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=CDN= Wehmann

Solution to "Buddy Rally"

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Posted (edited)

Hello Gents.

 

I tend to have watched from the sidelines since backing this project back in its Kickstarter days but have over 1500 hrs with SQUAD and have played every iteration along the way over the years since SQUAD rose from its humble origins spurred on by lovers of the original Mod Project Reality.

 

I have made very few posts over the years but there are many recent changes to the SQUAD gameplay that have all been well documented by the community that have resulted in a more forgiving and casual gameplay, in which I am not a fan of, but am hoping will change over time as feedback comes in and game mechanics develop. I'd like to focus on Buddy Rallys at the moment as I find it has influenced the Meta more negatively than any change implemented to date.

 

Some Solutions I have came up with that might satisfy both "camps":

 

BUDDY RALLY:  Implement Commander Role ASAP.  We have all seen the leeeeeeks of the UAV etc, planned for the commander Role. if its similar to PR than perhaps off map artillery/UAV/Team-wide spawnable Rally/coordination markers.   AND my new suggestion... Have the commander be able to Reset/Detonate/whatever abandoned vehicles that are out in the field and have a kind of penalty attached to that such as ticket loss etc.

 

In summary, Buddy Rally has been referred to by the DEVs as a stop gap measure for allowing teams to be able to stay in the fight when they have been reckless with their vehicles. But having the ability to Radio your Commander, let them know your Squad has been wiped ( which the commander would prob know already ) and have that Troop transport truck be Reset from way out in the field back to main for the Squad. This I find strikes a balance between the "Hardcore/Casual" crowd and would keep the Squad together. And i mean? who doesn't like driving out from Main all together singing "country Road" or having a moment to regroup and talk about how you all died and what to do next ?

 

Having made the above changes, Rally Points could ideally than be reverted back to a Rally that is dropped by the SL and is operational for 60 secs before it disappears again. All of these mechanics promote and in fact force your squad mates to stick together. The game is called SQUAD after all :D

 

Thoughts? Think these changes are already maybe in the works??

Edited by =CDN= Wehmann

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1 hour ago, =CDN= Wehmann said:

  AND my new suggestion... Have the commander be able to Reset/Detonate/whatever abandoned vehicles that are out in the field and have a kind of penalty attached to that such as ticket loss etc.

I also made a similar suggestion already, i think it is at good solution to the taking vehicles "hostage" problem. I support this.

Concerning BR. I believe it was mentioned that BR will be a CO only tool in future with the addition of the CO role and choppers.

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Posted (edited)

So if I strategically take out a vehicle crew and hold the asset hostage there will be a magic "whoops,  do over!" button for them to use? I thought you stated you didn't want it to be forgiving and "casual," but this is literally the direction you just pushed for. They made a mistake by letting me capture their vehicle... they should be punished for it.  If they want it back they can fight my squad for it.

 

 

Edited by Thr34t

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Posted (edited)

Since SQ is going down the road off, "keep it fun for every buddy". Why not? Personally I given up , SQ making a shift towards its spiritual predecessor.

But that is an other story.

 

Taking vehicles hostage, can be a serious problem. I saw it  more then once, teams losing, due losing all  logi trucks in the initial rush, being hold hostage. This proposition can be an solution.

 

Arguing that those assets are valuable and have to be taken care of, or the call for dedicated logi squad are pointless. I am not seeing that happen with the player base SQ has.

 

 

Edited by Axel

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Even a kindergartner could understand that self destroying vehicles and/or automated airstrike destroyable vehicles that you own because of your team's carelessness is the exact opposite of "realism" if you took the time to draw it for them with a crayon.

 

It's still beyond my comprehension how people keep pushing this false narrative that with basically just a few more magical tweaks somehow Squad will became this utopian "realistic" nirvana. It's really quite nonsensical actually.

 

"Real Realism" would consist of a one one life scenario with everyone spawning at Main with a set amount of vehicles, no SciFi teleportation, pretty much any wound whatsoever kills you and the match is over in about 8 minutes. Oh, and btw if you do manage to survive the match you can play again otherwise you're out $40 because your license expired.

