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scallops

Bad game culture at the moment

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6 minutes ago, PuddleMurda said:

The closest I have come to a moment like that in Squad was...

 

2 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

The devs clearly want this game to go in the BF/COD direction. I wouldn't be surprised if we get crosshairs and player radars in the near future...

YOu should go over the HARDCORE GAME MODE there and add up to the voice of people who at least want to see a game mode added. Or a game mod supported by devs.

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3 hours ago, PuddleMurda said:

I guess I have found myself another brutha! Good to see "we" are still out there, even if a very small minority.

Good to meet you! I'll let you know when I start mod development.

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Posted (edited)

You guys raise some good points. I think the problem is as well that in the mind of a newish player, in order to win you should throw down a good fob closer to key objective than enemy team and when your team all dies they will spawn closer than the enemy and thus quicker.  But actually that's like one of 100 different intricate factors you need to consider in order to win... on it's own the strat is essentially just a zerg rush.

 

As for spamming hand grenades, it's a great strat, you cant just throw one or they'll throw one back at you... you should have a source of ammo close by anyway if the squad leaders are doing their job properly, and not sucking up all the supplies from your defense fob to go zerg rush

 

anyway, you usually get a few good games per night on the aussie servers where people communicate etc, you just need a bit of luck.

Edited by scallops

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An alternative to removing rally's could be PR's way of spawning. In PR, each time you died you got 1 second added to your spawn timer. Hence the player might try to stay alive more. On the other hand PR also gave players the incentive to defend flags because when you killed an enemy while defending a flag you got 1 second deducted from your spawn time ie. although the minumum spawn time never changed.

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There are many alternatives to recreate a more tactical approach to the game. Many good ideas in the forum and many ideas already implemented in other games (PR for example).

 

By now, if they haven´t implemented them is not because the don´t know about them or they aren´t aware of the consequences current mechanicsn have in the game... If they haven´t implemented (OR EVEN COMMENT) about it, it´s not because they don´t know about options, it´s because they don´t want to do it (for many posible reasons)

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12 hours ago, Burningbeard80 said:

People did in in PR all the time with a much more limited tool set and it was very successful. Of course it was not done 24/7,  but during the server's prime time when a lot of the owners/admins/clan members were online, it was the norm

My favourite rule from PR was the assets rule, if you want a tank, make a squad for it, or join one already existing, same with apc's. On prta we actually want to start trying to implement it. Hopefully we won't be seeing infantry squads taking IFV's anymore, and instead have a specialised squad for it. We're hoping to fix the teamwork issues between squad leaders, on most servers a lot of the comms between SL's are just silent...

So we want to start enforcing it.

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Posted (edited)

The only time I ever mind getting someone up is when they died because they did something stupid (ex: stood up during an extended long range firefight,  ran into a building we know is occupied like they are in the Leroy Jenkins fan club, died completely out in the open, etc), AND get annoying about wanting the revive immediately, or demand one instantly because they are an SL and need to get a rally down (which buddy rally relieved this of mostly), or they just aren't thinking and don't realize that the thing which killed them will now kill me if I go for them.  

 

In this game if I kill someone I'm likely camping the body.  I know people get pressured into reviving and I can trace the path people are coming while picking off revivers. I assume other people play this way, so I'm picky about revives because I only go for them in totally safe environments or areas which I feel like I have fully cleared out. If we are mid range going up a hill then depending on the size of the firefight, you might be waiting a while.  

 

But thats my playstyle. I don't do it to be rude, I do it because that is my playstyle.  I like to keep a high KDA. For me, the most rewarding feeling in the game is having to go back to fill up on ammo;  after slowly pushing into the offense objective, taking people out and actively creating a way in,  surviving on 1 life, then having to refill on ammo while hoping you can do it again. Playing on pub (casual)  servers are fun when you find a playstule that is fun for you. Sometimes I go on to interact with people and other times I'm just trying to have some fun and the people are basically NPC, but I help them if it makes sense.

Edited by Thr34t

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Well just so u know Thre4t... kd ratio doesn't mean much in Squad... I mean it's good... but what's important in Squad, if you want to win the game, is killing the right people. Killing 20 npcs who are zerg rushing is fine, yay its 20 tickets.... but if you'd killed those 2 guys that snuck in and blew your radio and sent you back to mainspawn… you would have saved more tickets and done more for your team. My biggest problem with lack of revivals is that most of the time your team has left all the apcs in main to save tickets, putting you at a disadvantage, but then every time a player doesn't revive you when its clearly safe, they have wasted 1 ticket for no reason except their own kd. So if each player on the team refuses to revive someone during a game, that's 38 tickets wasted.

