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dolmaface

Lets discuss how helicopters will tremendously improve Squads mechanics

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Posted (edited)

I want to discuss how helicopters will change the game, and how I believe it will have a tremendously positive impact.

 

*This post really is focusing on maps > 3^2 km, which is really where the future of this game lies

 

Lets start off with the most obvious effects.

  • Helicopters will make transportation far easier
  • Helicopters will make building HABs/FOBs far easier
  • Helicopters will make supply runs far easier

 

These are pretty major impacts, that completely changes how the game is played. Right now transportation, building HABs, and running logistics is a pain in the ass.

  • No one likes running miles to get places, and driving logis/trucks still takes awhile on large maps (especially with bumpy terrain)
  • Since HABs require a lot of coordination and time, in public games few are built, and generally are built directly on CAPs. Few flanking/tactical FOBs are ever built
  • Usually the team has only one dedicated logistics runner, and sometimes there isn't even one on many public servers!

 

In order to resolve these current problems the developers have made rallies more prevalent since they are easier to place, makes transportation easier, and allow for flanking. However, these super powerful rallies have their downfalls

  • Rallies greatly lowers the value of survival (since you always have a nearby backup spawn)
  • Rallies make squad wipes pretty rare (especially with buddy rally)
  • Rallies encourage the spawn, gun, die, rinse and repeat methodology
  • Rallies reduces the impact of the entire teamwork system that Squad is largely based on since they don't require any coordination with the rest of your team

 

With the introduction of helicopters, however, the game no longer needs these super powerful rallies anymore! Helicopters essentially provide everything that rallies do, and don't come with all the negative pitfalls! Rallies can, and should, be nerfed to compensate for addition of choppers. Instead, the game will focus more around building HABs rather than rallies for spawning.

 

Yes, at first everyone will be trying to fly and whole Squads will get wiped by bad pilots, but in due time it will improve. Also, helicopters will also add a great immersion factor to the game, and will make transportation a lot more exhilarating.

 

TLDR; Helicopters will replace a lot of the mechanics that rallies provide, and thus allow for a better gameplay experience.

 

Edited by dolmaface

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I can pretty much agree with everything you say. The most important thing for me, you can counter helicopters in a meaningful way that increases immersion (shoot them down), while buddy rallies are very hard to counter. Instead of having to run around the forests trying to despawn rallies, you can shoot an RPG to a pilot's face, wipe an entire squad and feel good about it xD

 

Plus, maybe we can see dedicated mortar squads more often and strategic FOBs to control choke points, since it will be much easier to supply them. I expect things will play similar to Project Reality where pilots were busiest at the start of the round, helping the team with initial positioning and FOB placement. Once that phase was over and the team had FOBs down, the pilots didn't have too much to do, apart from moving a squad or two or reinforcements from main every now and then. So they simply resupplied all the FOBs that had weapon emplacements and any squads out in the field as needed. Another side effect was that since transport helicopters respanwed in 5 minutes and only cost 5-10 tickets or so (out of 600 per team), they were also used for reconnaisance. Fly around the map, get shot at, mark enemies for the rest of the team.

 

I think we should get a few "redline" mechanics and limits too, when you exceed them bad things happen to the chopper:

  • Collision model for the rotors: So that people don't land in the middle of forests.
  • A limit on how fast you can descend in a hover: It limits unrealistic insertions and makes choppers very possible to counter. It will also make it a better option to use ropes/rapelling down the chopper from a hover, instead of landing it in the middle of a firefight, which looks cool. If you descend faster while hovering, you start descending even faster until you slam into the ground or get out of the hover (get some speed up in any direction) to regain lift.
  • A limit on maximum speed: Go too fast, and the chopper starts rolling left or right (depending on the direction the rotor turns). Keep going faster and things start to break.

All of the above effects are based on actual phenomena that occur in real helicopters. We don't need high quality flight models found in dedicated flight sims for Squad, just a simplified version of these effects because they influence the way helicopters will be flown in combat.

 

I actually registered on this forum to talk about helicopters, it was my first post xD

In that topic i covered supply issues, their usefulness for more tactical gameplay (logistics, more/better FOBs, more flanking, etc), proposed control schemes for mouse and joystick control and an explanation of the "redline" effects i proposed.

 

It's a wall of text that borders on an essay, but if you want to take look here it is:

 

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Yup.. During my later years of playing PR I would fly helis exclusively. I look at Squad like it's an evolution of PR. A lot of the game mechanics are still more or less based on the same core ideas. As such, the impact of helicopters on gameplay could be somewhat comparable.