 

Needless to say, who on earth besides maybe 100 people would want to play such a video game? So yeah, Squad in its current form is a good compromise across the board between casual and arcade with "realistic" attributes and features where they make sense and Buddy Rallies will suffice as a stop gap measure until something better comes along. Now about that ticket bleed...

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Even a kindergartner could understand that self destroying vehicles and/or automated airstrike destroyable vehicles that you own because of your team's carelessness is the exact opposite of "realism" if you took the time to draw it for them with a crayon.

 

It's still beyond my comprehension how people keep pushing this false narrative that with basically just a few more magical tweaks somehow Squad will became this utopian "realistic" nirvana. It's really quite nonsensical actually.

 

"Real Realism" would consist of a one one life scenario with everyone spawning at Main with a set amount of vehicles, no SciFi teleportation, pretty much any wound whatsoever kills you and the match is over in about 8 minutes. Oh, and btw if you do manage to survive the match you can play again otherwise you're out $40 because your license expired.

 

Needless to say, who on earth besides maybe 100 people would want to play such a video game? So yeah, Squad in its current form is a good compromise across the board between casual and arcade with "realistic" attributes and features where they make sense and Buddy Rallies will suffice as a stop gap measure until something better comes along. Now about that ticket bleed...

 

 

 

I think this would be difficult for most kindergarteners to understand, even when using said crayon.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Thr34t said:

So if I strategically take out a vehicle crew and hold the asset hostage there will be a magic "whoops,  do over!" button for them to use? I thought you stated you didn't want it to be forgiving and "casual," but this is literally the direction you just pushed for. They made a mistake by letting me capture their vehicle... they should be punished for it.  If they want it back they can fight my squad for it.

 

 

 

I'm mostly making this suggestion as a compromise for now. You seem to have misconstrued my meaning, I think vehicles should be able to be camped, you lose them well that's your own fault. It was unforgiving but also interesting to have to take a chopper out or ride in a jeep to go reclaim an asset that you lost and need in enemy territory in PR, But thats the kind of gameplay that emptys some servers and turns the more casual player away in SQUAD. So I attempted to make myself clear in my original post so hopefully that clarifies my stance for you. This is mainly a compromise in the meantime to address these issues which I think further suits SQUAD's origins.

1 hour ago, Axel said:

Since SQ is going down the road off, "keep it fun for every buddy". Why not? Personally I given up , SQ making a shift towards its spiritual predecessor.

But that is an other story.

 

Taking vehicles hostage, can be a serious problem. I saw it  more then once, teams losing, due losing all  logi trucks in the initial rush, being hold hostage. This proposition can be an solution.

 

Arguing that those assets are valuable and have to be taken care of, or the call for dedicated logi squad are pointless. I am not seeing that happen with the player base SQ has.

 

 

 

I agree Axel. but I do see a role for logistics squads depending on how Helicopters are implemented. IF they are effective at moving squads and dropping/ferrying supplies into and out of HABs with Mortars etc than I can see a role for Dedicated logistics/Heli Squads in the future.

 

 

 

Edited by =CDN= Wehmann

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1 hour ago, Thr34t said:

So if I strategically take out a vehicle crew and hold the asset hostage there will be a magic "whoops,  do over!" button for them to use? I thought you stated you didn't want it to be forgiving and "casual," but this is literally the direction you just pushed for. They made a mistake by letting me capture their vehicle... they should be punished for it.  If they want it back they can fight my squad for it.

 

 

I don't think this makes strategic sense. There are 3 infantry squads at any given time. If you take a full Squad to do this, no matter which side you are in this scenario, you will lose the game. I think choosing between tickets and denying a respawn is really weird and videogame-y any way you look at it.

 

Rallies have have drifted away from their original purpose. They get a lot of scrutiny, not all undeserved, but they still have to be good. After v12 the rally is in many respects worse than it was in PR, can't use it to regroup your squad and there's too many scenarios where it's better to spawn FOB instead to the detriment of Squad cohesion. If Rallies get nerfed much further, (relative to FOBs) might as well drop the pretense and remove Squads all together.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Even a kindergartner could understand that self destroying vehicles and/or automated airstrike destroyable vehicles that you own because of your team's carelessness is the exact opposite of "realism" if you took the time to draw it for them with a crayon.