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As for rally points, I don't see how you could scrap rally points. that's how a squad remains independent... I hate squads demanding fobs to spawn at when they could just jump in a technical and drive and put a rally down in about 20 seconds.

 

As for apc/ifv only squads... well... one is a transport with a gun and one is an infantry fighting vehicle so if your going to have dedicated squads for them , youd have to communicate well with the other squads so the vehicles abilities arent wasted

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2 hours ago, scallops said:

As for rally points, I don't see how you could scrap rally points. that's how a squad remains independent... I hate squads demanding fobs to spawn at when they could just jump in a technical and drive and put a rally down in about 20 seconds.

 

As for apc/ifv only squads... well... one is a transport with a gun and one is an infantry fighting vehicle so if your going to have dedicated squads for them , youd have to communicate well with the other squads so the vehicles abilities arent wasted

Rally's should be used as a backup instead of the main spawn.

 

APC/IFV can be used as Mech-Inf as well.

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45 minutes ago, Phoenixstorm said:

Rally's should be used as a backup instead of the main spawn.

Rally points don't have to be a backup... I think you mean you can use the rally to spawn and save the fob if it's disabled. That's just one rally point tactic among others, and generally used by the defense squads

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2 hours ago, Phoenixstorm said:

Rally's should be used as a backup instead of the main spawn.

 

APC/IFV can be used as Mech-Inf as well.

 

1 hour ago, scallops said:

Rally points don't have to be a backup... I think you mean you can use the rally to spawn and save the fob if it's disabled. That's just one rally point tactic among others, and generally used by the defense squads

I might be wrong. But I think Phoenix means that the mechanic of rallies should be change so that the purpose the serve would be that of a secondary backup spawn.

 

YOu on the other hand are talking about how they can be used tactically with the current mechanics. Two different discussions. And I agree with both. Right now, rallys are very powerful and useful to be just backup. With the Buddy rally it´s just ridiculous how you can change the whole team from being surrounded to being the attacker from the rear (actually happende in Belaya last time I played).

 

Whereas some people think that the mechanic should be changed becaus ehtey consider that current rallies incetivize a gameplay they don´t find satisfactory.

 

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On 18/06/2019 at 12:57 AM, scallops said:

 

You have to abuse teammates standing on top of you just to get a medic and even then it will take almost 3 minutes, for some reason they always sigh on the mic before getting you up.

From your own quote maybe don’t abuse players and they maybe more willing to help you out? 

 

There are a lot of new players to the game, leading by example might be a good start.

I am on aussie servers, and have been in good squads and bad squads like all of us.

I find maturity goes along way towards a good gaming experience.

 

I enjoy playing medic class and from my own experience find that if someone is yelling “get the [email protected]&k here useless medic” 

or asking “can I get a medic please” I know which one has more of a chance to receive my services.

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3 hours ago, scallops said:

Rally points don't have to be a backup... I think you mean you can use the rally to spawn and save the fob if it's disabled. That's just one rally point tactic among others, and generally used by the defense squads

Kind of but not really.

2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

I might be wrong. But I think Phoenix means that the mechanic of rallies should be change so that the purpose the serve would be that of a secondary backup spawn.

3

You aren't that far off, every SL can decide where and when to place their rally. The rally is a temporary regroup option in concept if your Squad got wiped. The current meta is far off and rally daily used as a sort of mini hab with endless spawns. You can even play and win a round without placing a single fob and just play with rally's.

 

Hold your rage I'm not finished yet.

 

I know temporary rally's would be quite problematic so let's talk about options that would improve gameplay and team-play at the same time.

The rally could have a disappear timer (~2.5min) but as long a friendly FOB or APC/IFV is around (~250m) the timer would be on hold&reseted.

That would encourage more communication between the Squad's and some more MECH-INF.

At the same time, solo Squads wandering around would be limited to temporary rally's.

 

They tried the regroup function with the 60 wave-spawn that kind of work but not like intended imo.