 

Air logistics can make or break the match in many different ways. Planning and communication are going to play a huge role in which team gets the edge. It's perfect from a game design perspective, since promoting communication and tactics is probably near the top of the list of goals the devs have for the game overall. They ride a fine line between punishing those who decide to not follow the "rules" and keeping the gameplay fun for a wide audience. Blundering a couple heli's can teach a very important lesson.

 

Running heli transport is not as simple as "we want to get dropped off at H7 1 1, GO!!" You have to clear the LZ. Probe for AA or emplacements. Make sure you can land quickly and safely without loitering. The team that has squad leaders working together to clear landing zones and warn the pilots of threats will have a lot better chance of winning. Being a good pilot has less to do with actual flying ability and more to do with good judgement. I used to love denying cocky squad leaders their desired LZ when I knew I'd get shot down otherwise. Too many times I've seen other pilots and myself get pressured into doing something risky and end up loosing a chopper with a full squad. "A 5 minute walk is better than a hot metal coffin" I might be misquoting that, it's been years.

 

The immersion factor alone is going to fundamentally change how Squad feels, kind of like when we first got vehicles. I'm pretty excited about it.

 

Still waiting for more detailed information on what the whole plan is for implementing helicopters. Will we have SAMs and flares? Rotor collision? What kind of flight mechanics are planned, is it going to be difficult enough to take a couple hours to master but at the same time practical? FASTROPES? Cool pilots kits with face masks for backers/ founders if the Steam inventory ever gets fixed? Do you need a tester???

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2 hours ago, contact said:

Air logistics can make or break the match in many different ways.

 

Witch the current logistic system which takes ages to unload anything. I highly doubt air logistic would be fun or useful if you give away the radio's position immediately 

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8 hours ago, contact said:

Yup.. During my later years of playing PR I would fly helis exclusively. I look at Squad like it's an evolution of PR. A lot of the game mechanics are still more or less based on the same core ideas. As such, the impact of helicopters on gameplay could be somewhat comparable.

I´m very curious about one major thing though.

 

In PR there is a limited view deistance. In squad that is much MUCH more. So if they design AA wapons with realistic ranges and very long range of vew then choppers would be very easy to target, Wouldn´t they?

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View distance would indeed be an issue, helicopters would easily give away where you are.

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

I´m very curious about one major thing though.

 

In PR there is a limited view deistance. In squad that is much MUCH more. So if they design AA wapons with realistic ranges and very long range of vew then choppers would be very easy to target, Wouldn´t they?

You had an audible warning when you got locked by a missile and you had countermeasure flares you could launch. It was a bit simplified and unrealistic, since these were passive heat seeking missiles for the most part. In reality you only get a warning tone when you get locked by radar, because it emits radiation and your passive sensors can pick it up and tell when it goes from scan mode to target tracking/lock mode due to the change in the emitted pulses (frequency/energy, etc). Radar lock is countered by launching chaff (thin metallic strips launched in bundles) and not flares.

 

Heat seekers on the other hand do not emit anything, they are passive and go after your exhaust gas and the hot parts of your aircraft. These are in fact countered by flares which burn at a higher temperature in order to give the missile a more attractive target (a nifty little trick is to turn into the sun, launch flares, cut your engines to reduce temperature and turn away). But you cannot know if they have locked you in advance. Since this is a major problem for helicopters which fly lower and slower than fixed-wing aircraft (you get a much shorter reaction time window and you have to actually see the missile yourself), engineers came up with the missile proximity warning system. This is a sensor that still cannot tell when you get locked by a passive seeking missile, but it can detect fast moving objects coming your way and it gives off a warning tone. It's not as good as knowing you are locked (you lose a few seconds of reaction time), but it's better than nothing. Some of the more modern helicopters, mainly those in attack roles, also have infrared jammers, small beacons that emit IR light in various directions and wavelengths to confuse the missile.

 

Overall, the increased view distance is not necessarily a bad thing. PR was balanced but it was unrealistic. There was a limited view distance, but the countermeasures you had on helicopters and aircraft were a bit hit and miss. I was practicing in a test map that had all vehicles available with a friend and most of the times, whoever launched first got a kill. Sure, your flares rarely managed to spoof the missile, but they couldn't see you that easily either, so it was balanced. The problem was that in combination with the simplified handling, it made players work around it in ways that are not realistic at all.

