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drfreee

why we cant destory trees ?

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bradley weight is 33.000 kg cant destroy the tree why ? in arma u can destory buildigns too with vehicles or firing. i know arma is diffrent from arma and squad has diffrent taste but i just wanted ask

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, drfreee said:

bradley weight is 33.000 kg cant destroy the tree why ? in arma u can destory buildigns too with vehicles or firing. i know arma is diffrent from arma and squad has diffrent taste but i just wanted ask

Unfortunately that will require overhaul of entire game. This is unfortunately not the Frostbite or ARMA Engine, where you can level everything and anything to the ground.

Edited by Caliell

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Caliell said:

Unfortunately that will require overhaul of entire game. This is unfortunately not the Frostbite or ARMA Engine, where you can level everything and anything to the ground.

It's the unreal engine, where your imagination is the limit. Implementing destructible foliage does not entail an overhaul of the "entire game"... Not sure where you got that idea 

Edited by Psyrus

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8 hours ago, Psyrus said:

It's the unreal engine, where your imagination is the limit. Implementing destructible foliage does not entail an overhaul of the "entire game"... Not sure where you got that idea 

Processing speeds and bandwidth are the limits. I can imagine games 10000000x better than what's on offer but there are really low limits to what consumer tech can do. Pray for quantum computing. 

Like, can you imagine a multiplayer PvE FPS on one lagless global server where the gamers of the world combat an equal army of machine learning robots with a Deepmind AI for every agent and real-time hive-mind strategic planning? Would be better than XCOM or Mass Effect MP, but there is not enough computing power on the planet.

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"single draw call"

 

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Foliage/index.html

 

This page can better explain the "why can't we destroy trees?" question.

 

Bottom line, in UE you'd need to make every single bush, shrub and tree in a map as a stand alone static mesh blueprint with a destruction animation and resulting husk and then imagine this multiplied exponentially with multiplayer replication.

 

Maybe the devs can put one or two of these destructible trees next to the road on a sharp corner for as paid DLC for you guys.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

... in UE you'd need to ...

Just like in any modern engine. And you can take any single tree out of that chunk and do whatever. Like arma does. It's not even heavy on replication since everyone has the same set at the beginning, you just need to figure out how to effectively load latest state for those who join later. tl;dr don't try to explain things you don't understand.

 

here's one quick google result for you:

OWI hate this guy! Learn how he got interactive instanced trees with this one simple blueprint!

ofc it would require a lot more work to do in a real game but it's perfectly doable. (doesn't even needs to be an actor, just apply rotation to an instance like arma does)

Edited by rincewind

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1 hour ago, rincewind said:

don't try to explain things you don't understand.

Touché...

 

...by all means download the SDK and show us all how its done then. Start by making blueprints for all the foliage on Yeho and Goro and by the time you're done with all the rest of the maps you'll be getting your first Social Security check.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Touché...

 

...by all means download the SDK and show us all how its done then. Start by making blueprints for all the foliage on Yeho and Goro and by the time you're done with all the rest of the maps you'll be getting your first Social Security check.

You still don't get it do you :) It's done once and works for any InstancedStaticMeshCopmponent on any map.

Edited by rincewind

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Posted (edited)

Just because something can be made doesn't mean it will in the end. I'm not familiar with coding in UE4, but generally speaking whenever a feature is proposed or thought of for any piece of software, there is also a gain vs risk assessment going on:

 

Is it doable?

If yes, how?

Is it maintainable in the long run?

Is it acceptable performance-wise?

How long will it take and how much will it cost?

Is there another feature that would give greater benefits to the software if the time and money was spent on that instead?

 

Maybe they can do it but it might have performance implications, or siphon resources away from other goals like 100 players servers and helicopters. Who knows?

 

I'm not saying i wouldn't like it, i'd love it if we got some kind of destructible terrain (hello, this is mortar squad, say goodbye to your cover xD), but as with any piece of software something's got to give at some point and compromises have to be made.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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On 2019-07-08 at 6:05 AM, Burningbeard80 said:

Just because something can be made doesn't mean it will in the end. I'm not familiar with coding in UE4, but generally speaking whenever a feature is proposed or thought of for any piece of software, there is also a gain vs risk assessment going on:

 

Is it doable?

If yes, how?

Is it maintainable in the long run?

Is it acceptable performance-wise?

How long will it take and how much will it cost?

Is there another feature that would give greater benefits to the software if the time and money was spent on that instead?

 

Maybe they can do it but it might have performance implications, or siphon resources away from other goals like 100 players servers and helicopters. Who knows?

 

I'm not saying i wouldn't like it, i'd love it if we got some kind of destructible terrain (hello, this is mortar squad, say goodbye to your cover xD), but as with any piece of software something's got to give at some point and compromises have to be made.

Why do we need 100 player servers? Did anyone even ask for that? 50 and destructible assets would be so much better. Just a silly number they put up. 

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1 hour ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Why do we need 100 player servers? Did anyone even ask for that? 50 and destructible assets would be so much better. Just a silly number they put up. 