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What I'd like to see is rallies being replaced by the ability to spawn on a claimed transport/apc with empty seats. For instance, an M35 troop transport could carry a full squad with 9 respawns, or 2 full squads. Or 12 players and 6 spawns, etc. Maybe add a resource like "uniforms" or "kits" that can be picked up by vehicles at main to fill empty seats. Uniforms use tickets to spawn on the vic. Squad could lock or unlock spawning on their vehicle by other squads. This way the movement of troops is represented by the movement of vehicles with the ability to move those troops. You could even set up a convoy with a couple transports full of uniforms protected by an APC filled with the rest of the squad. Get in position, unload the APC and unlock the transport spawners and you've got an APC, 7 infantry and 34 tickets to work with. Other squads could spawn in and join the fight if they're not busy. The transports could then return to Main and load up more uniforms. It's more realistic and less complicated than rally mechanics, and doesn't nerf ambushing and screening tactics.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Pinpoint said:

From your own quote maybe don’t abuse players and they maybe more willing to help you out? 

No, I only abuse when it becomes obvious they don't want to get me up because they are scared if they put their gun down then a teammate will potentially steal a kill from their kd ratio. Which means it's basically clear for 80m and im behind hard cover with multiple friendlies just walkin over me as I bleed out, with no spawn of my own, plus I have ammo in my bag to help the team etc etc etc… and im made to feel like a lowly peasant beggin the almighty for help only to ruin his day by making him stoop to my low kd ratio level :D

 

as for the rally discussion, yeah I guess I misunderstood what you are saying. The buddy rally is a bit weird I hadn't really thought about it. Maybe they'll scrap it when helicopters are added? Couldn't 18 enemies potentially spawn on top of u right before u stomp the rally? i'd love to see that happen haha

Edited by scallops

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1 hour ago, pinko said:

What I'd like to see is rallies being replaced by the ability to spawn on a claimed transport/apc with empty seats. For instance, an M35 troop transport could carry a full squad with 9 respawns, or 2 full squads. Or 12 players and 6 spawns, etc. Maybe add a resource like "uniforms" or "kits" that can be picked up by vehicles at main to fill empty seats. Uniforms use tickets to spawn on the vic. Squad could lock or unlock spawning on their vehicle by other squads. This way the movement of troops is represented by the movement of vehicles with the ability to move those troops. You could even set up a convoy with a couple transports full of uniforms protected by an APC filled with the rest of the squad. Get in position, unload the APC and unlock the transport spawners and you've got an APC, 7 infantry and 34 tickets to work with. Other squads could spawn in and join the fight if they're not busy. The transports could then return to Main and load up more uniforms. It's more realistic and less complicated than rally mechanics, and doesn't nerf ambushing and screening tactics.

This is interesting but i can already see a way to abuse it. My main field of formal training is in computer science, so whenever i see a new control flow/mechanic for something, i instinctively think "what's the easiest way to break this and make it work totally not the way it was intended to?" xD

If it's easy to break, i redesign it or scrap the design altogether and come up with something else.

 

So, let's see...

Get a single guy from your squad in a vehicle at the start of the round, then have him drive around the map to the best possible positions while the rest of the squad holds their spawn. If he dies it's no big deal, the team lost 6 tickets or so (the cost of 1 player "life" and the cost of a techie/logi/transport/etc). The team also didn't lose all the tickets from guys who would normally move out en masse at the start of the round and take contact along the way. If he doesn't die, he'll get on squad comms and "hey guys, it's clear, spawn on me please". Now imagine multiple squads doing this. It's like a buddy rally on wheels.

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5 hours ago, Burningbeard80 said:

 "hey guys, it's clear, spawn on me please". Now imagine multiple squads doing this. It's like a buddy rally on wheels.

I´m pretty sure many people would be very happy with this.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Burningbeard80 said:

This is interesting but i can already see a way to abuse it. My main field of formal training is in computer science, so whenever i see a new control flow/mechanic for something, i instinctively think "what's the easiest way to break this and make it work totally not the way it was intended to?" xD

If it's easy to break, i redesign it or scrap the design altogether and come up with something else.

 

So, let's see...

Get a single guy from your squad in a vehicle at the start of the round, then have him drive around the map to the best possible positions while the rest of the squad holds their spawn. If he dies it's no big deal, the team lost 6 tickets or so (the cost of 1 player "life" and the cost of a techie/logi/transport/etc). The team also didn't lose all the tickets from guys who would normally move out en masse at the start of the round and take contact along the way. If he doesn't die, he'll get on squad comms and "hey guys, it's clear, spawn on me please". Now imagine multiple squads doing this. It's like a buddy rally on wheels.

