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Funny that you are mentioning WT. There is nothing in WT that is even close to realistic. Their flight models are horrendous even in their "simulator" mode. Even in the current state Squad is far more realistic than War Thunder...

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8 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Not only that Squad itself is such a niche game that has a major player retention problem the community fragmentation factor of something like this could also have ramifications as well considering daily peaks are under 3000 with around 300 empty servers. Think about it for a minute, Squad only retains this tiny core community because it has a few unique features that differentiate it from anything else in the genre. All its going to take is some big studio to come along and steal the same basic idea, package it up with some flashy eye candy and just like all the other previous titles poof most everyone will jump ship and then they'll be a another tiny niche community lamenting the loss of Squad and wanting to mod that game to be like Squad. Be careful what you wish for is what I'm saying.

So i actually got it right. You are afraid that having a "realism mod" or whatever you want to call it is going to fragment the player base. Well, the player base is already fragmented. In case you haven't noticed we are complaining and arguing among ourselves about what is the best direction for the game to take xD

 

In all seriousness though, i don't mind different opinions. But you can't cure community fragmentation by telling people to "just get with the program". And since you can't please everyone all the time either, a certain amount of fragmentation is guaranteed to exist in any game. When the game is out of early access it will be what it will be. Some people will like it and stay, some people will not and leave, and there's nothing you or i can do about it when that happens. That's why we're debating here before that happens. But trying to "squeeze" people to subscribe to a direction they already don't like the game to take won't work in the long run.

 

If anything, it creates a knee jerk reaction to oppose your viewpoint just for the sake of it, since the other guy feels that his opinion is brushed aside, so he's more inclined to do the same to your opinion in retaliation. I'm not saying that's what you do, i'm saying that's the vibe it gives off and perception (especially in a faceless, written medium like a forum) is just as important as content. And the perception i get is "guys, please get with the program or the game will lose players and fail". Well, it will certainly lose us too at some point if we can't play in a way we can enjoy.

There is enough of a difference of opinion present, that i think arguing about fragmentation at this point is spilled milk already. We are discussing what's the proper speed to deploy landing gear,when we've already made a landing (good or bad, time will tell) xD

 

As for some of your other points, the fact that the base engine on which PR is built is technically obsolete has nothing to do with the discussion because we are not debating graphics and sounds, but mechanics. If anything, it's even more reason to admire the work done with so many technical restrictions in place and a closed source basis (at least until BF2 became abandonware, i don't know if they've reversed engineered anything since then).

 

So, what we're arguing in favor of are certain mechanics changes. And if we can't get them through the vanilla game or a mod, we will gradually lose interest and move to other things. The fragmentation is already here and the player retention you worry about is already suffering. A mod will not make it worse. In fact, it will probably make it better because it will keep us playing, when otherwise we would probably move to other games after a while that punish certain player behaviors in favor of a slower, deliberate pacing, proper positioning and logistics.

 

5 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Funny that you are mentioning WT. There is nothing in WT that is even close to realistic. Their flight models are horrendous even in their "simulator" mode. Even in the current state Squad is far more realistic than War Thunder...
 

I don't thing he's mentioning it as an example of super-realism. What he means is that war thunder has quite a few different "levels" of difficulty with easier or harder mechanics and instead of suffering player loss because of it, it manages to keep players because they have more choices in the way they can play the game. That's what we asking for in Squad as well. Let OWI make the game what they want to make it. As long as we can mod it to be more like PR we'll be happy and continue playing it for years.

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On 6/13/2019 at 8:10 PM, EA_SUCKS said:

- no ZOOM for nonscoped guns, only weapon steadiness when pressed SHIFT (but make it last longer, 10 secs?)

 

Only thing I absolutely disagree with. This wouldn't even remotely make the mode any more hardcore.

 

Squad is already a abysmal eye-straining simulator, removing zoom would make no-zoom weapons literally useless outside of CqB. In real life your eyes can focus and get a much clearer sight picture than you can on a flat monitor. The zoom is absolutely essential and would ruin the mode entirely.

