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Posted (edited)

Better late then never....from your longest standing fan and player. Also posted on Reddit as a respons. 

 

I sympathize with some in Opening Post. Sad to re...

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/cg251r/my_comment_on_from_a_veteran_casual/eug63oq?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

 

I'm a founder with +3000 hours and for the first time experiencing a loss of appetite for game. I am a comp player in Mumblerines and an old PR player. Played both games from very first versions. Think I have a solid reference base to debate from. 

 

Buddy RP is my main gripe.
That a fragmented team, at any given time, can come together as a full team from any individual fragments angle. 
That should be enough said really to convey how unsuitable this change is for gameplay.

 

Yes it does puts players faster back in action, in general. 
But at what cost!?

Both new game modes TC and Destruction are from my standpoint broken. You can't plan for nme movement in a logical way. A full team can appear anywhere, at any time really. We have outplayed many teams now just jumping RPs. That actually makes for less fighting those games. And the chees sensation is real. 

 

A clanmate described it best.

"TC with BRP is kinda hard to maintain properly atm... cuz its so easy to change the flow, when you finally managed to make progress and push somewhere, and while you're capping just one HEX , full team appears out of no where (read BRP) and just throws you back and makes all your effort vain. Making big TC layers 1.5+ hours long"

 

A light save in pubbing is that BRP is not exploited more.
It's not intuitive so new SLs don't use them fully.
Some refuse to use them out of morale reasons. Love that.
However, it will catch on. 

 

Also worth mentioning:

Who needs FOBs when we have buddy RP? 

- But you only get three mags and a bandage (as a minimum)! 

*Stopped no one ever from capping a flag or digging down a radio. THE objectives.

 

For comp I predict it will be devastating. For my enjoyment if nothing else. It will be played, it will have action, but it will be dumb. 
Jumping flags with teams via BRP. It is truly unearned ground.
Driving out with a logi and building is earned ground. And you can't abandon a FOB without the risk of losing tickets, as you can with a RP. It's a gamble, an investment with a FOB.

 

DEVs have spent so much resources on creating buildable assets, and now we use them even less. Don't get it.


That would have been my preference of approach towards fixing what BRP was intended for, and did fix to be fair. 
Promote FOB use with tricks and securing that there always is a transportation vehicle in main. Gained the same but not lost what we have done. 

 

Second gripe would be the visual aspect of sped up movement. I now get a Benny Hill sensation. Didn't like that show so the reminiscence is unwelcome hehe. 


Don't mind at all top speed traversing between flags.
But take a few rested players close to each other moving around and you'll see what I mean. 


Shooting at zig zag nme with penguin syndrome (leaning left/right) at ranges coupled with the desynch and the hitreg issues makes for a bad experience in my view.

Disclaimer, I only game. I know little to nothing about how this stuff affects each other from a programming standpoint. 

 

Hipfire. Now good even at ranges. I don't ADS nowhere even close to what I used to have to do. Not a fan but not the end of the world either. 

 

Concerning voices about deaddead headshots. 
I would not be in favour of deaddead headshots with current shooting mechanics. Not even sure I'd be in favour of it with any shooting mechanics that doesn't require mastering sway.
Yes, DD HS was a thing in PR but that doesn't automatically translate for what is best for Squad. 

 

Infinitive revives. Not a fan as is. Dying should have consequences.
Many ways to go about that. Have no set preferences, but have ideas. Can debate more on demand. 

 

On a personal note. 
Motherdears (iirc) big Reddit letter, with all DEVs standing behind it, and the declaration of intended gameplay, a year or so back.
It is hard not to feel a little cheated with the above mentioned changes and this new path taken. 

 

With regards, your village elder Mel.

 

*all respectful comments are welcome and appreciated.

Edited by Mellanbror
Added a little.

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+1 To everything...

 

But +10 to this...

 

1 hour ago, Mellanbror said:

On a personal note. 

Motherdears (iirc) big Reddit letter, with all DEVs standing behind it, and the declaration of intended gameplay, a year or so back.
It is hard not to feel a little cheated with the above mentioned changes and this new path taken.

 

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look, there are more players and sales go up, you are vocal unhappy minority, most of the people love the changes and they don't even have a mic or keyboard to complain, squad is commercial product and money money money

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, paragonid said:

look, there are more players and sales go up, you are vocal unhappy minority, most of the people love the changes and they don't even have a mic or keyboard to complain, squad is commercial product and money money money

Sales are going up yes. Game is getting more complete. That is all that means. 

Awesome content has been added and many bug fixes has been made. I'm also happy with that aspect. 

 

I talk with alot of players, it is not my perception we are a minority, not one at a size that can be ignored anyways.  In fact, the entire community roundtables advised against BRP. Even if some polls would show that e g BRP is liked. Who and when in a version cycle polls are taken matter.

