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Post about Squad’s vision/direction by Merlin

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I do think a big thing we often find ourselves doing is finding a sensible hybrid between the more PUBG-esque gameplay / competitive folks , and the more Arma-esque realism folks. For me the idea has always been to try and bridge the gap between the two by unifying people around features that get people talking to each other, and working together. Namely teamwork and the communication being the glue between realism and gameplay.

Eep. Comp + Arma hybrid sounds like my personal version of hell.

 

Damn if BF2 wasn't lightning in a bottle. A mainstream game with milsim ambitions and functional squad tactics that still fundamentally worked even without communication, just waiting for some clever modders to crack open it's potential. It's influence is greatly missed.

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Regardless, the current state of the game is much more new players friendly and the player population is increasing according to steam chart. Although I would still prefer a much more PR approach (looking at you revive system and rally point system), I would accept the current game mode as the default.  Don't forget, we were gaming the riflemen kit in supply crates to resupply ammo for emplacement in PR too. 

 

In my opinion, we can consider modding after the devs done developing the flying assets. I believe that will be the true point of departure between casual gamers and PR supporters.  

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6 minutes ago, RB79BALL said:

 Don't forget, we were gaming the riflemen kit in supply crates to resupply ammo for emplacement in PR too.

This rocked though. Resupplying emplacements by hand with physical ammo cans is awesome.

Compare it to the bizarre, abstract way dumping supplies from trucks works in v15

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18 minutes ago, Good-Try Greg said:

This rocked though. Resupplying emplacements by hand with physical ammo cans is awesome.

Compare it to the bizarre, abstract way dumping supplies from trucks works in v15

I would say this is the reason for fewer super FOBs in current version. However, I do agree with the dev in the abstract ammo supply at the moment. As a regular game progress with a fully populated server, there will not be enough players filling the front-line if a squad is working on FOB tasks; boring or not. With 2 squad attacking, 1 squad defending, 1 squad in FoB, 0.5 squad on assets, that's all you can do and there won't be any spare unit left of for special OPs (finding enemy FoB/ flanking). On another hand, if the squad in FoB is freed up from the duty, then players will have the chance to make some tactical moves and may the game less predictable. 

 

Therefore, I would only agree to ammo running duties when the game support 50 vs 50, where the extra manpower can be distributed towards flying, AA and FOB duty. 

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i honestly just want a functional damage model with body armor. im tired of bleeding from every little scratch and there needs to be a bigger difference between INS and conventional factions. shit even INS is getting tank v tank gameplay. its simply not even enjoyable to play infantry at this point. as they keep adding more vehicles theres hardly going to even be any more inf gameplay lol

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The term 'spiritual successor' is used a lot, but it's also supposed to be distinct from PR. How do you square that if 95% of the game has identical DNA? It's pretty natural to want to connect the dots of that last 5%. I think there's bitterness there. I can understand nobody wants their ownership questioned and there's been some quite flippant responses when people bring up PR.

 

It's disappointing though because that last 5% is where so much of the spirit of PR lies, temporary rallies etc. It's kind of like a zombie PR. Body intact, spirit lost somewhere along the way. Infinitely reviving and respawning and nobody listens to SLs. Okay metaphor is strained but nevertheless

 

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Posted (edited)

I wouldn't mind a mod like ACE (Arma) for Squad. Though, I think the better approach would be for the developers themselves to shift toward a more "realistic" approach. As of right now, we have a wide variety of weaponry, in-game radio, incredible maps, and exceptional graphics/sounds. So, the key question is, what is missing?

 

To me, I often look at Squad as almost a modern day version of Battlefield 2 but with more to offer (in-game radio, ballistics, cook-off, etc). However, Squad seems to be moving a little more on the arcade side with its built-in systems that are more or less aimed to dummy proof the game for newcomers while reducing the consequences of poor tactics. However, there are two ways we could get that PR type gameplay:

1. The game's complexity needs to go up (not too much though). There's a reason games like Minecraft and Call of Duty are so popular. They are simple and require little thought. Now, compare that to a sim like DCS or Arma w/ ACE. Complexity indeed has a significant impact on the community.