Except limited by however many empty seats there were. You'd still only get 18 people there for one transport. If the 6 tickets and opportunity cost of the vehicle isn't enough punishment for travelling blind and unguarded, you could count the lost uniforms as lost tickets too (all the passengers died).

 

We already have buddy rally on wheels. There are wheels and there are buddy rallies. Vehicle rallies would require multiple returns to Main to keep up sustained spawning. Better to drop a HAB at that point.

Edited by pinko
Grammar

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Posted (edited)

Well, 18 is 2 full squads, it's quite a lot of players teleporting. Call me old fashioned, but i think a port of some PR mechanics in addition to Squad's persistent ammo feature would be fine as a start. Especially since reinventing the wheel comes with a set of its own problems and challenges (more iteration/testing/revisions/etc needed, so more chances for things to go wrong in unforeseen ways).

 

Basically, this whole discussion about the current state of Squad boils down to one thing. It's not always fun to run the game in 1-life mode all the time, so we can't punish loss of virtual life that way. As a result, we need another mechanic to do it, like punishing it with tickets and time. TIme between spawns, time spent traveling to the front, time spent setting up a HAB and a flanking rally (before the current buddy rally), and so on.

 

Most people who are in favor of the current speed (not player movement speed since A13, the overall speed at which things happen in an average round on a public server) usually underestimate or disregard the importance of downtime in strategy and immersion.

 

Downtime gives the SLs time to plan things out, allows players to resupply and revive/heal and allows the better team to occupy the better positions (if i wipe a squad and they have to respawn and come in again from somewhat far, i can occupy more ground).

K/D ratios don't matter much in such a scenario, what matters is evicting the enemy and occupying ground. So, a K/D ratio becomes the means to evict them and not the goal in and of itself. In fact, with such mechanics you can achieve the same thing with fire superiority, even if you don't kill that many opponents. People will just leave because they are suppressed and dying actually has a consequence for them.

 

For example, I've had countless rounds of PR where teams didn't lose that many tickets but were forced to concede ground, because they couldn't reinforce every single important position at a moment's notice. A single squad getting wiped was enough to achieve this sometimes, and then they would have to come up with a new plan and execute it instead of piggybacking on rallies laid down by two guys sneaking around in the bushes. Sometimes there was less than a 200 ticket difference between teams (on asset-heavy maps where each team started with 600 or more) and the match ended due to the ticket bleed from capturing the final point.

 

The whole situation also ties in with the reduced lethality in Squad. There is not only reduced consequence for dying, but reduced chance of death in the first place. Pretty much most of the HE in the game seems a bit anemic to say the least, which leaves assets like mortars severely underutilized. Furthermore, armor is that annoying thing that will just come, wipe your squad and won't die after multiple rocket hits, but has to leave at some point. So you use the reduced blast damage to get to some cover, bandage yourself, wait in a building until they leave, revive your medic and let him pick up everyone else thanks to infinite revives and the lack of instadeath. That's the worst case scenario, in the easier cases you can just buddy rally your way through it. In essence, neither side's actions have any substantial risk nor consequence. It's just a lot of shooting and explosions for not much to gain or lose either way, unless it's happening directly on a cap or the tickets are low.

 

I'd prefer it if HE was scary, high power rounds could instakill you, armor was a constant "oh shit" moment waiting to drop on your head and death was around every corner, because this lends consequence to player actions but also makes downtime suspenseful instead of boring. Plus, since it would apply to both sides, it would be its own counter and be balanced as a result. Sure, that IFV could really mess you up, but it would also be in a lot of risk itself if it didn't take that many AT rounds to put out of action.

 

What the current mechanics have done is limit downtime and consequence of action, and this is why the game suffers in a strategic sense, in terms of the players being unable to keep on top of things (the whole round is a constant firefight with no respite during which to strategize) and in terms of immersion (there is no calm before the storm and the consequences for dying have been nerfed, so the actual fights are less dangerous and "wow"-worthy than before). I'd prefer it if combat was further spread apart but had increased meaning to the outcome of the round, in ways other than the current ticket-grinder.

 

 

Edited by Burningbeard80

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41 minutes ago, Burningbeard80 said:

Well, 18 is 2 full squads, it's quite a lot of players teleporting. Call me old fashioned, but i think a port of some PR mechanics in addition to Squad's persistent ammo feature would be fine as a start. Especially since reinventing the wheel comes with a set of its own problems and challenges (more iteration/testing/revisions/etc needed, so more chances for things to go wrong in unforeseen ways).