You will get voters not knowing other options, or even have a reference point from the past. 

Edited by Mellanbror

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21 hours ago, paragonid said:

look, there are more players and sales go up, you are vocal unhappy minority, most of the people love the changes and they don't even have a mic or keyboard to complain, squad is commercial product and money money money

Then how do you know they like the changes???

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On 22/07/2019 at 6:32 PM, paragonid said:

 most of the people love the changes

Yup, most people love action-packed, brainless online FPS games, but most of us (vocal minority member here) really believed Squad wasn't going to end up as another one.

 

This "vocal unhappy minority" thing needs to go. The vocal minorities generally consist of people passionate enough about the game to invest their own time and resources to make it better, if by nothing else than at least discussing it on a public forum and pointing out flaws. This passion and engagement alone is reason enough not to dismiss our voices just because "duh, there are less of you".

 

Squad was started by people who were in minority compared to the current FPS developers. From the beginning it was framed as a niche, exceptional game and let's not forget it was funded by players who wanted an experience that wasn't available in the mainstream shooters. Without the people who now mostly stand in the "vocal minority" crowd we wouldn't be here arguing about what's best for the game in the first place.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MultiSquid said:

Yup, most people love action-packed, brainless online FPS games, but most of us (vocal minority member here) really believed Squad wasn't going to end up as another one.

 

This "vocal unhappy minority" thing needs to go. The vocal minorities generally consist of people passionate enough about the game to invest their own time and resources to make it better, if by nothing else than at least discussing it on a public forum and pointing out flaws. This passion and engagement alone is reason enough not to dismiss our voices just because "duh, there are less of you".

 

Squad was started by people who were in minority compared to the current FPS developers. From the beginning it was framed as a niche, exceptional game and let's not forget it was funded by players who wanted an experience that wasn't available in the mainstream shooters. Without the people who now mostly stand in the "vocal minority" crowd we wouldn't be here arguing about what's best for the game in the first place.

Please without trying to sound flippant and condescending doesn't it seem somewhat ironic that the actual Project Reality team has been languishing in mediocrity basically doing very little to nothing to create their own stand alone version of PR2? I mean if there was so much demand for this utopian game you guys wax nostalgic so much about where is this "engagement and passion" you speak of over at the Project Reality website?

 

I mean at least the folks at OWI chose to hang it all out, some probably quitting wage slave type jobs to follow their passion but all I see over there at realitymod.com is an update from March 2019 with a heavily pixelated picture of an old Sherman tank for some other tired old mod they're working on using that same obsolete refractor engine. Again, Wikipedia makes some mention of PR2 development with Cryengine but it's all unsubstantiated information and rumors it looks like.

 

So yeah, I'd politely ask you wouldn't logic dictate that of all people the existing Project Reality team would be ones to make the actual real sequel if there was so much demand for it?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zylfrax791

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Please without trying to sound flippant and condescending doesn't it seem somewhat ironic that the actual Project Reality team has been languishing in mediocrity basically doing very little to nothing to create their own stand alone version of PR2? I mean if there was so much demand for this utopian game you guys wax nostalgic so much about where is this "engagement and passion" you speak of over at the Project Reality website?

???

What a weird comment!

 

Why would they? Do you think they go around looking for PR mods to créate in every videogame??? 

 

You have a very strange visión of what PR is. Not surprising since you haven´t played it.

 

They have their own game. Which is still running. Maybe that´s the reason they are not rushing to make one: THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE.

 

They might, one day...do it. Or not. There´s nothing mediocre about it. 

 

You do sound flippant. Thought not condescending….just lost .

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2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

???

What a weird comment!

 

Why would they? Do you think they go around looking for PR mods to créate in every videogame??? 

 

You have a very strange visión of what PR is. Not surprising since you haven´t played it.

 

They have their own game. Which is still running. Maybe that´s the reason they are not rushing to make one: THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE.

 

They might, one day...do it. Or not. There´s nothing mediocre about it. 

 

You do sound flippant. Thought not condescending….just lost .

If that's the case then why did all you guys turn your back on them, jump ship to the tune of nearly half a million dollars on the misguided expectation that you were getting a PR clone? And not only that now that the game has evolved into something infinitely more complex than PR ever was why are you complaining that you're going to have to make a PR mod to Squad just to correct it?

 

That's simply illogical. Sounds like you bet on the wrong horse to me.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

infinitely more complex than PR ever was

Lol idk how do you expect people to take what you say seriously. It's actually the opposite.

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

If that's the case then why did all you guys turn your back on them, jump ship to the tune of nearly half a million dollars on the misguided expectation that you were getting a PR clone? And not only that now that the game has evolved into something infinitely more complex than PR ever was why are you complaining that you're going to have to make a PR mod to Squad just to correct it?

