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RB79BALL

In the matter of fall damage

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This is an on going problem since I can remember, dropping down for a one storey building is causing fall damage that is annoying and bandage eating. I know it is realistic to have damage taken in such scenario, but this game requires us to pop up and down across buildings. Until the rope system in PR is introduced to squad, I have a recommendation to reduce frustration to both the injured and medics.

 

Since the injured mechanics is height dependent, instead of make the code as X amount of damage taken = height * damage equation, add an if statement as 

 

IF height between 2 meters to 2.5 meters,

players will drop and perform a fall down and stand up animation. Instead of taking damage.

 

A delay motion is sufficient penalty in my opinion. In term of testing the mechanics, forcing the player to go prone after a fall can replace the animation cost. I find either options are better than the current damage mechanics. 

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I disagree. I would not want to encourage jumping off of rooftops in Squad. I do agree that the bandaging is a bit silly, but I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in fall damage (without the bleeding) when jumping from a certain height. Leaping off a 2,5 meter high object, strapped with military gear, should be discouraged as much as possible. You would never see real life soldiers do stupid shit like that, as a sprained ankle would mean an incapacitated soldier. 

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3 hours ago, RB79BALL said:

IF height between 2 meters to 2.5 meters, players will drop and perform a fall down and stand up animation. Instead of taking damage.

Please make a video of yourself jumping down 7 feet with a 70 lbs. ruck and holding a rifle. Be sure and include the ending where the paramedics attempt to stabilize your shattered tibia and fibula bones that sticking out your legs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Please make a video of yourself jumping down 7 feet with a 70 lbs. ruck and holding a rifle. Be sure and include the ending where the paramedics attempt to stabilize your shattered tibia and fibula bones that sticking out your legs.

What about giving the matter a different perspective? In real life, if you need to make the jump, you would grab onto the edge of the wall with your hand and suspend your entire body before you are making the drop. That way, you are reducing the drop height from 2.5m to 1m. The 1.5 meter includes your body height from toe to shoulder of 1.3m and a 0.2m of you fully extended arm. Since the game cannot provide that level of detail without introducing a magnet mechanics at every building edges similar to assassin creed. Don't you think my proposal can be an alternative with the movement delay considered? 

Edited by RB79BALL

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, RB79BALL said:

What about giving the matter a different perspective? In real life, if you need to make the jump, you would grab onto the edge of the wall with your hand and suspend your entire body before you are making the drop. That way, you are reducing the drop height from 2.5m to 1m. The 1.5 meter includes your body height from toe to shoulder of 1.3m and a 0.2m of you fully extended arm. Since the game cannot provide that level of detail without introducing a magnet mechanics at every building edges similar to assassin creed. Don't you think my proposal can be an alternative with the movement delay considered? 

I would look at it this way... 

 

Realism will not be achieved either way. We are simply not there yet. Scale, physics, ballistics, damage model, health and medical treatment, etc in Squad (or any game for that matter) is at a "monkeys cracking nuts open with rocks" - stage.

 

As developers are decades upon decades away from creating realistic experiences (we are talking the Matrix here), they will have to resort to trickery, smokescreens,  almost a magician's approach with deception and cunning "sleight of hand" methods, to suspend the players' disbelief to the point where they feel engaged and immersed. 

 

So what we are looking for isn't realism, but maybe a somewhat authentic visual and audible representation of a modern battlefield. 

 

There are so many different ways, and already so many available mechanics, to achieve this "authenticity". IMO, the game could be released right now, but with an entirely different set of rules and tweaks to existing game mechanics, and it could probably pull off simulating an authentic experience.

The game really doesn't need much more in regards to content. The potential for extraordinary gaming experiences, that would suspend your disbelief beyond anything you've experienced before, is already there. However, it would require real engagement from all players.   

 

You know, sh!t, if someone made a mod of the mod Brutal Doom in which they slowed down player movement, created some sandbox type maps, added some CTF type of game mechanics, and just threw the right type of people into a 40 player Team-CTF-Deathmatch, they could probably immerse themselves into this very crude, pixelated environment to the point where they suspend all disbelief. 

 

It's more in the hands and head of the actual player than in the game itself. Our imagination is what creates the experience. Even the best looking games today would not even fool a 12th century peasant it was "reality". We are the ones to willingly and actively immerse ourselves into these experiences. 

 

So what does Squad need to stick out more than it does? To live up to its fullest potential?  

 

It needs a very strong incentive to utilize all the available tools given to squad leaders, medics, and grunts alike. When you spawn in you need to feel a strong connection to your avatar, the role you have been given, and your task at hand. You need to feel like you are part of something bigger. You need reason to invest yourself in this experience, and the people you play with. 

