People played Project REALITY for the immersion not the wins. I remember the mod was created to distinguishes themselves from those type of players.

You definition of a good player is someone that wins ( no matter the costs ), my definition of a good player is someone who immerses himself and try to make an adventure, if Squad wanted wins to be the main theme, the matches would lasted 15 minutes.
 

Quote

Just because the people joining clans are typically the type of players actually able to cooperate/communicate/imply proper tactics, they are ruining the game? The clans are the only proper way to play the game in first place, as they are supposed to provide stable active structure, where you can improve as a group.

You still do not understand my statement, working together and being a clan is not the problem. It is the combination of ADMIN control, META gaming and splitting the "public (clan)" servers in 2 factions called  "Clans" and "Public people".
 

Quote

also noticed they handing out macros that will create pre-defined named squads attached to a key bind to claim vehicles and heli's faster.
And job givers are handing out money so they can buy better SSD and processors to load into the game and create the squad faster. How is it the clans faults? If you server has asset name claiming rules, it's the problem of your server rules, not people who uses them.


Im calling an "inside-information gives you unfair advantage over vehicle claiming" problem as an issue and you talk about people working to buy SSD's, what?

Quote

Most people know PA server you can solo a tank if you wanted too, yet it almost never happens.
Is PA stands for Project Awesome?

(I play on Project Awesome and the rules for the longer than 1 last year is that all crewman required vehicles have to be 2-manned and admins are actively and effectively preventing one-manning. And even then, PA has several small stable groups of people playing together, even if they don't have same clan tags before their name, they dominate most of vehicle combat/asset destruction/diversions)

 

The rules are there since most admins copy, i played 2 matches today and noticed both matches that a BTR was solo'd. I am not saying that solo'ing a vehicle is good,

i'm using PA as an example where the clan tags and appearance seems like a normal public server and the gameplay is very much fun and balanced. Being on clan servers and hear all the player/admin talks about claims, someone using a wrongly or, someone getting kicked because he uses a motorcycle, etc.

The points admin use to kick are all legit, like "taking a motor cycle" resulted in a kick for "abusing team resources" (happened in RIP server because probably because someone wanted that motor cycle ). 

Edited by SinisterGlitch

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1 hour ago, SinisterGlitch said:

Squad is made for immersion and the experience for being a soldier and not for the stats and WINs because that is what competitive mode is for. People played Project REALITY for the immersion not the wins. i remember the mod was created to not affiliate with those players.

 

It's not made for it. Show me where does it state that it's made for it? Show me where does it state that Squad as any other arcade First Person Shooter doesn't encourage winning?
What competitive mode are you even talking about?
> People played Project REALITY for the immersion not the win
I know a lot of people who played project reality for win and not immersion, even though I personally don't care about winning in public (non-competitive environment outside of pre-made team-clans), I know hundreds of people who played for it.
> i remember the mod was created to not affiliate with those players.
What? Project Reality Tournament was supported by developers of PR, they participated in it, sponsored and helped with its organization.

Sorry, but it seems you live in parallel reality, that's beside that you state a lot of things based nothing rather than what you what to believe which is quite opposite to any existing facts, so yes, I give up and clans are obviously ruining squad or mad cuz bad.

Edited by paragonid

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Quote

It's not made for it. Show me where does it state that it's made for it? Show me where does it state that Squad as any other arcade First Person Shooter doesn't encourage winning?
What competitive mode are you even talking about?
> People played Project REALITY for the immersion not the win
I know a lot of people who played project reality for win and not immersion, even though I personally don't care about winning in public (non-competitive environment outside of pre-made team-clans), I know hundreds of people who played for it.


Squad is about immersion wins

Please read and understand the word reality and try to imagine what this meant when they created the mod with that name. Asking me to proof where SQUAD specifically said that the game is not about winning ( or the opposite) is just plain stupid, and i really hope you know that. If not .... 

 

Quote

> i remember the mod was created to not affiliate with those players.
What? Project Reality Tournament was supported by developers of PR, they participated in it, sponsored and helped with its organization.

Sorry, but it seems you live in parallel reality, that's beside that you state a lot of things based nothing rather than what you what to believe which is quite opposite to any existing facts, so yes, I give up and clans are obviously ruining squad or mad cuz bad.

What does hosting a competitive tournament has to do with my argument that the game makers made the game with immersion in mind? every game is about win and loss in the end, how you play the game is what is important.

Edited by SinisterGlitch

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Stacked teams are a huge problem. I see them even more commonly during the player peaks after updates and sales. Most of the time there is nothing to be done as most experienced players will leave or change teams after a couple of these stomps. There for sure needs to be a vote system implemented in order to give the teams an opportunity to start fresh on the next map.

 

Even though this problem might be solved by active admins, you run into the problem with many servers not having admins on all the time or admins that don't care. This too could be solved by simply finding a good server with decent admins, but this is a short term solution. It would be much better to give dedicated tools to the community in order to solve this issue. 

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1 hour ago, Geebus said:

Stacked teams are a huge problem. I see them even more commonly during the player peaks after updates and sales. Most of the time there is nothing to be done as most experienced players will leave or change teams after a couple of these stomps. There for sure needs to be a vote system implemented in order to give the teams an opportunity to start fresh on the next map.

 

Even though this problem might be solved by active admins, you run into the problem with many servers not having admins on all the time or admins that don't care. This too could be solved by simply finding a good server with decent admins, but this is a short term solution. It would be much better to give dedicated tools to the community in order to solve this issue. 

How do you hard code an auto balance feature or vote system into game like Squad that doesn't have a conventional aggregate in the game modes like other fps games?

 

Certainly you couldn't base it on K/D or the points you accumulate simply by sitting in a flag. Nevermind the fact that even if you could devise some Rube Goldberg balancing system into the game what's going to stop clans from simply switching until they're all back together again?