 

That's simply illogical. Sounds like you bet on the wrong horse to me.

 

That's just disingenuous. People don't play PR for the same reason why nobody plays JO anymore, the game is more than 15 years old, it couldn't have possibly aged much better than it did. Plus why wouldn't we bet on Squad with all the promises of carrying the PR's legacy? Of course now we see that the promises made were kept intentionally vague - at least we can't blame OWI for a lack of forethought - but that makes the sense of betrayal even worse.

 

As rincewind pointed out, Squad is not nearly as complex as PR was, in fact the feeling of Squad getting "dumbed down" more and more with each update is one of the major gripes I've had for more than a year and a half now.

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Hold on just a second, to whoever asked why the PR modders don't make a new PR2, are you aware that most of them are literally part of OWI now? 

 

Who's left as an independent mod team? Besides until a few months ago, nobody ever imagined we'd need a special PR mod for Squad of all games.. 

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

If that's the case then why did all you guys turn your back on them, jump ship to the tune of nearly half a million dollars on the misguided expectation that you were getting a PR clone? 

Hmmm...again. I stay play PR. Many people still do.

 

2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

And not only that now that the game has evolved into something infinitely more complex than PR ever was why are you complaining that you're going to have to make a PR mod to Squad just to correct it?

 

Lol. You´ve never played PR. It´s becoming a bit funny now how you keep talking about it. 

 

2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

That's simply illogical. Sounds like you bet on the wrong horse to me.

Isn´t it obvious?

HAve you actually read any of the post of people feeling cheated???

 

YES. It´s definitely the wrong horse!!!

 

You kill me man!...

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, MultiSquid said:

 

That's just disingenuous. People don't play PR for the same reason why nobody plays JO anymore, the game is more than 15 years old, it couldn't have possibly aged much better than it did. Plus why wouldn't we bet on Squad with all the promises of carrying the PR's legacy? Of course now we see that the promises made were kept intentionally vague - at least we can't blame OWI for a lack of forethought - but that makes the sense of betrayal even worse.

 

As rincewind pointed out, Squad is not nearly as complex as PR was, in fact the feeling of Squad getting "dumbed down" more and more with each update is one of the major gripes I've had for more than a year and a half now.

Me being disingenuous? That's laughable. From my neutral Steam Drone perspective analyzing the bigger perspective of the entire timeline I see all of you guys picking a side after the schism leaving the existing PR crew out in the cold. Why didn't you stick with them and give them half a million dollars instead if PR was so great?

 

I've read over the Squad Kickstarter page many many times and besides flyable jets, sniper role and a few other trivial details you've gotten exactly what you were promised or will shortly. No where on the page does it mention making a PR clone which is essentially what you're you're demanding now, some like petulant little children.

 

Modding is something you do in the evening after your day job is over, your kids are fed and your wife has a new purse. Hanging it all out like the Squad development team has done trying to make a game that actually turns a profit and appeals to a younger generation should be applauded and respected not despised and denigrated.

 

As I've stated previously I'm absolutely no sycophant for this game and certainly not some orbiter like a bunch people here used to be. In fact, if you recall I've always been one of the biggest critics of the OWI policy of letting franchises be the front end of their game with all the clan cronyism and supplemental rule sets contaminating fair and balanced gameplay.

 

Bottom line, the current game is a blast and it gets better and better with every patch. Taking steps to increase to playership should be welcomed. Remember, at the end of the day you can simply turn off the computer and do something else where as these folks have to worry about making a paycheck. I think a lot of you have lost sight of that fact.

Edited by Zylfrax791
the

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

another pointless wall of text

You still keep missing the details. It WAS PR team members who promised "spiritual successor to PR in everything but name" and who received the funding, everyone knows what exactly they have promised and to who exactly, in fact they did it again about a year ago (when the new "old" game designer were hired from PR team he actually promised to move towards PR on it's forums and failed again)

rNdkqpA.png

You don't see any bigger picture for the reasons that has been told to you a lot of times, you see only what you want and keep wasting time being a plug for every barrel and trying to change someone's mind in every thread.

Flat earthers.

 

Probably I've missed the day when lying has become okay in the industry, and now I think the only way out of this is public apology and a refund for backers tbh

Edited by rincewind

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I've read over the Squad Kickstarter page many many times and besides flyable jets, sniper role and a few other trivial details you've gotten exactly what you were promised or will shortly. No where on the page does it mention making a PR clone which is essentially what you're you're demanding now, some like petulant little children.

We can´t expect that a person who hasn´t played PR understands what "PR spiritual successor" means when advertizing a game. 