 

Being able to jump off rooftops will do absolutely nothing to incentivize this engagement. It will only encourage more lone wolf Rambo-type gameplay. This game is already on a runaway train heading for the arcade shooter section of Steam's 2020 summer sale. Why implement a mechanic that will do nothing but chuck more coal into the locomotive's burner?

 

What we need is an unforgiving game. Brutally ruthless for those who wants to solo-rush to the firefight and get a couple of kills. Sadistically merciless towards those that do not understand the concept of teamwork and communication. Anyone who joins a server to snag a marksman kit and run off in to the woods should not want to play this game. 

 

I am sorry for going off the rails here... not sure where I am going with this. 

 

I guess what I am trying to get to is; The least of our concerns should be graphical and physical gimmicks. They are just that. Gimmicks. So what if it's a little silly needing to bandage when you've fallen from a high structure? Again, suspension of disbelief. Maybe you hit your face on your weapon's stock when you hit the ground.

The reason for that mechanic being in place is to discourage players from trying all kinds of BF4 moves in-game, because it has no place in Squad. 

 

I am sure it's a placeholder for something else in the future. Maybe an animation, an updated damage- and health model, whatever.

 

End rant...

Edited by PuddleMurda

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Maybe instead of needing a bandage on light falls, it decreases your movement speed for X time or doesnt allow you to sprint for X time. (and the X will be in seconds, so the decrease wont be long)?

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Just remove the bleed. Fall damage is fine, but losing a bandage to a slight miscalculation in height gets annoying.

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21 hours ago, pinko said:

Just remove the bleed. Fall damage is fine, but losing a bandage to a slight miscalculation in height gets annoying.

That will be a quick fix. I would still stand for a post drop delay instead of taking damage as it is rather difficult to estimate at what height (within the range of one storey building) will the damage begin. 

I would totally support a damage, drop delay and bandage for anyone foolish enough to jump off the roof of a 2 stories building. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, RB79BALL said:

That will be a quick fix. I would still stand for a post drop delay instead of taking damage as it is rather difficult to estimate at what height (within the range of one storey building) will the damage begin. 

I would totally support a damage, drop delay and bandage for anyone foolish enough to jump off the roof of a 2 stories building. 

Ok. So you basically want players jumping off two story building rooftops. Because what you are proposing is more or less the same penalties that we have now for jumping from some 2,5 meters, but from 5 meters instead. So it's got nothing to do with the actual penalty itself, bandaging and damage, but rather the height. You want a more BF4 - arcade - jumping around on rooftops - type - game. Understood. 

 

This right here is why you, developers, or anyone for that matter, should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, listen to someone proposing even the most minor change in a more casual direction. Because there never is a rational thought behind it. It has never been, and will never be, anything other than emotional appeal. 

 

When you start breaking down ideas and suggestions that argues for a more forgiving game, and I literally mean every single idea and suggestion that has ever been presented, you can apply the very same rational dissection as I just did and the result will always (again, I really mean always like in no exception - every single time - always) be that it's nothing but emotional appeal. 

 

I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to grasp. It's similar to the flat earth conspiracy. You could present a million infallible examples and practically testable scenarios, but the answer would still be the same; "But it wouldn't be fun and drive the player base away". You ask why, and the answer would be; "Because emotional appeal." 

 

I made a post about his some time ago. How developers shouldn't listen to the community, and why player feedback (other than bug testing) is a very bad idea. That thread got shut down with... well guess?! You got it... emotional appeal

Edited by PuddleMurda

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Posted (edited)

Using word "never" so much appealed to me as nothing more than emotional appeal

Disregarding all other emotional victimized stuff in there

Edited by paragonid

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4 hours ago, paragonid said:

Using word "never" so much appealed to me as nothing more than emotional appeal

Disregarding all other emotional victimized stuff in there

Intentionally used four times in the second chunk of text as the former and following explains why you should never...

 

Victimized? Also, explain how what I wrote is emotional appeal...? 

 

Actually, don't bother. Or do. I don't give a sh!t.

 

Want some victimization?

 

Another forum I am done with. The cognitive malfunction is just too overpowering. Just as well. I am moving, and selling my rig anyways, so why should I spend (waste) another second of my life in this sub-par envitonment.

 

Good luck to all of you who try to turn this ship around. I'll probably buy another rig in a year or two. I'll check out the result then.

 

Out...

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it is amazing how often forum discussions turn into 2 people arguing against each other but for the same thing.

 

the idea is good, easy and worthy of testing, with small effect on overall gameplay but good improvements to the immediate issue... in a pre release game.