 

Outside of that, If this is what it would take to get Squad back to a more enjoyable state I'd be all for it. As I don't see the devs going back on their recent choices(pro-arcadey/casual ).

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Funny that you are mentioning WT. There is nothing in WT that is even close to realistic. Their flight models are horrendous even in their "simulator" mode. Even in the current state Squad is far more realistic than War Thunder...
 

I thought people would know how to interpret this. I was wrong. Some understood though.

 

It had nothing to do quoting example of realism. It was about "different lvls of difficulty". 

 

I could have used (old versions) of EA sports games. In which you could Access a lobby dedicated for players with FULL MANUAL SETTINGS. In that lobby, the game forced you to use certain things that were much harder than the regular semi-asissted default controls, thus creating a much more "realistic" experience because the pace and the mistakes felt more like soccer/football mistakes and rythm.

 

See? That was a sports game... look I used a sports game as an example for my point. I hope it´s easier to understand now.

 

BTW. WT simulation mode has no name tags,...SQUAD does. A HUGE COLORFUL NAMETAG appears through walls and wods at any distance so you don´t shoot your mates. So...

Edited by Nightingale87

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In the end of the day, no one really wanted any actual "hardcore" mode, they just want something that sounds more "hardcore" than the rest of the player base so that they can feel special. A real hardcore mode means that you will be unable to access constantly updating GPS, unable to radio your team if out of range or due to terrain and everytime you respawn you forget about how you died so that you can't take advantage of your previous knowledge regarding enemy position to avoid getting shot again.  

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3 hours ago, Noobgamer said:

In the end of the day, no one really wanted any actual "hardcore" mode, they just want something that sounds more "hardcore" than the rest of the player base so that they can feel special.  

Speak for yourself. 

 

If I follow your logic, then you feel more spacial than COD/BF players becuse you play SQUAD. Oh!...you´re so badass! Cmon! really? DO YOU FEEL SPECIAL BECAUSE YOU PLAY SQUAD?

 

If you do...the fact that you feel special because you play a game with "harder" settings doesn´t mean that´s the reason most people want to be able to play with those settings. 

 

BElive it or not, there´s something more than EGO in playing videogames.

 

4 hours ago, Noobgamer said:

 A real hardcore mode means that you will be unable to access constantly updating GPS, unable to radio your team if out of range or due to terrain and everytime you respawn you forget about how you died so that you can't take advantage of your previous knowledge regarding enemy position to avoid getting shot again.  

Being "realistic" and being "real" are two different things. Otherwise we wouldn´t have two words for that now would we? 

It´s a matter of degree, not a binary question.

 

A game with no magazine representation and bullet count is less "realistic" than a game with bullent count.

A game with enemies shown on the map is less "realistic" than a game with less info on the map.

A game without a stamina system is less "realistic" than a game with a stamina bar.

 

See? Levels of realism...

 

A game in which you sneeze because of all the dust around you and are unable to shoot at the enemy is more "realistic" than a game in which you don´t sneeze. 

 

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE ADVOCATING FOR A "HARDCORE" MODE WANT PLAYERS TO BE SNEEZING AROUND?????

 

Think about it...

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56 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

See? Levels of realism...

I see your point. Just for example often times Squad takes one element of "realism" way off the charts but completely neglects to implement corresponding attributes to the equation.

 

Case in point, take the new Skorpo map for example. Most of the vehicles can barely even climb the steep grades which from a realism standpoint makes complete sense. However, on the other hand the actual load capacities of the vehicles are ridiculously low.

 

So say you're on the American team in the RAASv1 layer. You load the Logistics truck up with 600 build and 2400 ammo which gives a TOW and only 4 rockets with 400 ammo left over. Now think about that for a minute. A duece-and-half can carry close to 5000/10,000 lbs. on/off road. This would be the equivalent of the launcher and at least 50 rockets, probably even more only limited by the space taken up by the protective cases.