2. A tightnit community server could be a game changer. A key reason why PR seems to have offered quality matches is that the people who play it are "veterans" or weekly regulars. They understand every aspect of the game and how to play it right. I can say from my own experience with Ground Branch back in the "glory days" (i.e. before Steam launch) how there was a very small but dedicated community that knew how to play the game incredibly well (if one saw how we played, you would think we were hardcore milsim when we were simply playing public matches). You would almost need a community server just for this type of gameplay (lone wolfing, friendly fire, sabotage, and not playing the objective will result in a kick).

 

Anyways, that's just my thoughts on the subject matter. I still think the devs have done a fantastic job with development so far regardless. Maybe we just need to shift our attention to modding as our solution.

Edited by ZackTactical34

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7 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

I wouldn't mind a mod like ACE (Arma) for Squad. Though, I think the better approach would be for the developers themselves to shift toward a more "realistic" approach. As of right now, we have a wide variety of weaponry, in-game radio, incredible maps, and exceptional graphics/sounds. So, the key question is, what is missing?

 

To me, I often look at Squad as almost a modern day version of Battlefield 2 but with more to offer (in-game radio, ballistics, cook-off, etc). However, Squad seems to be moving a little more on the arcade side with its built-in systems that are more or less aimed to dummy proof the game for newcomers while reducing the consequences of poor tactics. However, there are two ways we could get that PR type gameplay:

1. The game's complexity needs to go up (not too much though). There's a reason games like Minecraft and Call of Duty are so popular. They are simple and require little thought. Now, compare that to a sim like DCS or Arma w/ ACE. Complexity indeed has a significant impact on the community.

2. A tightnit community server could be a game changer. A key reason why PR seems to have offered quality matches is that the people who play it are "veterans" or weekly regulars. They understand every aspect of the game and how to play it right. I can say from my own experience with Ground Branch back in the "glory days" (i.e. before Steam launch) how there was a very small but dedicated community that knew how to play the game incredibly well (if one saw how we played, you would think we were hardcore milsim when we were simply playing public matches). You would almost need a community server just for this type of gameplay (lone wolfing, friendly fire, sabotage, and not playing the objective will result in a kick).

 

Anyways, that's just my thoughts on the subject matter. I still think the devs have done a fantastic job with development so far regardless. Maybe we just need to shift our attention to modding as our solution.

This is one the best posts I've seen here reflecting on what amounts to PR tunnel vision. Whilst other "PRaphiles" here wax nostalgic in endless comparison/contrasts tangents and even blatant disrespectful comments like dude above with "bloated and directionless" this guy actually applies logic in his explanations.

 

From my perspective modding the completely unique and complex game of Squad by essentially reverse engineering it into PR2 would be like buying a brand new 2020 Ferrari off the showroom floor, taking it to custom shop and having them modify it into an 1985 Yugo.

 

Also think about how silly it sounds as well; a Mod of game that's based on game that was a Mod of a game. It just sounds ridiculous to me to waste a bunch of time to remake your fantasy military murder simulation program into one that conforms to some outdated paradigm.

 

Remaking PR maps that don't yet exist in Squad would seem like a much more worthwhile endeavor as opposed to making a PR2 clone.

 

 

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I would support such a mod for Squad, as I feel Squad is okay, but is missing this special something.

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what about a new gamemode called PR? that would be a "mod" "within a game", disguised as a "gamemode" :ph34r:

 

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Personally I have not liked some of the recent changes, but very much liked some of the new content and other design choices. I am hopeful the direction of making the game more broadly appealing leads to a larger community and an opportunity for OWI to consider an official "hard core" mode, or for some sort of defacto hardcore mod to emerge.

 

 

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I am willing to be deeply involved into creating and making Project Reality: Squad. 

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1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

I am willing to be deeply involved into creating and making Project Reality: Squad. 

The missing features would be breacher's grappling hook, dual function sights and thermal optics. Reverting back a few patch will give us the PR rally point system.