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Posted (edited)

Let me summarize:

- Squad devs promise to make a spiritual successor to PR

- Squad starts out really unpolished, simple,

and arcade-like, unlike PR

- Over time, more and more features from PR are implemented into Squad (logistics is one big example)

- Fuzz joins and over a few months brings Squad even closer to the PR gameplay style (slower movement, more suppression, more sway, etc.)

- Devs suddenly decide to go in the opposite direction and make the game faster-paced and less punishing

- Shitstorm erupts on the forums and reddit

- Devs admit they’ve decided to cater to newer

and less hardcore players and say that people who post on the forums and reddit are a minority of the community

Edited by fatalsushi

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Most of the posts that I've seen about permadeath and buddy rallies are just advocating for reverting them back to how they worked in v12, that isn't PR purism at all. It's evident that the idea of uncompromising realism a core appeal for Squad, even for folks who don't even know what PR is.

 

It's unfortunate that this is one the thing that Squad designers have decided to dig their heels in on. I think it's too insubstantial increase appeal and most of the criticism is valid.

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3 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

- Devs admit they’ve decided to cater to newer

 

Squad is at a point in development where it's almost feature complete, and with every game(not just Squad) a bit focus is put on new player experience and evaluation of the learning curve, before the game hits beta, and eventually full release. With this comes experiments and tweaks with existing systems/mechanics, sometimes even additions of new ones - to test how the player base reacts, and how much easier new folks are settling into the game.

It's not about making the game all about newer players, its about tackling this particular aspect before full release, so it doesn't have to be done after full release...which would be a lot worse.
 

1 hour ago, Good-Try Greg said:

Most of the posts that I've seen about permadeath and buddy rallies are just advocating for reverting them back to how they worked in v12, that isn't PR purism at all. It's evident that the idea of uncompromising realism a core appeal for Squad, even for folks who don't even know what PR is.

 

It's unfortunate that this is one the thing that Squad designers have decided to dig their heels in on. I think it's too insubstantial increase appeal and most of the criticism is valid.

As it's been said countless times, buddy rally and perma death removal aren't final. With the additions of choppers, buddy rally might be removed, or it could be changed in how it functions. Perma death will be tweaked in the future, in what regard? Wont know until it happens.

Patience and understanding is needed, we are at a time where major content is getting put out every 4 - 6 weeks, and a lot of things are going on to try make sure they keep on target with their releases, as well as trying to maintain quality control of the patches. It's easier said than done, and OWI are doing pretty well with the new cadence.

I'm not a fan of Buddy rally, or Perma death removal - But I know change is coming.
 

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My hope is that these changes are a temporary measure to get new blood into the game and comfortable before tweaking mechanics to be less forgiving again. The playerbase of the game has certainly increased with the recent updates which is fundamental for a game like this to be a viable commercial product since it doesn't have in-game transactions to sustain development.

 

Fingers crossed for the coming updates to revisit those infamous changes.

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3 hours ago, Stom said:

The playerbase of the game has certainly increased with the recent updates which is fundamental for a game like this to be a viable commercial product

Snip

Sir,you Hit the Nail on the Head...OWI to survive need Revenue/ Sales for that they require New Player's of different genre.

I know when all has been said & Done there will be a 'HardCore Mode' or Mod to satisfy all.

Let's Not get our knickers in a Twist until all is done. 

 

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7 hours ago, Dubs said:

As it's been said countless times, buddy rally and perma death removal aren't final. With the additions of choppers, buddy rally might be removed, or it could be changed in how it functions. Perma death will be tweaked in the future, in what regard? Wont know until it happens.


Patience and understanding is needed,..

 

Cool. They aren´t final. THey are honest and sincere about the features they implement…. but...

 

And we all had high hopes and felt heard when the survey was there to express our opinion...

 

All that trust and patience suffered a lot when we had to read the PAINFUL and PITIFUL interpretation of the results gathered. 

 

That was shameful. I think that was the BEFORE AND AFTER moment that made many of us felt tricked. 

 

Patience and understanding got really hurt at that point. 

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Yo guys we gonna change the game in a way that you hate it, and you can't play the way you want anymore, we could give you server-side option to opt-out this controversial change, but meh just don't worry it's not final. We didn't say we will ever change it back though, and so far we think change is justified, so we still don't understand why are you keep complaining

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On 7/22/2019 at 1:44 PM, Mellanbror said:

Sales are going up yes. Game is getting more complete. That is all that means. 

Awesome content has been added and many bug fixes has been made. I'm also happy with that aspect. 

 

I talk with alot of players, it is not my perception we are a minority, not one at a size that can be ignored anyways.  In fact, the entire community roundtables advised against BRP. Even if some polls would show that e g BRP is liked. Who and when in a version cycle polls are taken matter.

You will get voters not knowing other options, or even have a reference point from the past. 

When you are surrounding yourself with like minded people it is easy to believe you are the majority.  I still believe you are the minority. 

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