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Nightingale87

DEAD-DEAD VS INSTA DEATH

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I think a point has to be made clear about these two. Many people think it´s the same thing. On the other hand, many people are asking for an extra harsh INSTA DEATH mechanic, while not even mentioning DEAD-DEAD.

 

Very quickly: 

 

INSTA-DEATH: getting shot or hit by sharpnel or explosión (specific áreas, head-shot, etc) And you are DEAD. No revive posible. Respawn screen.

 

DEAD- DEAD MECHANIC: You get shot. You are DOWN. NOT DEAD, but down. You can wait for a medic or a mate to revive you. Now, after revival, there is a timer (used to be 60 seconds) within which if you get shot again, you are EFFECTIVELY DEAD, or DEAD DEAD. No revive posible. Respawn screen.

 

They are two very different things. And both can be implemented correctly. For some reason (business oriented reasons perhaps?) DEAD DEAD was removed in v13 and INSTA DEATH was drastically changed.

 

The most important one (in my opinion) is DEAD DEAD mechanic. Why?

 

Well, if you get shot and are down, the fact that somebody can help you will encourage teamwork. Squads that staty together will have an advantage (Specially with a medic).

What´s more, if after being revived, you know that you will be punished with DEAD DEAD if you get shot again (in 60 secs) making suppression a thing, conservative and life preserving tactics more valuable. 

 

INSTA DEATH is important, making high caliber MEAN A LOT. Which is necessary, but It shouldn´t be abused. 

What I mean is, Having a 5 second revive window when hit by IED is IRRELEVANT. 

A very punishing INSTA DEATH MECHANIC will only break squads up, since people dying often wihtout possibility of revive will be respawning all the time.

Edited by Nightingale87

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Dead dead makes players slow down, carefully consider next step and play defensively until timer is up. This affect the squad in whole, or punish with tickets and forced respawns if ignored, encourages to secure and cover during revives. Yoloing becomes less viable option. Dead dead is what makes you afraid of recklessly suicidIng just to expose enemy position, because you can get revived after anyway. 

A year with buddy rally degraded community in ability to act strategically in sense of respawns, as it have become obvious after it came back.
A year without dead dead made players a little bit more run and gun COD like players instead of attempting to stay alive over yoloing to get another kill.

"Decreased bleedout timer" is bullshit and pretty much non-existent factor in current implementation, either it's not working at all or restores too fast, and doesn't replaces the functionality of dead dead.

Edited by paragonid

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And also: When you for example eats a tank round and hear half the explosion before everything i silent and you are in spawn screen.. That feeling when the intense firefight is abruptly ended and you know that you just got your ass served... We should have more of that.

 

Incapacitated players should btw not be able to provide intel to the team, it should be a black screen with no sound.

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21 minutes ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Incapacitated players should btw not be able to provide intel to the team, it should be a black screen with no sound.

Thought of this before, I have love hate for this idea because some clans use other means to communicate ex. Discord. So the intel is still going to be shared. Edit: Better to just leave it on so that everyone is on the same playingfield.

Edited by Sgt.Hiccups

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27 minutes ago, Pluto is a planet said:

And also: When you for example eats a tank round and hear half the explosion before everything i silent and you are in spawn screen.. That feeling when the intense firefight is abruptly ended and you know that you just got your ass served... We should have more of that.

 

Incapacitated players should btw not be able to provide intel to the team, it should be a black screen with no sound.

 

6 minutes ago, Sgt.Hiccups said:

Thought of this before, I have love hate for this idea because some clans use other means to communicate ex. Discord. So the intel is still going to be shared. Edit: Better to just leave it on so that everyone is on the same playingfield.

The best solution is to include a 15-20 seconds mute timer on an incapacited player. HE can´t hear anything, he can´t say anything.

 

PROS. You are not allowed to pass Intel. Not even to say "Im down" you have the new "call medic" for that. Specially when somebody gets knifed from behind. he cant just Yell "enemy just knifed me!" making the whole squad to turn to the exact position and shoot the comando guy. Knife should be a stealthy tactic and the mute timer would help that.