 

It's still beyond my comprehension how people keep pushing this false narrative that with basically just a few more magical tweaks somehow Squad will became this utopian "realistic" nirvana. It's really quite nonsensical actually.

 

"Real Realism" would consist of a one one life scenario with everyone spawning at Main with a set amount of vehicles, no SciFi teleportation, pretty much any wound whatsoever kills you and the match is over in about 8 minutes. Oh, and btw if you do manage to survive the match you can play again otherwise you're out $40 because your license expired.

 

Needless to say, who on earth besides maybe 100 people would want to play such a video game? So yeah, Squad in its current form is a good compromise across the board between casual and arcade with "realistic" attributes and features where they make sense and Buddy Rallies will suffice as a stop gap measure until something better comes along. Now about that ticket bleed...

 

 

 

I dont really see what you added to this conversation at all but thanks for dropping In none the less.

 

"Even a kindergartner could understand that self destroying vehicles and/or automated airstrike destroyable vehicles that you own because of your team's carelessness is the exact opposite of "realism" if you took the time to draw it for them with a crayon."

 

But magically appearing in the middle of the woods on another squads magic bag seems preferable to you? to each their own I suppose, but I do believe that the current Buddy Rally system only further ingrains new player behaviour to spawn at will, wander off and split your squad as a whole.

 

"Real Realism" would consist of a one one life scenario with everyone spawning at Main with a set amount of vehicles, no SciFi teleportation, pretty much any wound whatsoever kills you and the match is over in about 8 minutes. Oh, and btw if you do manage to survive the match you can play again otherwise you're out $40 because your license expired."

 

Nobody mentioned wanting/expecting REAL realism as so wonderfully described by your version. you seemed to have made unrelated criticisms without offering any solutions?

Edited by =CDN= Wehmann

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

Rallies have have drifted away from their original purpose. They get a lot of scrutiny, not all undeserved, but they still have to be good. After v12 the rally is in many respects worse than it was in PR, can't use it to regroup your squad and there's too many scenarios where it's better to spawn FOB instead to the detriment of Squad cohesion. If Rallies get nerfed much further, (relative to FOBs) might as well drop the pretense and remove Squads all together

Exactly. Which is why they could be reverted to their original intent. Require 2-3 SQ mates near SL to REGROUP the squad with a temporary spawn point (RP) away from the enemy. Said RP than disappears after 60secs or is unable to deploy if within certain enemy range. Just as always. This serves the intent of regrouping the squad, making the squad communicate and wait to deploy together and remain together. While my earlier mention of implementing a CO Role now/ASAP to reset/destroy already abandoned vehicles addresses OWI's concern of Squads having to walk from main on foot d/t abandoned vehicles. This change in itself would ensure that Enemy teams wouldn't guard your vehicle anymore as it would be more useful to destroy it. OR better yet, have the ticket cost be slightly higher if a vehicle is chosen to be reset vs camped/destroyed by the enemy.

Edited by =CDN= Wehmann

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Good-Try Greg said:

I don't think this makes strategic sense. There are 3 infantry squads at any given time. If you take a full Squad to do this, no matter which side you are in this scenario, you will lose the game. I think choosing between tickets and denying a respawn is really weird and videogame-y any way you look at it.

 

Rallies have have drifted away from their original purpose. They get a lot of scrutiny, not all undeserved, but they still have to be good. After v12 the rally is in many respects worse than it was in PR, can't use it to regroup your squad and there's too many scenarios where it's better to spawn FOB instead to the detriment of Squad cohesion. If Rallies get nerfed much further, (relative to FOBs) might as well drop the pretense and remove Squads all together.

Doesn't usually take a whole squad unless it is a very important asset that they have to fight for in order to have a chance. Maybe their last logi? Maybe they exited a tank carelessly to repair it? I think instantly hitting the "oops" button is a bit weird and video gamey compared to having the asset be abandoneed until recovered or demod..which is what would happen in real life.

 

 

 

 

Possible fix to rallies: they go away when SL dies.