 

Now consider it takes you exactly 10 minutes 37 seconds to literally crawl at a snail's pace to the premium mountain top spot over looking the valley, another 3 minutes to drop the FOB and build the launcher and finally 15 minutes into the match you've got 4 rockets to fire which by the way only have less than half the range of a real BGM-71.

 

 

So tell me, how is that "realism"? That's an exercise in futility that only idiots like us have become accustomed to is what that is.

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9 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Case in point, take the new Skorpo map for example. Most of the vehicles can barely even climb the steep grades which from a realism standpoint makes complete sense. However, on the other hand the actual load capacities of the vehicles are ridiculously low.

 

So say you're on the American team in the RAASv1 layer. You load the Logistics truck up with 600 build and 2400 ammo which gives a TOW and only 4 rockets with 400 ammo left over. Now think about that for a minute. A duece-and-half can carry close to 5000/10,000 lbs. on/off road. This would be the equivalent of the launcher and at least 50 rockets, probably even more only limited by the space taken up by the protective cases.

 

Now consider it takes you exactly 10 minutes 37 seconds to literally crawl at a snail's pace to the premium mountain top spot over looking the valley, another 3 minutes to drop the FOB and build the launcher and finally 15 minutes into the match you've got 4 rockets to fire which by the way only have less than half the range of a real BGM-71.

 

 

So tell me, how is that "realism"? That's an exercise in futility that only idiots like us have become accustomed to is what that is.

It´s funny that you said all that introduced by "Case in point…."

 

Is it really "in point"? I´m sorry but I can´t even see how that is related to the OP or to a new game mode. Your example is so specific that it is very hard to put in "in point" in the frame of the current discussion.

 

I´m not saying you´re wrong. Just that I find it so specific and "off point" that it´s hard to see the relevance in this specific thread. Maybe it´s a thread on it´s own.

 

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using COD4 as an example; hardcore mode just made a kill easier. instead of 2-4 hits to kill it was 1-2.

The problem with this was that the softcore standard mode "pro" players absolutely destroyed the hardcore "pro" players because they needed better aim and gun control to win in a 1 on 1. This happened in match conditions in hardcore and softcore modes when teams tried to play each other.

 

better to call your new mod "slow mode for old people" :) if you are kidding yourself you can call it "tactical mod" :P 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

It´s funny that you said all that introduced by "Case in point…."

 

Is it really "in point"? I´m sorry but I can´t even see how that is related to the OP or to a new game mode. Your example is so specific that it is very hard to put in "in point" in the frame of the current discussion.

 

I´m not saying you´re wrong. Just that I find it so specific and "off point" that it´s hard to see the relevance in this specific thread. Maybe it´s a thread on it´s own.

 

Lol! And sports games and sneezing have anything to do with "Hardcore Mode"?

 

I was citing a specific example of a current part of Squad that's a week old and completely relates to specific attributes and features that fit within the framework of such a mode. Who's the one off topic?

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7 hours ago, suds said:

better to call your new mod "slow mode for old people" :) if you are kidding yourself you can call it "tactical mod" :P 

Yeah! Sure! I think that´s great name.

 

7 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Lol! And sports games and sneezing have anything to do with "Hardcore Mode"?

Just read it again if you didn´t understand. It´s quite clear.

 

7 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I was citing a specific example of a current part of Squad that's a week old and completely relates to specific attributes and features that fit within the framework of such a mode. 

I´m pretty sure that most people who are advocating for a "hardcore" gamemode are not very cncerned with the actual load a specific vehicle is able to carry. Even if they did I think you´re example is SO specific that makes the argument extra complicated and doesn´t reach the point of whether a new game mode is necessary/desired and how that game mode should be.

 

Do you want to make that mountain smaller? do you want to make those logis more capable of carrying things? I don´t get the point of that.

 

I think that at this point those questions are not that relevant as questions like,

 

do we eant insta death in that desired game mode?

do we want buddy rallies? or rallies at all?