 

CONS: Well, basically competitive gameplay. Players that play competitively with a clan can still use a 3rd Paty communication software and still be able to communicate. Still, if they can´t hear anything, then what they can say is not that accurate.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sgt.Hiccups said:

Thought of this before, I have love hate for this idea because some clans use other means to communicate ex. Discord. So the intel is still going to be shared. Edit: Better to just leave it on so that everyone is on the same playingfield.

Everyone can talk to his teammates, but if you cannot see or hear anything its hard to provide intel. You can of course tell them how you got killed, but you cant see or hear enemies when you are down.

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7 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Everyone can talk to his teammates, but if you cannot see or hear anything its hard to provide intel. You can of course tell them how you got killed, but you cant see or hear enemies when you are down.

I like that idea, but to shut off in-game VoIP would just make people work around it by using other means of coms.

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16 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Incapacitated players should btw not be able to provide intel to the team, it should be a black screen with no sound.

agreed (except voip ch's, o'c).

 

this forum is about the only place i can recall ever seeing/hearing-of the term Dead-Dead and i could never understand why people use it.

in every instance above, the words Dead-Dead either refer to the state of being alive between Incap and Dead - which makes no sense, or can be replaced with just a single 'Dead'. there is no Dead-Dead mechanic.

 

INCAP mechanic:

- take damage down to zero HP's = Incapacitated ... (no revive before bleed(s) timer is out = Dead.)

* you loose all 100 HP's you go Incap > while Incap you lose HP's until the Bleed(s) reach -300HP >  = Dead.

 

DEAD mechanic:

- get Incapacitated again within 60sec. of revive = Dead.

- get head-shot/knifed ("insta-death") = Dead.

 

Incapacitated = recoverable by medic.

Dead = non-recoverable - must re-spawn.

 

i don't have access to anything beyond the latest (v17?) SDK.

 

 

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5 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

agreed (except voip ch's, o'c).

 

this forum is about the only place i can recall ever seeing/hearing-of the term Dead-Dead and i could never understand why people use it.

in every instance above, the words Dead-Dead either refer to the state of being alive between Incap and Dead - which makes no sense, or can be replaced with just a single 'Dead'. there is no Dead-Dead mechanic.

 

INCAP mechanic:

- take damage down to zero HP's = Incapacitated ... (no revive before bleed(s) timer is out = Dead.)

* you loose all 100 HP's you go Incap > while Incap you lose HP's until the Bleed(s) reach -300HP >  = Dead.

 

DEAD mechanic:

- get Incapacitated again within 60sec. of revive = Dead.

- get head-shot/knifed ("insta-death") = Dead.

 

Incapacitated = recoverable by medic.

Dead = non-recoverable - must re-spawn.

 

i don't have access to anything beyond the latest (v17?) SDK.

 

 

Dead-dead is something that comes from PR.

 

It was a very informal quick easily understandable way to tel your squad mates that you couldnt be revived and you had to spawn back.

 

There was always some confussion when somebody said he was "wounded". It was a bit ambiguous and people didnt understand if you were bleeding but still able to move and shoot, or "incapacitated".

 

 

The point of this thread was to ilustrate the BIG difference between the two mechanics.

 

 

Dead-Dead, or "insta death by dead-dead" is a mechanic that gives you a time frame after you are revived from the "incapacitated" state during which if you are shot again, you go straight to "dead" (dead-dead) skipping a new "incpacitated" state.

 

This mechanic is essential and it´s a shame that it was removed. It made people much more careful about dying. After one was shot, he had to take cover and wait for a minute before he could pop his head because he was risking being "dead-dead" thus giving the enemy initiative by reducing the amount of firepower the squad could bring.

 

Insta-death:  is a mechanic by which a player goes from being healthy and futhing to "dead", skipping the "wounded/incapacitated/ state from being hit by a high caliber bullet in vital areas, or close to IED, or close to HE.

In my opinion this mechanic should exist but should be kept to a mínimum. Squad does it too often. I like it becaus eit adds variety and makes people respect certain offensive capabilities the enemy has, but if abused, game becomes a bit arcady, squads lose cohesion, and doesnt really make people value their lives much more.

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Quite a few versions back had a obnoxiously high respawn timer for giving up whilst incapacitated. All this did was encourage people to go afk to make a sandwich, have a quick smoke or even take the dog out for a crap. Seriously. More than a few times I've had people tell me that when you'd ask them where they went.