My preference would be Fortnite art style graphics with 100 players and no desych over driving over shrubberies any day of the week. For me its about the strategies and tactics not the eye candy.

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9 hours ago, SpecialAgentJohnson said:

Why do we need 100 player servers? Did anyone even ask for that? 50 and destructible assets would be so much better. Just a silly number they put up. 

Not it's not lol, these 10 extra players per team is a whole extra squad to work with, meaning that stuff like territory controll might be a bit easier for both sides to form proper lines, or you have to worry less about the current amount of vehicles reducing the amount of infantry.

 

I think that's more important than desctructible assets, for now at least. The only real destruction i'd like to see is stuff like bridges.

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The increased player cap is quite important to run public matches with some sense of organisation.

 

Currently, people make a fuss whenever someone is not playing the objective directly, and that drives gameplay down a very predictable and repeated method of doing things. With 20 extra people you can have a lot more possibilities because people can now apply indirect strategies in addition to the usual "spawn, rush the point, kill, die" meatgrinder.

 

You can do a lot with 20 extra guys, like having a dedicated mortar squad of 6 guys, dedicated helicopter (1-3 people), tank and apc squads (3 people per piece of armor). Assuming 2 tanks and 2 APCs/IFVs, that's a total of 19 to 21 people for the squads i just mentioned, depending on if the chopper squad also includes gunners (2 per chopper in addition to the pilot) or not. So, you get these and only these people to man only those assets for the duration of the map (no more taking whatever vehicle you want as an infantry squad, some are claimed by specialised squads), and still have as many infantry squads as you have now to actively play the objectives, while the other ones support them in ways that don't require to stack as many bodies as possible within a few square meters.

 

You can have 3 or even 6 guys taking a 20 minute break in main while they wait for the tanks to respawn and they won't get yelled at, because the importance of always having someone to man the tanks when they are available is more than the disadvantage of a few  guys hanging around main waiting for asset respawn. With the current numbers you cannot do that, because 6 guys is 2/3 of an infantry squad and on average each team has space for just 4-5 full squads.

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there is only one solution .... at this moment. 

call 

"Enemy tree" 

simply dont hit them. 

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On 7/7/2019 at 6:39 PM, rincewind said:

You still don't get it do you :) It's done once and works for any InstancedStaticMeshCopmponent on any map.

You're right. I still don't get it. However, when I see your mod of Yeho that has tens if not hundreds of thousands of foliage instances with existing wind animations and is fully destroyable and running full 80 player replication on a custom server I'll be sure and come check it out and eat crow. Post a link here when its finished and I'll drive over a tree with a Bradley.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

You're right. I still don't get it. 

That's why I said don't try to explain things you don't understand.  And you're not going anywhere with your dares :)

If you want to learn something and get rid of ignorance then you can start with UE docs you've linked.

Like there: http://api.unrealengine.com/INT/BlueprintAPI/Components/InstancedStaticMesh/

Then try it yourself.

 

edit: oh btw, be sure to check out this one: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1791267848

apparently (i didn't see it in action yet though) he's done all the work already: Resource Gathering - Rock boulders, trees, and woodpiles can be harvested for resources.

Only difference is it's triggered by a player (which is probably much heavier on replication because there's a lot more players in the world than tanks runing over trees at the same time.)

Edited by rincewind

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6 hours ago, rincewind said:

That's why I said don't try to explain things you don't understand.  And you're not going anywhere with your dares :)

If you want to learn something and get rid of ignorance then you can start with UE docs you've linked.

Like there: http://api.unrealengine.com/INT/BlueprintAPI/Components/InstancedStaticMesh/

Then try it yourself.

 

edit: oh btw, be sure to check out this one: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1791267848

apparently (i didn't see it in action yet though) he's done all the work already: Resource Gathering - Rock boulders, trees, and woodpiles can be harvested for resources.

Only difference is it's triggered by a player (which is probably much heavier on replication because there's a lot more players in the world than tanks runing over trees at the same time.)

Condescending deflection techniques and superiority complexes do nothing to negate the fact that you yourself claim its "perfectly doable" though so essentially you bear burden of proof in this situation not me.

 

You're the one claiming superior knowledge and pontification skills over my "ignorance" so go ahead and bring OP's dream to life. From this point on anything less than you making a mod in Squad where you unequivocally make all the foliage on Yeho or Goro completely destroyable across a full 80 player server just simply proves you're the one that's mistaken.

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34 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Condescending deflection techniques and superiority complexes do nothing to negate the fact that you yourself claim its "perfectly doable" though so essentially you bear burden of proof in this situation not me.

 

You're the one claiming superior knowledge and pontification skills over my "ignorance" so go ahead and bring OP's dream to life. From this point on anything less than you making a mod in Squad where you unequivocally make all the foliage on Yeho or Goro completely destroyable across a full 80 player server just simply proves you're the one that's mistaken.