 

Attack choppers were especially affected by unrealistic play, crawling across the map in a slow hover as high as possible, so the infantry below wouldn't see them. However, they had magnified optics and could see what has happening down below, but at a limited distance. Imagine a sphere around the chopper as the visible distance. If you go too high, the circle that is the projection of that sphere on the ground below gets smaller and smaller, so instead of seeing things farther out the higher you went, it was the opposite. What players did was hover outside unmagnified view range until they spotted a target with their magnified sensors. Then they either launched guided missiles (if their chopper had them) or made a diving attack with guns and rockets and exited the area at low level with the speed they had picked up in the dive, popping flares as they went. Then they spent another 3-5 minutes climbing back up to their perch and repeat. In reality, a chopper hovering that high will get picked up by everything, from eyes to sensors, and have a bunch of different weapons, guided and unguided, targeting it in no time.

 

Transport helicopters (the ones we'll get in Squad) were flown differently, because you had to touch down at some point to deliver troops and supplies. These were flown in a more realistic manner, making use of terrain cover and approaching from unexpected angles to unload their cargo. Still, if you got a missile launched on you, there was not much you could do but pop flares and pray. So, in order to work around this danger, some of the smaller and more maneuverable transport helicopters were used in a similar fashion to attack choppers by experienced players. The would get as high as possible, start a prolonged, near vertical dive when close to their desired landing zone, level off, touch down and unload. This was impressive to watch, but it is something that cannot be done in reality, because of phenomena that i described in my previous post on this thread (and in more detail on the thread i linked).

 

With the increased view distance in Squad and if these "redlines" i talked about are implemented in a simplified manner, i think helicopters in general will be forced to adopt realistic tactics in order to survive. What would be needed to balance it out is to give them effective countermeasures. I'm not saying that the missile should always go for the countermeasure, but with proper maneuvering it should. If you just pop flares while you hover you should still probably die, even if the missile does go for the flare (the flare is near you, so the blast still gets you). But if you pop flares and manage to put some distance between you and the flares (evasive dive, speed increase, sharp turn, etc), a heat-seeking missile (especially the simple/unsophisticated ones usually carried by soldiers in a man-portable launcher) should probably go for the flare instead of your helicopter. Flares burn at a few thousand degrees, which is higher than the temperature of the chopper's exhaust gas and much higher than the operating temperature of a turbine engine.

 

However, a sneaky APC with an autocannon, a  Spandrel or super-FOB emplacements (kornet, tow) can still and will ruin your day if they catch you on a hover. This happened in PR too and it is also realistic. However, transport choppers were cheap (i think they were 5-10 tickets and each team started with 600 tickets on a normal AAS map) and they respawned every five minutes, so it was not a big deal.

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Since the transport helos are just flying logis that is vulnerable to all kind of weapons they cannot fly in any contested area unless very low and fast. So for troop transports you could expect that they need to land several hundred meters from the point. If the enemy is irregulars the amount of AAA on a FOB would mean a quick death for a helo. The dishkas and ZSU will be very effective in the point defence AA role against Helos. The main benefits is the ability to bring supplies to fobs far from main and the ability to move troops from one area to another. But doing a hot drop on the point will most likely not work out if the enemy have any kind of firepower ready.

As for SAM:s a successful tactic is terrain hugging. The Russians avoided stingers by flying low in the valleys since the stinger could not lock on to the helos, the heat signature wasnt distinct enough to separate from the ground. Other tactics used is preemptively popping flares when flying in dangerous areas.

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That is exactly my experience from PR, but that's not a bad thing either (and if the pilot is good, he can still get you where you need to be by flying a terrain masking profile).

 

Currently 90% of players will beeline for the point and you get a close quarters meat grinder until a team runs out of tickets. It becomes boring after a while, no matter how exciting a CQB battle might be. I think choppers might indirectly influence and change that meta.

 

Almost everyone places FOBs directly on the capture points too, so the defenders invariably get taken down if the attackers have the slightest idea of how to play the game. Defenders sit snugly inside the cap, watch a couple of entrances and get sucked into a false sense of security, subconsciously acting as if the enemy is not close because they can't see the enemy. Or they just post lookouts on the highest observation points like tower, which are the first things to be suppressed and attacked by enemy machine guns and grenadiers. But even if the enemy doesn't start shooting right away, having your entire squad inside the cap limits your lookout potential tremendously, so a few of the attackers can sneak around and start trickling in, climbing over a wall or two. And then, because you placed the FOB directly on the point (where enemies are obliged to come in order to win the round), the HAB is overrun too. Combat starts, both sides start taking casualties, but the attackers can easily respawn and reinforce from multiple directions thanks to the buddy rallies and keep coming. Meanwhile, the defenders end up not having a place to spawn and being unable to reinforce the cap, which is then lost as well.