 

So yeah, this is not a feature you want in any video game imho. That said, there does need to be a punishment method in a game where supposedly life has value and you're expected to wait for a medic. However, currently there is no such mechanic.

 

In the current version it still rewards the team that plays footloose and fancy free with their respawning because they can still have zero medics and just shooters flash mobbing the point. It's honestly quite obnoxious that a supposedly tactical game can be played like an old school Conquest shooter with successful results.

 

Case in point, a match on Friday evening on Yeho the one tryhard squad that kept pushing all the flags off of nothing but rally points eventually won us the match by around 60 tickets but the SL went 9/23 with the rest of his squad having similar k/D's. Then the guy is bragging about how he is "best squad"... Honestly he wasn't wrong on one hand however is that how a "tactical" game is supposed to work? I don't think so but what do I know?

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13 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Case in point, a match on Friday evening on Yeho the one tryhard squad that kept pushing all the flags off of nothing but rally points eventually won us the match by around 60 tickets but the SL went 9/23 with the rest of his squad having similar k/D's. Then the guy is bragging about how he is "best squad"... Honestly he wasn't wrong on one hand however is that how a "tactical" game is supposed to work? I don't think so but what do I know?

Exactly.

 

Thing is...I think you cant avoid this...without this...

 

13 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Quite a few versions back had a obnoxiously high respawn timer for giving up whilst incapacitated. All this did was encourage people to go afk to make a sandwich, have a quick smoke or even take the dog out for a crap. Seriously. More than a few times I've had people tell me that when you'd ask them where they went.

 

Can´t have one without the other. At least a right proportion can be found. But some people Will always find any respawn timer too long… even 1 minute.

 

Now. What you can´t have is a successful videogame that sells a lot of copies. But of course you can have a videogame like that. Of course, without all the exageration in your example. 

 

Now, the videogame has to be successful so I can have my "boring im gonna have a sándwich because I died" mod that I want so much. So …. I know that wont change much in vanilla.

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8 hours ago, Covalent said:

doesn't matter, devs don't care about this forum and don't listen to its users

 

Yes, they do.

 

It takes them time. A long time to address some issues. But they do. 

 

Of course the wont do exactly what you want fi what you want will make them lose money. But they do listen to the community.

 

Now, the problem is the community in SQUAD is not homogenous.

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12 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

Yes, they do.

 

It takes them time. A long time to address some issues. But they do. 

 

Of course the wont do exactly what you want fi what you want will make them lose money. But they do listen to the community.

 

Now, the problem is the community in SQUAD is not homogenous.

 

yeah true call of duty makes a lot of money, lets make the game that

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Posted (edited)

What do people think about the respawn system in Project Reality? The more frequently you gave up (Dead dead) the longer your spawn timer became. I think it added something like 15 seconds every time a player gave up in order to give more value to a life, since dying repeatedly made you have to wait longer and longer for a respawn. Maybe Squad could even go a step further and increase the ticket cost every time you give up? Thoughts?

 

See Jevski's post below.

Edited by Dufflespud
Incorrect info

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Dufflespud said:

What do people think about the respawn system in Project Reality? The more frequently you gave up (Dead dead) the longer your spawn timer became. I think it added something like 15 seconds every time a player gave up in order to give more value to a life, since dying repeatedly made you have to wait longer and longer for a respawn. Maybe Squad could even go a step further and increase the ticket cost every time you give up? Thoughts?

Wrong.

From the manual.

 

A player's respawn time is at least 45 seconds and at most 60 seconds plus temporary penalties. Time spent while waiting for a medic is subtracted from that time. Once a player dies he has to wait at least 5 seconds before spawning. These actions influence the respawn time:

  • Player death: +3s

  • Capturing CP or destroying objective: -3s

  • Doing a defensive action: -1s

  • Squad built forward outpost: -10s

A temporary spawn time penalty which only affects the next time you die (building up to 5 minutes) is added by these actions:

  • Teamkill: 15 seconds per teamkill

  • Suicide: 15 seconds

  • Civilian getting captured: 90 seconds

  • Civilian killed violating ROE: 120 seconds per civilian

  • Own weapons cache destroyed: 300 seconds

Edited by Jevski

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@Jevski I stand corrected. Thank you for doing the research that I should have done.