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1 hour ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

how is "bloated and directionless" disrespectful? it's exactly what the game is

Well, at least its less disrespectful than your previous comments you made here:

 

"the devs are incompetent and cowardly tbh, 90% of the design changes from PR have been negative they've done well from a technical perspective but at this point I don't think this game (3 years early access btw) will ever come close to PR, hopefully modders will surprise us"

 

"kamdesh is a steaming pile of shit and the devs need to stop wasting time making forest pixel hunts (please hire a competent map designer) alternatively just port maps from PR because those are the most popular for a reason"

 

"were you the fat kids in school? physically fit people can easily jump from that height and be perfectly fine"

 

"I'm not really concerned with making friends or making sure the devs feelings are intact, this game needs more people willing to criticise it the solution is to port the maps 1:1 from PR, I'm not sure what else you think needs to be said"

 

 

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Completely agreed with everything hotpokkaminny posted. Completely nails it. Sometimes truth hurts. ;)

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On 19/07/2019 at 9:03 PM, Good-Try Greg said:

Damn if BF2 wasn't lightning in a bottle. A mainstream game with milsim ambitions and functional squad tactics that still fundamentally worked even without communication,

lightning in a bottle? seriously? it was just another military-based make-work cheese-grinder shooter and was broken badly enough by the second patch, supposed to "fix" the netcode, that we could not play any more so we went back to playing JointOps instead.

milsim ambitions?! ... well if you consider that the only (that we found) "functional squad tactic" in BF2 was hide-the-SL-and-use-them-as-a-spawnpoint to instantly pop the entire squad back into action within seconds after being wiped ...

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Oh BF2 was a technical mess don't get me wrong. I mean, I will basically defend BF2 to the death no matter what, but cmon, nobody designs a multi-tiered voip system with commanders and order confirmations and all that and doesn't have milsim ambitions. What the game actually ended up being was different, but it's the fact that BF2 actually Went For It in a way Battlefield has never done did before or since that PR was able to make something much better and rules-grounded out of it than ARMA.

 

In particular, the SL spawn fundamentally worked. As long as the SL provides the absolute best spawn point in the game, the SL can direct the squad naturally even without communication. PR kept these ideas fundamentally intact (rally did put restrictions on spawning infantry into combat, but BF2's revive system was also less restrictive, so SLs really could still fight rather than just hide in a corner or whatever). The takeaway though is that squads, acting on the SLs initiative, were much more powerful than anything else in the game. So there's a natural squad cohesion and squad coordination that all stems from that.

 

In Squad, Squads are no longer the most powerful thing in the game anymore, FOBs are, and they need constant reinforcement to keep them alive. The SL's main job is to play the strategic game and know where and when to place spawn points. Even if they want to play tactically, the rally can't even be used to get the squad all together anymore, it's just another type of FOB. It all unravels from there, SLing is very hands-off compared to PR (Or BF2!)

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Have cleaned this thread of off-topic and unacceptable posts.

Keep discussion relevant, no need to resort to personal retorts.

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IMO it feels like the game is getting more casual by the update. When i backed in the KS i was like.. men this could be different then the current BF games. ,more hardcore, more realistic... But its turning away from those (imo) glory days of closed alpha's etc.

Also i think the focus is too much on vehicle warfare and less on infantry. I started playing skirmish only servers due to this.

 

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5 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Reddit has exploded into an endless shitstorm about how the recent controversial changes are ruining the game, so someone made a PR2 mod. Very simple but it’s a start.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1812471359

Essentially Squad v12 ... which like Rally, Death-Death and Momentum was perfect ... instead they wanted to make it easier and arcade.
As if someone had asked to eliminate the momentum-inertia ... infinite sadness

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5 hours ago, fatalsushi said:

Reddit has exploded into an endless shitstorm about how the recent controversial changes are ruining the game, so someone made a PR2 mod. Very simple but it’s a start.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1812471359

Looks more like some comps trolling you PR guys than an actual mod. Several of the supposed features of the "mod" aren't even exposed in the SDK to the best of my knowledge.

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Considering the author of the mod, I doubt its a genuine mod, and I highly doubt he went thru the proper channels to get permission to use the PR logo like that.

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