Why or why not?

Which part of the community would like to play that mode?

Would it attract new buyers?

Why exaclty do we need that?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

 

 

Just read it again if you didn´t understand. It´s quite clear.

 

I´m pretty sure that most people who are advocating for a "hardcore" gamemode are not very cncerned with the actual load a specific vehicle is able to carry. Even if they did I think you´re example is SO specific that makes the argument extra complicated and doesn´t reach the point of whether a new game mode is necessary/desired and how that game mode should be.

 

Do you want to make that mountain smaller? do you want to make those logis more capable of carrying things? I don´t get the point of that.

 

I think that at this point those questions are not that relevant as questions like,

 

do we eant insta death in that desired game mode?

do we want buddy rallies? or rallies at all?

Why or why not?

Which part of the community would like to play that mode?

Would it attract new buyers?

Why exaclty do we need that?

 

 

Trouble is you're not seeing the big picture though. Squad is a combined arms game and billed as such from the start so considering all the elements that would go into a "Hardcore Mode" including the all the parameters of vehicles would have to be considered as well. Simply focusing on insta death and buddy rallies and a few other details related to infantry seems a bit myopic to me is all.

 

As such, my example of the Logistics truck and how its currently a contradictory juxtaposition of realistic performance and handling yet dovetails with an essentially neutered logistics system is completely relevant to the topic of casual vs. hardcore mode.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think he means that what you're saying is irrelevant, because it does matter. Maybe he's saying that your example is very specific (a specific location on a specific map) for a problem that is quite widespread and affects numerous factions across a variety of maps.

 

Vehicle driving mechanics are "funky" to say the least and from what i hear, it's been that way for quite some time. That's a matter that definitely ties in to the considerations of this thread because it affects supply runs and the ease of traversing the battlefield, but maybe the exact specifics of the issue belong in a dedicated "fix the vehicle torque/traction/handling" thread, just to make things easier to follow.

 

One thing is mostly about game design choices that affect the gameplay loop on the broad strategic sense, the other is fixing a specific asset class to behave closer to its real-life counterpart. They are related issues, but still worthy of separate discussions.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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40 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Trouble is you're not seeing the big picture though. Squad is a combined arms game and billed as such from the start so considering all the elements that would go into a "Hardcore Mode" including the all the parameters of vehicles would have to be considered as well. Simply focusing on insta death and buddy rallies and a few other details related to infantry seems a bit myopic to me is all.

 

As such, my example of the Logistics truck and how its currently a contradictory juxtaposition of realistic performance and handling yet dovetails with an essentially neutered logistics system is completely relevant to the topic of casual vs. hardcore mode.

 

7 minutes ago, Burningbeard80 said:

I don't think he means that what you're saying is irrelevant, because it does matter. Maybe he's saying that your example is very specific (a specific location on a specific map) for a problem that is quite widespread and affects numerous factions across a variety of maps.

 

Vehicle driving mechanics are "funky" to say the least and from what i hear, it's been that way for quite some time. That's a matter that definitely ties in to the considerations of this thread because it affects supply runs and the ease of traversing the battlefield, but maybe the exact specifics of the issue belong in a dedicated "fix the vehicle torque/traction/handling" thread, just to make things easier to follow.

 

One thing is mostly about game design choices that affect the gameplay loop on the broad strategic sense, the other is fixing a specific asset class to behave closer to its real-life counterpart. They are related issues, but still worthy of separate discussions.

A much better explanation. Thank you veyr much.

+1

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NWI just dropped another update to Sandstorm improving the hardcore mode, come on OWI, where is the Hardcore mode in Squad? :(

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15 hours ago, suds said:

using COD4 as an example; hardcore mode just made a kill easier. instead of 2-4 hits to kill it was 1-2.

The problem with this was that the softcore standard mode "pro" players absolutely destroyed the hardcore "pro" players because they needed better aim and gun control to win in a 1 on 1. This happened in match conditions in hardcore and softcore modes when teams tried to play each other.