 

That being said, I am a big fan of these respawn mechanics. Has there been any discussion as to why Squad doesn't use them?

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2 hours ago, Dufflespud said:

@Jevski I stand corrected. Thank you for doing the research that I should have done.

 

That being said, I am a big fan of these respawn mechanics. Has there been any discussion as to why Squad doesn't use them?

Because the people who have a say in the market are getting younger and younger and this audience doesn´t like waiting. And they have to sell the game.

No problema with that. Just they should provide with Server settings for varios options or a hardcore mod,...which Will soon come.

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3 hours ago, Dufflespud said:

@Jevski I stand corrected. Thank you for doing the research that I should have done.

 

That being said, I am a big fan of these respawn mechanics. Has there been any discussion as to why Squad doesn't use them?

These rules serve PR well, but they aren't like a pillar of PR's design. PR wouldn't let you spawn directly into combat in the first place, so never dying was a realistic goal. I don't think it's a realistic goal for Squad, so this rule wouldn't hold the same significance.

 

My concern with the spawn timer approach is that it I don't think it's as simple as longer respawn = slower pacing. When the 30m overrun was added, players responded by centralizing their FOBs so each FOB was better defended (and spawnable). Rather than pushing the FOBs away from the point, it only increased the amount of bodies FOBs required, which hurt squad tactics and made FOB strategy much more complicated. I don't see why you couldn't also further centralize your spawns more to make up for any reduction in manpower that longer respawn times would bring. So that's one way this wouldn't necessarily work as intended.

 

Squad would be better served by nerfing the spawn points directly, at least to the level where infantry have to take a reinforcement route from somewhere after dying rather than spawn directly into the front. That's not even a PR thing really, most games already work like that.

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8 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

These rules serve PR well, but they aren't like a pillar of PR's design. PR wouldn't let you spawn directly into combat in the first place, so never dying was a realistic goal. I don't think it's a realistic goal for Squad, so this rule wouldn't hold the same significance.

 

My concern with the spawn timer approach is that it I don't think it's as simple as longer respawn = slower pacing. When the 30m overrun was added, players responded by centralizing their FOBs so each FOB was better defended (and spawnable). Rather than pushing the FOBs away from the point, it only increased the amount of bodies FOBs required, which hurt squad tactics and made FOB strategy much more complicated. I don't see why you couldn't also further centralize your spawns more to make up for any reduction in manpower that longer respawn times would bring. So that's one way this wouldn't necessarily work as intended.

 

Squad would be better served by nerfing the spawn points directly, at least to the level where infantry have to take a reinforcement route from somewhere after dying rather than spawn directly into the front. That's not even a PR thing really, most games already work like that.

Correct, sir.

 

I would add that not only dying holds no significance, but, a player that didn´t die the whole round but stayed in the peripheria of the cap, is MUCH LESS USEFUL than a player that died 10+ times spawning and running and gunning every time into the cap.

 

Virtually, a player with no microphone can just join a SQUAD, pick a rifleman and just keep running into the cap and that would be productive!!!!….

 

I´m convinced. Squad is no longer a hybrid of casual/milsim. It´s only CASUAL.

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On 12/30/2019 at 11:34 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Quite a few versions back had a obnoxiously high respawn timer for giving up whilst incapacitated. All this did was encourage people to go afk to make a sandwich, have a quick smoke or even take the dog out for a crap. Seriously. More than a few times I've had people tell me that when you'd ask them where they went.

 

So yeah, this is not a feature you want in any video game imho. That said, there does need to be a punishment method in a game where supposedly life has value and you're expected to wait for a medic. However, currently there is no such mechanic.

How about if you give up during bleed out you can only spawn at main. If you bleed out you have all the options available as it is now. I think the bleed out timer needs adjusting for this mechanic though.

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On 12/31/2019 at 1:16 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Yes, they do.

 

=)

 

Yep, reading along and passing along feedback. We're coming out of our slumber from the winter break, but we're catching up on feedback. Bear with us. =)

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if anyone knows how to re-impliment the setting(s) for creating 'insta-death', for headshot or knife, i'd love to know as i really want it in my mod.

 

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