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unfrail

Asymmetric Resources, Asset Fabrication, and FOB Decentralization.

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Insurgents tend to get the short end of the stick, and while more than enough times they are able to come out on top, they're the perpetual underdogs. One of the reasons Insurgencies pose such a threat IRL to conventional factions is because the Insurgents are not bound to the same rules as a conventional faction. It is this ability to "Get Creative" that I would like to Suggest and Discuss.

Thesis: Give the Insurgents access to resources in the field to be collected, and utilized, that are only accessible to them.

 

Examples:

 

  • Stealing Civilian cars for modification into VBIEDs.
  • Stealing M2s off of wrecked, but not destroyed Humvees.
  • Stealing GAU-2s off of wrecked but not destroyed Helicopters.
  • Stealing pressurized vessels for the fabrication of IEDs.

 

In essence, there would be the ability to collect existing randomly scattered resources on the field, or there would be the ability to scavenge weapons off of hardware deposited in battle.

 

I imagine this implementation as complimented by some higher tier FOB structures for Insurgents where they would have something like a "Fabrication Shop" where resources brought to them would allow them to take whatever weapons they found in the field and to upgrade their Technicals. This kind of a "crafting mechanism" could be complimentary to the "base building" mechanism of the coalition forces.

This brings me to the next consideration I would suggest, and that is that Insurgents arent necessarily known for their "FOB" building, but more typically their squatting in existing structures.

 

CoThesis: What if a part of the Insurgent base building mechanism was a much larger build radius for specialized structures, and modification of existing strucures?

 

Examples:

 

  • Commandeering an existing garage structure for a Technical upgrade shop.
  • Commandeering an existing building as a field hospital for insurgents.
  • Commandeering an existing building as an IED Fabrication station.

 

The key here is that these buildings would ideally be ubiquitously scattered through out the map (as opposed to clustered around a radio), in a quantity that made their probable location hard to estimate, and that until you saw modified Technicals, there is no reason to investigate the existence of such a structure, since they could be building IEDs instead, or chose some other investment to victory. They achieve "security through obscurity," as it is said.

---

I realize these are kinda large scale ideas, and a bit late in the game plan, but I think that facilitating ingenuity as a resource for insurgent factions would make asymmetrical warfare more approximately and ideally balanced in its asymmetry.

 

I dont expect these to happen, but I've had fun thinking about them for the last couple days. :)

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I really enjoyed how you set your suggestion up, marking your thesis and clearly stating multiple examples. People should learn from this layout and use it, as it illustrates the idea in a very obvious and straightforward manner.

 

Although this is an idea that if implemented, would take a very long time to set up, it actually gives the Insurgents something to work together for. Too often in PR:BF2 do Insurgent teams end up lone-wolfing, causing the majority of losses that I see. This is a great way to balance the "World Power vs. Underdog" gameplay without using symmetry.

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Kokan:

If the Insugents get a Blackhawk down thier can enter the crashed Blackhawk and demount the gatling, bring it back to main and mounted on the next Technical ?

 

Did you mean things like that ? :lol:

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Kokan:

If the Insugents get a Blackhawk down thier can enter the crashed Blackhawk and demount the gatling, bring it back to main and mounted on the next Technical ?

 

Did you mean things like that ? :lol:

Yes.

Or, they acquire scattered Oil barrels and make IEDs out of them.

Or, find and hotwire Ladas and Buses and modify them to act as VBIEDs.

That would be what I imagine for these Scavenge and Modify element. Something Insurgent forces very much do today.

On the flipside, it would add a necessity to securing crash sites, and it could add an additional cost to losing assets. Would need balance consideration, but, I like the idea of complimenting the novel base-building mechanic of conventional factions with something typical of Insurgent factions.

 

 

 

I really enjoyed how you set your suggestion up, marking your thesis and clearly stating multiple examples. People should learn from this layout and use it, as it illustrates the idea in a very obvious and straightforward manner.

I have had way too much practice on the forums :P Thank you however. Glad it was accessible.