 

Pros: squads need to stay together to be effective since there is now more emphasis on the well being of the SL, which is kinda realistic. 

 

Cons: SL is now a harder role to play. They are now required play safe.

Edited by Thr34t

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Posted (edited)

How about have the Commander add another vehicle to the main base spawn for X amount of tickets from the team's total ticket pool? No magically dissappearing vehicles, and a cost for careless behaviour in tickets.

Edited by Slavinkje
Grammar and clarity

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2 hours ago, Slavinkje said:

How about have the Commander add another vehicle to the main base spawn for X amount of tickets from the team's total ticket pool? No magically dissappearing vehicles, and a cost for careless behaviour in tickets.

I've read this suggestion before and could see how that could work quite well too. Of course it would take some balancing such as what vehicles could be spawned/how many/how many total etc to avoid overloading the server which i already see as a potential issue to this suggestion.

 

2 hours ago, Thr34t said:

I think instantly hitting the "oops" button is a bit weird and video gamey compared to having the asset be abandoneed until recovered or demod..which is what would happen in real life.

Well having a vehicle that you are camping such as a logi or BMP that explodes out of nowhere ("oops" button as mentioned above) would fit your demoing scenario. We are just regular INF after all. Spec ops just C4'd it without you seeing. :ph34r:

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Posted (edited)

Tbh I don't even know if I agree with the whole idea of having the ability to replace abandoned vehicles during the match at all. It sounds to me that in such a case too many risks were taken and the opposite team deserves to win. Learn from it and next game don't take so many risks. But IF such a mechanic were implemented I would only see it being fairly implemented if the Commander gets the ability to replace 1 SUPPLY vehicle (so no MBT's, no IFV's, no MRAPS, literally nothing but 1 Supply truck) for X amount of tickets every 30 minutes. If you manage to waste that vehicle as well you're really just a team of idiots that deserves what's coming to you and you'll be ****ed for at least another 30 minutes or until the game ends.

Edited by Slavinkje

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i have no issue whatsoever with the idea of the enemy 'taking your vehicles hostage' (or outright stealing them).
 

On 07/08/2019 at 4:09 AM, =CDN= Wehmann said:

But having the ability to Radio your Commander, let them know your Squad has been wiped ( which the commander would prob know already ) and have that Troop transport truck be Reset from way out in the field back to main for the Squad.

do not agree with this idea: this appears to be similar, in principle, to the BR's (or RP's in general), ie: lets help the incompetent.

as you bracketed; if the Commander is awake and breathing he should not have to be told - he should see everything - that's the whole point of the role. a magic reset of vehicles by god-like Commander? the first thing this would achieve is to remove the value placed upon the vehicles, as assets.

 

an Abandon function (this does not yet exist) would be required before you can allow the Commander to reset the vehicle, other wise it could be misused.

 

why does the game need to compensate for peoples ineptitude? you make the mistake, you pay the penalty.

 

On 07/08/2019 at 9:01 AM, Thr34t said:

I think instantly hitting the "oops" button is a bit weird and video gamey compared to having the asset be abandoneed until recovered or demod..

yep, agreed.

On 07/08/2019 at 9:01 AM, Thr34t said:

Possible fix to rallies: they go away when SL dies

heh, yeah, sounds interesting ;) . the only probs is it might make the SL turn into the SL from BF's (ie: hide-the-SL-and-spawn-on-him meta), or it might not, but it would be interesting to see how many peeps would loose their **** over it.

 

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The general discussion here is about buddy rallies and abandoned vehicles. How about remove buddy rallies but make logi and transport a limited squad rally point. Only allow 2x players to spawn on it but that resets every 5 mins.

 

In the case of a squad wipe and lost rally two squad member could retrieve the vehicle and bring it back to a fob or agreed meeting point with the rest of the squad. It's a way of keeping vehicles in play but by restricting the amount of spawns available stops them becoming a fall back rally point and troop supply line. A squad leader could spawn at the vehicle and put down a fresh rally there or move the vehicle to another location. The commander should also have the ability to assign an inactive vehicle claim to another squad so they could spawn someone there and redeploy it.

 

This is definitely something I'd like to see if only to find out how players will exploit it's mechanics and see if it's a viable alternative to buddy rallies and commanded destroyed vehicles.