 

Basically, this whole discussion about the current state of Squad boils down to one thing. It's not always fun to run the game in 1-life mode all the time, so we can't punish loss of virtual life that way. As a result, we need another mechanic to do it, like punishing it with tickets and time. TIme between spawns, time spent traveling to the front, time spent setting up a HAB and a flanking rally (before the current buddy rally), and so on.

 

Most people who are in favor of the current speed (not player movement speed since A13, the overall speed at which things happen in an average round on a public server) usually underestimate or disregard the importance of downtime in strategy and immersion.

 

Downtime gives the SLs time to plan things out, allows players to resupply and revive/heal and allows the better team to occupy the better positions (if i wipe a squad and they have to respawn and come in again from somewhat far, i can occupy more ground).

K/D ratios don't matter much in such a scenario, what matters is evicting the enemy and occupying ground. So, a K/D ratio becomes the means to evict them and not the goal in and of itself. In fact, with such mechanics you can achieve the same thing with fire superiority, even if you don't kill that many opponents. People will just leave because they are suppressed and dying actually has a consequence for them.

 

For example, I've had countless rounds of PR where teams didn't lose that many tickets but were forced to concede ground, because they couldn't reinforce every single important position at a moment's notice. A single squad getting wiped was enough to achieve this sometimes, and then they would have to come up with a new plan and execute it instead of piggybacking on rallies laid down by two guys sneaking around in the bushes. Sometimes there was less than a 200 ticket difference between teams (on asset-heavy maps where each team started with 600 or more) and the match ended due to the ticket bleed from capturing the final point.

 

The whole situation also ties in with the reduced lethality in Squad. There is not only reduced consequence for dying, but reduced chance of death in the first place. Pretty much most of the HE in the game seems a bit anemic to say the least, which leaves assets like mortars severely underutilized. Furthermore, armor is that annoying thing that will just come, wipe your squad and won't die after multiple rocket hits, but has to leave at some point. So you use the reduced blast damage to get to some cover, bandage yourself, wait in a building until they leave, revive your medic and let him pick up everyone else thanks to infinite revives and the lack of instadeath. That's the worst case scenario, in the easier cases you can just buddy rally your way through it. In essence, neither side's actions have any substantial risk nor consequence. It's just a lot of shooting and explosions for not much to gain or lose either way, unless it's happening directly on a cap or the tickets are low.

 

I'd prefer it if HE was scary, high power rounds could instakill you, armor was a constant "oh shit" moment waiting to drop on your head and death was around every corner, because this lends consequence to player actions but also makes downtime suspenseful instead of boring. Plus, since it would apply to both sides, it would be its own counter and be balanced as a result. Sure, that IFV could really mess you up, but it would also be in a lot of risk itself if it didn't take that many AT rounds to put out of action.

 

What the current mechanics have done is limit downtime and consequence of action, and this is why the game suffers in a strategic sense, in terms of the players being unable to keep on top of things (the whole round is a constant firefight with no respite during which to strategize) and in terms of immersion (there is no calm before the storm and the consequences for dying have been nerfed, so the actual fights are less dangerous and "wow"-worthy than before). I'd prefer it if combat was further spread apart but had increased meaning to the outcome of the round, in ways other than the current ticket-grinder.

 

 

Isn't what you're describing essentially v9 where all the clans would pro stack, use the rush meta, matches would last 15 minutes and all the LARP MilSimers got their fee fees hurt and then pissed and moaned so hard on Reddit that OWI had to change the whole game to accommodate them though?

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Posted (edited)

What i'm describing is basically PR, with matches that lasted at least 45-60 minutes on average. I wasn't around for v9, i only got Squad a few months ago.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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10 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Isn't what you're describing essentially v9 where all the clans would pro stack, use the rush meta, matches would last 15 minutes and all the LARP MilSimers got their fee fees hurt and then pissed and moaned so hard on Reddit that OWI had to change the whole game to accommodate them though?

 

10 hours ago, Burningbeard80 said:

What i'm describing is basically PR, with matches that lasted at least 45-60 minutes on average. I wasn't around for v9, i only got Squad a few months ago.

He´s describing PR. 

 

Burningbeard didn´t play v9. Zyfrax, you, didn´t play PR. I played both. V9 was much worse than v12. v12 was much worse than PR (In my opinion). They were very different. That´s a fact. 

 

BUT....v12 was more similar to PR than v13. V13 is by far the most arcade gameplay Squad has given us.

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good concept @pinko keep the ideas flowing. 

 

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