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Imagine so much fun, with that idea :rolleyes:

 

I even enjoy the Asymmetric Gameplay in PR as well but with some new features it would be perfekt.

 

That would be make the insurgents much more interessting and stop maybe some bluefore switcher. ;)

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I think more than anything, Insurgents are resourceful.

 

They take what they find and make it useful.

It would be a compelling game mechanic, were it considered, and feasible.

 

I also really like the idea of gridding as a US soldier and finding a "Tech-Warehouse" in some random building where IEDs are being manufactured by Insurgents, and then securing and removing that resource from them. Or a "Fabrication Shop" where there are cars being armored, or weapons upgraded, etc, and stopping that resource flow.

 


Was thinking about an "Arms-Dealer" specialization role that would take orders, and then drive to the border to pick up special kits and ammo-limited kits, like Stinger Missiles, and NVGs etc. Could be really interesting, but I havent quite hashed through all the possible mechanics yet.

 

800xln.jpg

 

Ali_Hassan_al-Jaber_Brigade.jpg

 

They definitely dont come from the factory like that :P

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Could be a fun feature, if oil and wires etc. were placed random places on the map you could have a few guys collecting it.

 

The idea of looting destroyed blufor assets also creats another "mini-game" as blufor can secure the area and make the destroyed asset useless for the insurgents. I guess this would again promote blufor moving in convoys and not just going alone into the map with an apc etc. as the insurgents can build some heavy stuff if they manage to loot it.

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Good ideas. There's some other ways that insurgents still are a considerable foe.

1) They know the area. They have hideouts, tunnels, and caves. They know the choke points. This is their land, their backyard. In game, this could be reflected with a more detailed in-game map perhaps?

2) They hide among civilians. This along with gorilla warfare make insurgents hard to identify. Unfortunately in Squad, there current aren't any civilians for the insurgents to hide amongst. Imagine if every village and farm had AI civilians walking around and going about their daily life. It would be a lot harder to spot the baddies then

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Sounds like a fantastic idea that could add some unconvential warfare to the game. I like it!

 

PS. Your posts are always top notch, sir. I appreciate you taking the effort to completely lay your idea out, providing a thesis and elaboration in a well-constructed way. +10, brotha. 

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I was thinking of this the other day as well but not quite as in depth.  I was thinking Insurgents don't fight in a traditional manner yet in this game they do (basically same tactics...build fobs, etc.).   I am wondering at some point if Insurgents will start to think of non-traditional methods (similar to real world) to achieve victory.  The prior post suggest some good mechanisms that would allow the Insurgents to get creative and use that non-traditional edge.   

 

I was thinking next time I play as Insurgent would it be frowned upon to take my squad and try some tactics not in the standard play book (Insurgent like)...would this be frowned upon?

 

Great post and responses. ;)

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I really like this idea. It reminds me of the Command and conquer games were you could capture sectan buildings and get access to unique units or upgrades.

 

It would also give the game much more depth. Witch is a good thing all around.

 

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It's a very intriguing concept that adds a bit of crafting into the building mix, if implemented it will bring Insurgents to a whole new level of awesome. It raises a few concerns, and as I usually do I am going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment (don't get me wrong I think this is one of the best game-play suggestions I've seen on these forums).

 

Knowing PR players we will memorize the locations and rush them to lock them down as Blufor, I hope everything is randomized, meaning spawn locations and items spawned. I feel this would really added to replayability and avoid the old issue of everyone knowing the cache locations and just patrolling around for them instead of getting sucked into a big fight, just switch cache location to supply location. The other issue I have is I feel this may take combatants away from the focus of the map (flags) and have manpower scattered across the map searching for loot like it was DayZ, it may bring more disorganization to a faction that is notorious uncoordinated in INS mode in PR. If there is a mechanic to recover resources from a disable/destroyed vehicle there needs to be a counter, ideally the breacher/specialist can just C4 the vehicle disposing of anything the insurgents might want to get their dirty mitts on.