 

better to call your new mod "slow mode for old people" :) if you are kidding yourself you can call it "tactical mod" :P 

 

 

 

 

How about the "no teleport mod" or "project reality"? In all seriousness though I will be modding the game mode on release if the game is like it is now. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

So, these are all from browsing the Squad reddit the past hour or so:

 

 

I think it's time some of the more controversial V13 changes got looked at. I am ambivalent on the speed changes (you can run faster but you have to stop sooner, so i don't consider it overpowered), but buddy rallies and the lack of instadeath have made the majority of public games a case of rally-spawn-rush-die-repeat.

 

Take a look through those threads, people are actually making some good points about how the current meta not only harms tactics, but also provides no incentive for rookie SLs to improve, because they have been turned into glorified spawn points. Even worse, players who can play better have no incentive to do so anymore.

 

Case in point, i was the single squad medic last night, playing with experienced guys from a well known clan that participates in 1-life events. We were on Kohat, trying to control a certain avenue of approach, so we had the usual emplacements on a ridge and it became a series of long range engagements as the enemy was trying to close the range and push us off our position. You know how this goes, people start peeking, some get downed, but as long as you are not cresting the hill and moving between cover, even as a single medic you can keep picking your guys up. It's pretty manageable unless the enemy either gets close enough to blanket you with grenades, or you get other forms of HE (enemy armor fire, mortars, etc) landing on you. Well, some squadmates were giving up within a 30 meter radius of me, when i could have revived them in less than a minute.

 

Now these guys were not stupid, they were actually very competent, made good tactical decisions and i enjoyed playing with them a lot. Our FOB was actually placed some distance away from the defense point and in a good place to overlook the next attack flag, which we ended up taking through a combination of covering fire from our emplacements and sending a small team of 3 down to storm it, with a bit of help from other squads. It speaks volumes however about the mentality these changes encourage and how everyone is then forced to adapt to a single playstyle or die.

 

Seeing experienced and capable players value their tickets so low really hammered home for me something we've already talked about recently. It's not that these guys couldn't wait for a medic. They actually did in other engagements later in the round and they also revived each other often, so i only had to bring them up to full heatlh afterwards, they were a very good squad. The reason they were giving up with a medic less than 10 meters away (yes, this happened twice within the span of 2 minutes, as i was telling them i'm right behind them) is because it was the optimal thing to do at the time in terms of maximizing our gains. Just get back into it as soon as possible and keep laying the fire down.

 

Why? Because everyone abuses buddy rallies and endless revives. They had to keep hammering that compound with support weapons so our 3-man assault element could get there in-time and prevent everyone on the opposing team from getting revived for the fourth time in a row, just as i had been reviving them.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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The medic system is essentially designed to punish reviving into combat, so you clear everything first deal with all the threats etc and then revive

 

The issue in Squad is that one combat starts it doesn't really end very often. So aside from a few common scenarios where you can safely revive in combat, (mass death around FOBs, dead behind crests of hills, or in windows) or out of combat (some lone marksman gets one kill before being riddled with bullets) it's often better to let your buddies respawn and keep pushing enemy spawns hard. This has the side benefits of respawns setting up flanks in the ongoing battle and/or protecting the spawn point, and hey if they're lucky they'll catch a 10 second rally spawn, faster than a revive would be anyway.

 

So I think it all comes back to FOBs and Rallies again. The revive system will never really work correctly if respawning is too generous. It has to be paced so a Squad can clear the enemy and then revive in safety, pretty rare in Squad.

 

As for permadeath, while permadeath has an important function to stop some of the more abusive revives into combat, that's about the limits of it. More permadeath means less revives, but it also means more respawns, obviously not a miracle fix.

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12 hours ago, EA_SUCKS said:

NWI just dropped another update to Sandstorm improving the hardcore mode, come on OWI, where is the Hardcore mode in Squad? :(

Sandstorm is pretty much feature complete so NWI have the time to create new modes. 