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4 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

do not agree with this idea: this appears to be similar, in principle, to the BR's (or RP's in general), ie: lets help the incompetent.

as you bracketed; if the Commander is awake and breathing he should not have to be told - he should see everything - that's the whole point of the role. a magic reset of vehicles by god-like Commander? the first thing this would achieve is to remove the value placed upon the vehicles, as assets.

 

an Abandon function (this does not yet exist) would be required before you can allow the Commander to reset the vehicle, other wise it could be misused.

 

why does the game need to compensate for peoples ineptitude? you make the mistake, you pay the penalty.

You seem to be convinced that I disagree with everything you just wrote above? Or that I am for some reason in favor of this gamey solution vs the more unforgiving alternative that we have had previously in development ? but if you read any of the above responses you would see we are discussing a solution to Buddy Rally's and their current implementation in relation to abandoned vehicles, which in my opinion is more game wrecking, than any kind of vehicle reset feature. But if you think they are going to revert these changes or prefer to keep Buddy Rally's in? I don't really know how else to respond to your comments because I fail to see any solution or thoughts brought forward? I think we would both like to see the same kind of PR game play and experience likely, but I'm trying to brainstorm on ideas and ways to make some of these more gamey changes be reverted or tweaked before Beta. :D

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Major Trouble said:

The general discussion here is about buddy rallies and abandoned vehicles. How about remove buddy rallies but make logi and transport a limited squad rally point. Only allow 2x players to spawn on it but that resets every 5 mins.

 

In the case of a squad wipe and lost rally two squad member could retrieve the vehicle and bring it back to a fob or agreed meeting point with the rest of the squad. It's a way of keeping vehicles in play but by restricting the amount of spawns available stops them becoming a fall back rally point and troop supply line. A squad leader could spawn at the vehicle and put down a fresh rally there or move the vehicle to another location. The commander should also have the ability to assign an inactive vehicle claim to another squad so they could spawn someone there and redeploy it.

 

This is definitely something I'd like to see if only to find out how players will exploit it's mechanics and see if it's a viable alternative to buddy rallies and commanded destroyed vehicles.

 

How are they going to check if the vehicle is really abandoned though?

 

No friendlies within x m? Nice, a spawn behind enemy lines.

No enemies within x m? Giving away intel on enemy movement. (If it's on a relevant flag or near an enemy fob).

 

Easiest and least exploitable way is a destruction timer. Just not sure about the conditions.

Within active fob range it shouldn't expire.

Your vehicle expires and you lose tickets. But you do get it back, with a penalty of ticket loss.

 

*I remember a way of vehicle claim expiring from planetside 2, where if you leave your vehicle, even near friendlies it would have a 20m timer and then just be claimable by evry player unless someone got it.

Maybe a 10m timer on a vehicle outside fob range where you need to get in and out to reset. Show the timer on the map counting down so you can see wich vehicles are affected.

 

 

 

Edited by oTec

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1 hour ago, Major Trouble said:

The general discussion here is about buddy rallies and abandoned vehicles. How about remove buddy rallies but make logi and transport a limited squad rally point. Only allow 2x players to spawn on it but that resets every 5 mins.

 

In the case of a squad wipe and lost rally two squad member could retrieve the vehicle and bring it back to a fob or agreed meeting point with the rest of the squad. It's a way of keeping vehicles in play but by restricting the amount of spawns available stops them becoming a fall back rally point and troop supply line. A squad leader could spawn at the vehicle and put down a fresh rally there or move the vehicle to another location. The commander should also have the ability to assign an inactive vehicle claim to another squad so they could spawn someone there and redeploy it.

 

This is definitely something I'd like to see if only to find out how players will exploit it's mechanics and see if it's a viable alternative to buddy rallies and commanded destroyed vehicles.

I think something could be built off of these ideas surely, but personally I'm hesitant about any idea that promotes teleporting and removes the necessity of traveling safely and holding ground. Buddy Rally's have already degraded and removed the intensity of maintaining your front line Spawn points.

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8 minutes ago, oTec said:

How are they going to check if the vehicle is really abandoned though?