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Posted (edited)

Well, this escalated quickly overnight. 

11 hours ago, PuddleMurda said:

Ok. So you basically want players jumping off two story building rooftops. Because what you are proposing is more or less the same penalties that we have now for jumping from some 2,5 meters, but from 5 meters instead. So it's got nothing to do with the actual penalty itself, bandaging and damage, but rather the height. You want a more BF4 - arcade - jumping around on rooftops - type - game. Understood. 

 

This right here is why you, developers, or anyone for that matter, should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, listen to someone proposing even the most minor change in a more casual direction. Because there never is a rational thought behind it. It has never been, and will never be, anything other than emotional appeal. 

 

When you start breaking down ideas and suggestions that argues for a more forgiving game, and I literally mean every single idea and suggestion that has ever been presented, you can apply the very same rational dissection as I just did and the result will always (again, I really mean always like in no exception - every single time - always) be that it's nothing but emotional appeal. 

 

I don't know why this is so difficult for so many to grasp. It's similar to the flat earth conspiracy. You could present a million infallible examples and practically testable scenarios, but the answer would still be the same; "But it wouldn't be fun and drive the player base away". You ask why, and the answer would be; "Because emotional appeal." 

 

I made a post about his some time ago. How developers shouldn't listen to the community, and why player feedback (other than bug testing) is a very bad idea. That thread got shut down with... well guess?! You got it... emotional appeal

May I know what exactly do you want the game to do. Do you prefer preserving the current mechanics or what kind of changes do you propose? I don't see any suggestion from the previous post beside disapproval on my proposal. I would be interested to know what exactly do you want SQUAD to do with falling from medium height. 

Edited by RB79BALL

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there is already some threshold between slight damage (no idea how much damage or what height is) and needing the bandage.

  • bandage usage is a bit annoying but not that big a problem.
  • For me the biggest problem is the penalised (suicide) death from a small drop.

I need to get down a drop and know I have low health. In this case in reality i would find a way to gently lower myself or expect some recovery time but not death.

Deliberate death by falling needs to be controlled in some way.

 

A solution - height/damage are just suggestions - assume 100 health is full:

2m drop = no damage

2-3m drop = 10 damage no bandage (i think this should also be used for being run over)

3-4m = 40 damage + need bandage + 5 second ragdoll

>4m = 50 damage + need bandage  + 10 for every extra metre + 5 second ragdoll for every metre

 

eg from full health

9m drop = need revive

8m drop = alive, need to bandage but ragdoll for 20 seconds so potential extra damage.

 

add a condition to prevent suicide. if health <0 from fall damage add usual ragdoll plus 1 second ragdoll for every point below 0.

eg from partial health

So worst case is a guy with 1% health falls 10m and gets 100 damage, he is now ragdoll for 99 seconds but not a suicide.

Typically for a small fall there is just a short ragdoll simulating passing out from pain.

Bleed out in this time is possible.

 

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3 hours ago, suds said:

- assume 100 health is full:

2m drop = no damage

Unrealistic. 2 meters with 70+ lbs. of gear strapped to your body and holding a rifle is going to shatter your ankles or worse break your lower legs. This is Arcade mode.

 

The devs have modelled the fall damage perfectly.

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23 hours ago, suds said:

A solution - height/damage are just suggestions - assume 100 health is full:

PLS

ZERO imagination 

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On 08/07/2019 at 4:03 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

Unrealistic. 2 meters with 70+ lbs. of gear strapped to your body and holding a rifle is going to shatter your ankles or worse break your lower legs. This is Arcade mode.

 

The devs have modelled the fall damage perfectly.

Then, why should the dev support lifting oneself over some mud wall and give you a fall damage after leaping?

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54 minutes ago, RB79BALL said:

Then, why should the dev support lifting oneself over some mud wall and give you a fall damage after leaping?

Dunno. Why not ask them?

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I'm crewman with no equipment on me and still taking fall damage by dropping of abrams, this needs to be addressed

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So then how do you justify insurgents and irregulars taking fall damage on the same level as conventional soldiers? They aren't packing 70 lbs of gear. Every time I play insurgents and get spawned on top of the HAB, I always get fall damage when I inevitably have to drop down. That shack isn't even that tall.

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The fall damage is one of the many realistic attributes that separates Squad from every other FPS game. That's the "intelligent" part mentioned in the mission statement. There must be consequences for your actions.

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But we can in game hall us and all of our equipment up and over a ledge. There should a similar mechanic for us to do the reverse without damage, it's only logical and realistic. In fact you could just reverse the exact same animation

Edited by Marco

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