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4 hours ago, Melbo said:

Sandstorm is pretty much feature complete so NWI have the time to create new modes. 

makes sense then, thx

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, EA_SUCKS said:

NWI just dropped another update to Sandstorm improving the hardcore mode, come on OWI, where is the Hardcore mode in Squad? :(

Idk, I own I:S and the "Hardcore Mode" still seems like arcade/casual to me.

 

Just curious, what would "Hardcore Mode" consist of in Squad anyway? What attributes and parameters would such a mode be compromised of?

 

Focusing only on infantry are we talking much slower movement & stance animations, low stamina threshold, much slower stamina regeneration, much higher sway, higher spread & recoil, much lower TTK, absolutely no HUD, headshot instagibs, no rallies, hydration levels and opening up a paper map? Just wondering what yours and everyone elses definition of this mode actually is?

Edited by Zylfrax791

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2 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Idk, I own I:S and the "Hardcore Mode" still seems like arcade/casual to me.

 

Just curious, what would "Hardcore Mode" consist of in Squad anyway? What attributes and parameters would such a mode be compromised of?

 

Focusing only on infantry are we talking much slower movement & stance animations, low stamina threshold, much slower stamina regeneration, much higher sway, higher spread & recoil, much lower TTK, absolutely no HUD, headshot instagibs, no rallies, hydration levels and opening up a paper map? Just wondering what yours and everyone elses definition of this mode actually is?

Well, although some of the things you mention might be desired by some players, we don´t need to go into that as of now. 

 

Don´t yet go to so specific things. I would bet my horse that most players here that want to see a "hardcore" mode, are not even thinking about things like that. I would bet, that what people here want is basically a change in mechanics, not specific content.

 

For example, NO Buddy rally. Probably no rallies at all, or rallies with a short timer before it disappears. Mainly spawning points would be habs and base.

 

Habs. Well maybe a bit easier to disable. 

 

Insta death. Not necessarily headshot insta death. But dying twice in less than a minute. or 2 minutes. 

 

Just those two things would make the game, maybe not "hardcore" but "hardcore" in comparison to the current gameplay. 

 

And of all those changes I´d say that just by making the rally changes, most people would be satisfied.

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6 hours ago, Melbo said:

Sandstorm is pretty much feature complete so NWI have the time to create new modes. 

 

 

New official Coop game mode Hardcore Checkpoint

  • Movement speed is significantly reduced. Enemies are harder. Friendly teammate indicators only show when a teammate is nearby. Objective indicators are hidden in the HUD.
  • If you die, you will respawn with a Mosin bolt-action rifle and Makarov pistol. You must resupply at a Supply Crate to get your Loadout.
  • There are only two Supply Crates. One will spawn on a random objective, the other will always spawn on the final objective. You can only resupply once on a Supply Crate. Small Ammo Boxes will give some ammunition for the weapons you are carrying.

 

It's simple, and it's quick, dirty, and experimental. And because it was successful, now they're expanding it, adding it to PVP modes, etc. Isn't it weirder that's in a released game and not an alpha?

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3 hours ago, Good-Try Greg said:

 

 

New official Coop game mode Hardcore Checkpoint

  • Movement speed is significantly reduced. Enemies are harder. Friendly teammate indicators only show when a teammate is nearby. Objective indicators are hidden in the HUD.
  • If you die, you will respawn with a Mosin bolt-action rifle and Makarov pistol. You must resupply at a Supply Crate to get your Loadout.
  • There are only two Supply Crates. One will spawn on a random objective, the other will always spawn on the final objective. You can only resupply once on a Supply Crate. Small Ammo Boxes will give some ammunition for the weapons you are carrying.

 

It's simple, and it's quick, dirty, and experimental. And because it was successful, now they're expanding it, adding it to PVP modes, etc. Isn't it weirder that's in a released game and not an alpha?

 

Sandstorm has a complete foundation so they can spend the developer resources on things like this but Squad needs those resources to continue building the foundation.

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