 

Is it wise to make things slightly more challenging on the logistical side of things for the Insurgents, who keep in mind are meant to be underdogs in the firepower aspect but should have better supply lines. I'm afraid it may also throw the idea of balancing the number of techies available out the window, and instead limit them by the number of resources and time needed to make the fabrication shop.

 

It's a web of coolness that could easily be twisted in the winds of battle, but if it comes to fruition this would be another original mechanic to throw into the mix. As always I fear for balancing issues, but where there is a will there is way.

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I like this idea a lot too!

 

I'd go even further, and suggest that the same items available for collection by the INS should be collectible by BLUFOR also, such as: 

 

** INS may collect destroyed vehicle parts (and use them to improve technicals and create IEDs just like unfrail suggested), from almost all vehicles from BOTH factions, but make it so BLUFOR would lose tickets due to lost assets in case INS capture parts from BLUFOR vehicles

** BLUFOR may also collect these parts, and when they're returned to the main base by means of some transport truck/heli  BLUFOR would gain tickets due to recovered assets.

 

I imagine some possible effects on the gameplay this could create, as every asset taken down would need to be protected by BLUFOR until TRANS squad comes to rescue the parts and take them back to the main base, by means of trucks or helis, or risk loosing more tickets when INS captures the parts. BLUFOR vehicles transporting these recovered assets would be target to INS attacks in the same way, since the recovered parts would still be recoverable from the transporting vehicles too and so on. TRANS squads would have a new role to play on the game beyond transporting soldiers and supplies, and the game would have new goals besides flag capturing or cache/fob destruction.

 

EDIT: thinking even further, that could work both ways since INS team could also have a TRANS squad to recover these items using a civilian truck or car, and they would become targets to BLUFOR for parts rescue too, but in BLUFOR's case the parts would always be taken back to the main base with the goal of gaining tickets, the parts would have any other use for BLUFOR besides that.

 

Perhaps the way vehicles are destroyed should be taken into account, if the amount of damage taken is too high its parts become unusable and unavailable for collecting.

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It's a very intriguing concept that adds a bit of crafting into the building mix, if implemented it will bring Insurgents to a whole new level of awesome. It raises a few concerns, and as I usually do I am going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment (don't get me wrong I think this is one of the best game-play suggestions I've seen on these forums).

 

-snip-

 

Very good counterpoints, and I definitely didnt intend to present a complete consideration for implementation simply because I'm not highly anticipating any immediate likelyhood that any of this will be adopted. I really enjoy what the base building (which could be considered "Structural Crafting") has done for this game, in terms of adding another layer of challenge and path to victory, and thats where this consideration has come from largely.

I think in terms of pre-known locations, there would need to be sufficient possible locations that a systematic check of all of them becomes impractical.

 

Example:

 

map contains

  • 12 structures insurgents could commandeer for an effective "Field Hospital"
  • 12 structures insurgetns could modify into a "Bomb-Workshop"
  • 12 structures insurgents could commandeer into a "Vechicle Fabrication" structure

    complimented by

  • Only enough resources and time to make one of these happen, perhaps 2.

So until the BluFor even see modified Techies rolling out, they have no reason to go gridding possible Garages for Techie Modification structures, compounded by the fact that half of them probably lie in hostile territory. Same said for the other types of structures. Whats more is, as long as they are not bound by locational proximity like current FOB structures, you remove the inevitability of discovery by proximity.

As for recoverable weapons, this idea came from the same concern about "pre-placed" assets, but the solution for randomness is human error. If for example, Humvees have hitboxes for wheels, an RPG could be aimed at disabling a vehicle but not destroying it. BluFor then has the consideration of what assets they leave behind. As Zenrique mentions above, they could potentially recover the hardware for compensation, but at worst, they can secure the loss of tech through destruction. This type of "salvageable" resource I think is the most compelling.

 

Other thoughts I had on this were whether or not opuim fields or hashish fields could have resource values that could be utilized based on their mobility. That idea needs some more time in the oven, but its a "resource" common to facilitating insurgent warfare, so its a possible mechanic.