We can already claim inactive, unused vehicles. Surely we can allow a commander to be able to requisition one for another squad. A commander could assign one say from squad A to squad B and the SL + 1 spawn there and immediately put down a rally. In effect it would simulate a buddy rally instance but not directly on another squads rally that is presumably closer to the front line. If makes vehicles even more important and something to hide from the enemy.

5 minutes ago, =CDN= Wehmann said:

I think something could be built off of these ideas surely, but personally I'm hesitant about any idea that promotes teleporting and removes the necessity of traveling safely and holding ground.

We already have teleporting in the form of rallies and FOBs. I don't really want to play a game where we have to restart at main all the time though. OWI are obviously trying to appease the crowd who don't want to be far from the action by including buddy rallies but they've removed tactical style of play that many want to see in Squad. I think having a limited mobile spawn point in the form of logi & transport (transport only?) cuts a middle ground that could work.

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If we all have buddy rally points why do we need a HAB just for assets and ammo just make a FOB.

The solution for buddy rally point is to take the option off completely.

I do not like it all as it forgives you or your SL the position he put it on and if the enemy took it out.

This game of ours started to forgive players for many bad calls thy made.And thats not the point of this game.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bahrein said:

If we all have buddy rally points why do we need a HAB just for assets and ammo just make a FOB.

The solution for buddy rally point is to take the option off completely.

I do not like it all as it forgives you or your SL the position he put it on and if the enemy took it out.

This game of ours started to forgive players for many bad calls thy made.And thats not the point of this game.

 

Have to agree. Obviously I find myself using it in the game, but it's a far too easy solution. I think it speeds up games as well which you can take as a positive or negative based on personal preference, but I would personally prefer slower gameplay. Looking at statements from the devs earlier in the development process it sounded like they wanted more drawn out firefights. I think it was a statement regarding adding the suppression system at the time but imho the current rally system goes against that goal if it is still one of the objectives since it enables squads to quickly jump in to help another squad out in a firefight and overwhelm the opposition.

Edited by Slavinkje

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If we gonna have them, I say squads should be allowed to buddy rally only once per game (like playing a 'joker').

 

That way it becomes a tactical asset which adds to the game as the SL will have to think carefully about when to do so. It would go some way to alleviating mistakes and long walks - but only once. Maybe ask commander for permission / approval too if necessary as an extra power for them. But once it's gone, it's gone.

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@=CDN= Wehmann: i just disagree with the "oops button" thing, that's all. sorry if i rambled or wasn't clear.

 

21 hours ago, oTec said:

 

How are they going to check if the vehicle is really abandoned though?

 

No friendlies within x m? Nice, a spawn behind enemy lines.

No enemies within x m? Giving away intel on enemy movement. (If it's on a relevant flag or near an enemy fob).

 

Easiest and least exploitable way is a destruction timer. Just not sure about the conditions.

Within active fob range it shouldn't expire.

Your vehicle expires and you lose tickets. But you do get it back, with a penalty of ticket loss.

 

*I remember a way of vehicle claim expiring from planetside 2, where if you leave your vehicle, even near friendlies it would have a 20m timer and then just be claimable by evry player unless someone got it.

Maybe a 10m timer on a vehicle outside fob range where you need to get in and out to reset. Show the timer on the map counting down so you can see wich vehicles are affected.

 

 

 

that's why i said an abandon function is needed for the vehicles; that includes the trigger volume and logic, including a timer to destroy the vehicle for respawn. (i'm trying to do exactly this but need access to the vehicle Parents to do anything)

within FOB deactivates the function, agreed.

good idea about the tickets too.

 

PS2 used the same gameplay as JointOps, basically, which is where that function was born, i believe.

in JO it was a 30m radius (i think), after 3 - 5 minutes (i think), then destroy. yes, you (or the enemy) could reset the timer. they also went neutral after about a minute, i think, unless within a zone (vehicles reverted to Zone Owner, after a delay).

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Devs said they had metrics which they use to balance the game. Buddy rally was here long enough to collect the effect values on what was attempted to archive with it. Would be interesting to see them, unfortunately devs don't have a habit of showing such.

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