"you can't unscrew this"

"no you can, here's the screwdriver and a video tutorial on how to use it"

"PROVE IT REEEEEE"

Lol you're thick.

Okay let's discuss that, my time is not free but if you're willing to pay I will implement working system and release it. PM me :)

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UE4 had pretty horrid destruction support in it's earlier days, was quite costly & time consuming to get even a prototype system working effectively with the tools available back then. The past year or so and most recent engine updates has made it less of a pain in the ass(Partly thanks to fortnite).

With destruction, replication is part of the issue, especially when it comes to maps with large amounts of objects you want to be destructible. Imagine every tree & stump on Skorpo being able to be knocked down, and we had the tanks just driving through knocking down 100s of trees in a short time, that would need to be replicated across 80 clients(eventually 100) and well as being correctly displayed for JIP's. It's still costly and replication can be a pain in the ass on that scale, but it's certainly not as much of a pain in the ass as it was years ago.

Another issue is, it's time consuming to build a destruction system around a game that hasn't planned for it, from the start. It's generally why most devs who plan for destruction as a main feature will have it in their game early on, and build their game around it - To have that bandwidth space filled for it. If you don't do this, and just throw in destruction in the middle of development while adding major features that hog things server side, you're going to have issues.

From what's been said, OWI will maybe explore destruction post 1.0 release when it's clear how much room they have available. They have said they would like destructible doors, bridges etc  Until post 1.0 release, they can't really justify the overhead, even then it comes down to what other things they want post 1.0 release, and could they justify it then.

ALSO, lets keep discussion to a productive level. No need to get silly and start throwing shade.

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36 minutes ago, Dubs said:

 tanks just driving through knocking down 100s of trees in a short time, 

It's not an easy task for a tank (depending on a size of a tree), if you impose limitations like instant slowdown then the count of these events will be low. (whatever happens for JIP during loading is not really a concern)

Tho the amount of tanks flying into the skies will go up 

Edited by rincewind

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1 hour ago, rincewind said:

"you can't unscrew this"

"no you can, here's the screwdriver and a video tutorial on how to use it"

"PROVE IT REEEEEE"

Lol you're thick.

Okay let's discuss that, my time is not free but if you're willing to pay I will implement working system and release it. PM me :)

 

47 minutes ago, Dubs said:

With destruction, replication is part of the issue, especially when it comes to maps with large amounts of objects you want to be destructible. Imagine every tree & stump on Skorpo being able to be knocked down, and we had the tanks just driving through knocking down 100s of trees in a short time, that would need to be replicated across 80 clients(eventually 100) and well as being correctly displayed for JIP's. It's still costly and replication can be a pain in the ass on that scale, but it's certainly not as much of a pain in the ass as it was years ago.

Another issue is, it's time consuming to build a destruction system around a game that hasn't planned for it, from the start. It's generally why most devs who plan for destruction as a main feature will have it in their game early on, and build their game around it - To have that bandwidth space filled for it. If you don't do this, and just throw in destruction in the middle of development while adding major features that hog things server side, you're going to have issues.

That's what @Zylfrax791 probably meant.

Like sure it might be easy in Unreal Engine itself, but good luck doing it mid-development when your entire game is not built around this feature.

 

If you think you can develop this for Squad then go ahead and do it, though no payment untill you've done it lol.

Edited by Guan_Yu007

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6 minutes ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

 

That's what @Zylfrax791 probably meant.

Like sure it might be easy in Unreal Engine itself, but good luck doing it mid-development when your entire game is not built around this feature.

I said it before, there's no actual need for destruction crysis-like. What is actually more suitable for large scale multiplayer is just performing a rotation operation to the tree. Just like in arma. No physics, nothing fancy, but it works, not really a feature you build a game around.

Edited by rincewind

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42 minutes ago, rincewind said:

It's not an easy task for a tank (depending on a size of a tree), if you impose limitations like instant slowdown then the count of these events will be low.

Tho the amount of tanks flying into the skies will go up 

Hilarious. Dubs offers a parallel description to mine of why its virtually impossible to implement such a system in the game and instead of degrading as "thick" & "ignorant" you instead go passive aggressive.

 

I get it though. Since day one I've always understood that this is essentially a post PR members only club so as a lower tier non-founder Steam drone my opinions have always had very little value and any feedback I offer is irrelevant as such.

 

That's ok though, because the game itself has taken on a life of its own and evolved into something exceedingly unique and creative far beyond the PR clone you all thought you were getting and thankfully all my shitposting had nothing to do with it so I'm off the hook and you can't blame me! :)

Edited by Zylfrax791
speeling

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20 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Hilarious. Dubs offers a parallel description to mine of why its virtually impossible to implement such a system in the game and instead of degrading with as "thick" & "ignorant" you instead go passive aggressive.

I see you still don't get it. Lets look back at your first post, you proposed that every tree has to be it's own actor to be destructible. Do you see where are you wrong now?

He said it's possible (requires work) = just like I did

You said it's impossible for a reason that does not exists

Learn to admit your mistakes

Edited by rincewind

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