 

Needless to say, many times you'll see a team with more kills actually lose the match so yeah, there's that to consider as well.

 

Besides, in reality you should actually prefer to have all the members of a particular crew all on one side because of the potential for ghosting.

 

Instead people should focus on learning how to play better and anticipate that any decent clan is going to pull some deep flanking meta on you right away so counter it and catch them.

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

How do you hard code an auto balance feature or vote system into game like Squad that doesn't have a conventional aggregate in the game modes like other fps games?

 

Certainly you couldn't base it on K/D or the points you accumulate simply by sitting in a flag. Nevermind the fact that even if you could devise some Rube Goldberg balancing system into the game what's going to stop clans from simply switching until they're all back together again?

 

Needless to say, many times you'll see a team with more kills actually lose the match so yeah, there's that to consider as well.

 

Besides, in reality you should actually prefer to have all the members of a particular crew all on one side because of the potential for ghosting.

 

Instead people should focus on learning how to play better and anticipate that any decent clan is going to pull some deep flanking meta on you right away so counter it and catch them.

 

 

 

With the clan issue there really is no fix other than "git gud". Like you said, even if there was a team scramble, they would all change back to the same team. The idea of the vote system is more for well coordinated teams versus inexperienced teams. Something to mix up the servers full of random strangers. If one team has 3 experienced SLs and the other has 1 or none, my money is on the first team.

 

I don't know how viable a system that randomly assigns players would be but that is as far as it could go with squad. The only thing I could see that might stop people from just switching back to the other is their own laziness. If you are playing with random people, you will probably just hit the continue button and go about the game.

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21 minutes ago, Geebus said:

The only thing I could see that might stop people from just switching back to the other is their own laziness.

This is the answer right here.

 

You can't stop people who are dead set on playing in a coordinated, team environment from switching around. If they're keen, they'll switch, and if they coordinated team is winning, great. That to me is what Squad is about. I don't see how playing against a well coordinated clan team is any different to getting absolutely teabagged by a stacked team in COD, BF or literally any other shooter. At least here you don't have prestige douches trying to laud their mad skills over everyone.

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I havent played Squad for a bout a year, this argument is nothing new, I too have been with the game since the beginning on steam, but I think it comes down to the server your playing on.  Co-ordinated teams will generally wipe another team and of course whilst the individual players in a clan are no better than most casuals, it is the coordination that is key.  Blaming a clan for being co-ordinated whilst playing on their server...yea seems fair... why not blame the casuals who wont co-ordinate.  I'm not in a clan anymore but  always communicate and help where I can.    

 

 

 

 

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eu has some servers giving whitelist privilege to non clan players who lead decent squads

 

his doesn't stop rushing being the best way to win.

but this does.

throw a AA vic into the middle of a map at the start of a round and you immediately have an unpredictable game.

a small squad in a random place on the map at the start -SURPRISE! new gameplay emerges.

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3 hours ago, suds said:

eu has some servers giving whitelist privilege to non clan players who lead decent squads

 

his doesn't stop rushing being the best way to win.

but this does.

throw a AA vic into the middle of a map at the start of a round and you immediately have an unpredictable game.

a small squad in a random place on the map at the start -SURPRISE! new gameplay emerges.


They should reform INS and Militia spawn locations from a heap of vehicles and one spawn to multiple spawns on different locations which makes it impossible to get a good grip on them, since they are more ambush type of factions.

The more organised factions like US, GB, CA, RU will have a large base in all maps with all vehicles on one location.

This change will make the INS and Militia more fun for squad leaders and reduce the in-balance of experienced squad leaders.

Edited by SinisterGlitch

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I am part of ZXD and we play Squad every night together as mates on public servers.

Theres a couple of things to consider, first off what is a clan server over say a community server. Most of what we play on are what I would term community servers. The RIP vs the world Friday night event is a good example of a stacked clan server (and its usually a great night gaming).

We generally find with a full ZXD Infrantry Squad and supporting single heavy vehicle, if all the other side is public players we smash it. If there is another clan or 2 full Squad/s on the other side it can be a good, close game and sometimes we will even lose. 

I feel its the admin that makes the difference, and then the Squad Leaders. I have literally played dozens of round where the opposition will simply not bother to cap initial points and then wonder why they lost so bad. Or set up half sensible spawn points, or heal each other or, well do much at all except run and gun. So many rounds our Squad Leaders report that the (often) public Squad Leaders don't say a word about the round............................like nothing at all. 

So my choice is simple, play with the public all the time and I recon have maybe a decent round in every 10, or do what we do and have a 7 decent rounds in 10. 

Alot of people feel or express a clan is some mystical crazy set up, it often isnt. We just play Squad (together) every night and love the game with a focus on team play and winning. A little try hard but hardly off the scale! The result is over many thousdands of hours, were a pretty good team and win way more than we lose.

That can upset public players, and for that, we are sorry..............................but hey get on and gut good right!

So my point is or the most part my experience is that clans, and indeed clan servers are giving our public players the oppertunity to play the game well!

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On 16.10.2019 at 2:43 PM, Phoenixstorm said:

Good Admins balance the Teams, so if you have 40 clanplayer and 40 randoms just split them 20 each so both sides have 20 clan player and 20 randoms.

Should the game still be unbalanced just move 3-5 clanmates from the winning the to the team theat got defeated.

Or just play better, most clans are bad at the game. :'( Its just that there's so many newbies that needs teaching.

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I don't really have a problem with clan servers.

 

Some do load up one side with experienced clan members.  Some do not.

 

I've been to plenty of servers where half the clan is on one side and half is on the other side.  It's always a coin toss as to which side wins.

 

Your best bet is to find a server you like and play in it regularly :)

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