 

That and the Arms Dealer role that I mentioned above I'll be thinking about for a couple days/weeks. Fun thought explorations.

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I'd love to see anti infantry mines as a commander deployable. They would be so useful in building up a good defense around a FOB (like combining them with razor wire to funnel the enemies movement). I like the idea of a-Symmetric Gameplay and stuff like this would be a real Gamechanger if say it was given to the Insurgent faction only.

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All I will say for now is that we have never intended to have the Insurgent factions operate like the conventional ones. It has been planned for a long time now to have Insurgent "bases" work completely differently than conventional factions. Essentially, you are all testing the slow implementation of the conventional forces "bases" system, eventually you guys will start seeing the Insurgent faction start to deviate from the current formula.

 

Probably around the time of the conventional forces starting to show the more advanced "tiered" and resources system.

 

About time some of you started coming up with some original ideas though. :P We need more of this and less iron sights, ADS, or compass threads.

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[...]

We need more of this and less iron sights, ADS, or compass threads.

omg, so true. :)

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One thing that could bear fruit would be to try to find ways to add existing game features from other non FPS games that could add to Squad's gameplay, like unfrail's resources idea. As long as it fits Squad's theme of teamwork and realism and does not distract players, I'd be all for it.

 

Sometime ago I mentioned jokingly that Squad would define a new niche of MORPFPSG (Multiplayer Online Role Playing First Person Shooting Game), but on the other hand that would not be far from the truth. Adding these mechanisms would actually give players different and specific goals, aligned with their roles and still fit the general gameplay, even more than what BF and PR has done to this day. One good example is the engineer role.

 

The medic system planned for Squad as described in the kickstarter articles is another good example also, where the Squad will have a set of mechanisms that simulate real life precedures (med evac, etc) that add to the gameplay and would reflect in squad tactics, in such a way that players will need to evaluate pros and cons in some situations before acting. Example:

- should we call TRANS squad to rescue the parts of a disabled vehicle and risk being attacked while we defend the area, or should we just C4 it so as to not lose parts to the enemy? Are the tickets gained/lost worth it?

 

This kind of stuff, together with the dynamic construction/destruction of assets (FOB, MG, TOW, etc) IMO is what will set Squad apart from other FPS games and really push the envelope.

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All I will say for now is that we have never intended to have the Insurgent factions operate like the conventional ones. It has been planned for a long time now to have Insurgent "bases" work completely differently than conventional factions. Essentially, you are all testing the slow implementation of the conventional forces "bases" system, eventually you guys will start seeing the Insurgent faction start to deviate from the current formula.

 

Probably around the time of the conventional forces starting to show the more advanced "tiered" and resources system.

 

About time some of you started coming up with some original ideas though. :P We need more of this and less iron sights, ADS, or compass threads.

 

Every time you say inconspicuous things like this, I feel like a kid in a candy shop.  :D

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As for recoverable weapons, this idea came from the same concern about "pre-placed" assets, but the solution for randomness is human error. If for example, Humvees have hitboxes for wheels, an RPG could be aimed at disabling a vehicle but not destroying it. BluFor then has the consideration of what assets they leave behind. As Zenrique mentions above, they could potentially recover the hardware for compensation, but at worst, they can secure the loss of tech through destruction. This type of "salvageable" resource I think is the most compelling.

 

Other thoughts I had on this were whether or not opuim fields or hashish fields could have resource values that could be utilized based on their mobility. That idea needs some more time in the oven, but its a "resource" common to facilitating insurgent warfare, so its a possible mechanic.

 

 

Even if the idea of a workshop type building was never introduced, you could have the vehicle salvage directly tied to unlocking higher tiered insurgency vehicles or mods in game? I'm imagining an engineer type class would be able to run up to a downed vehicle and strip it for resource points which were used specifically by a commander/SL to enable certain vehicle updates?

If they were only accessible in this way you would be enabling the idea of the crash site securing mini game (which sounds awesome) without really adding in too much at this point, and it could then be expanded on later time/dev resources allowing?

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About time some of you started coming up with some original ideas though...

You might get what you ask for.

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