 

Yesterday i was playing a game where the SL placed a FOB in a very good, defensible location between 2 points. Well, as soon as we secured our compound, placed some defences to block the entrances and spread out around the buildings to be able to actually see what's going on, he told us to move west towards the cap, because the other SLs were complaining to him to put more bodies on the point. Guess what, literally as soon as we made our way out of the compound, our HAB was overrun. The rest of our team died before we got there, and they had no place to spawn. We lost both the cap and our FOB, because nobody understood the value of defending and holding a position, except out SL who was probably yelled into submission. The poor guy starting apologizing, but i told him it's not his fault the rest of the team doesn't understand the value of controlling territory outside of the caps themselves.

 

Maybe things will slightly and gradually change once helicopters are in. I hope that pilots who know what they're doing will refuse to hot drop us onto a point directly. They will drop us in a concealed valley with a supply crate so we can build a FOB. Then we will have to move out from the FOB, set a rally along the way (preferably not directly in line with the FOB and point, in order to keep the enemy guessing about the FOB's bearing/location) and use that one as the spawn point for the assault. Meanwhile, if the FOB is in a good location and the helicopter can keep making drops without being seen, another squad could put some mortars down and support our assault, being supplied by the helicopters. This in turn makes the FOB audible by the enemy and they might search for it and try to destroy it, which will give the mortar squad some direct combat opportunities too. It's much more dynamic and unpredictable.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

I´m very curious about one major thing though.

 

In PR there is a limited view deistance. In squad that is much MUCH more. So if they design AA wapons with realistic ranges and very long range of vew then choppers would be very easy to target, Wouldn´t they?

15 hours ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

View distance would indeed be an issue, helicopters would easily give away where you are.

 

The effect of view distance on choppers is something that has been talked about a lot in the past. The good news is the devs recognize this, and in some maps limited view distance with fog. When Talil first released I was very curious, and tested the the view distance vs Kashan in Project Reality, and they are the same!

 

The fog of war is a very important aspect of Project Reality's  balance, because otherwise you could fly high in a chopper from the opposite end of the map, and watch where all the enemy choppers supply FOBs.

 

On 6/7/2019 at 11:48 PM, Burningbeard80 said:

he most important thing for me, you can counter helicopters in a meaningful way that increases immersion (shoot them down), while buddy rallies are very hard to counter. Instead of having to run around the forests trying to despawn rallies, you can shoot an RPG to a pilot's face, wipe an entire squad and feel good about it xD

This is another excellent point. Despawning rallies is neither fun, rewarding, or immersive. Even if you do successfully despawn a rally, it isn't very long before another just pops ups; it becomes a game of whack a mole!

 

With choppers you will also be able to spot/hear enemy squads getting dropped off, and then you will have to hunt them! which is way more exciting

 

9 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Since the transport helos are just flying logis that is vulnerable to all kind of weapons they cannot fly in any contested area unless very low and fast. 

This made me think of something; by relying on helos instead of rallies a frontline would be better established. Right now it is way to easy to flank the enemy with rallies. If rallies are limited to only being placed within a ~75m radius of friendly radios/apc/flag, then the only way to get behind the enemy is via helos, trucks, or walking. Therefore, flanking would be far more difficult because

  • Helos and trucks make noise
  • Helos are likely to be shot down
  • Walking takes awhile
  • And your squad will have only one life since you won't be able to place a rally far away from FOBs/apcs/flags
Edited by dolmaface

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Posted (edited)

I added a little over here before I saw this thread. 

 

TLDR;

Buddy rallies should be nerfed/removed with the addition of helicopters prompting better use of assets and considerable punishment for abandoning/losing assets. 

AA should be limited to unguided weapons.

Attack Helicopters Unnecessary

Transport Helicopters Should you be able to carry 3000 supplies and 10 soldiers? Should internal cargo space be limited to one or the other or a balance? This if implemented should be modular, i.e. one trip you can take soldiers, one trip you take supplies, or a mix of both (instead of having to switch airframes). 

 

Another thing I didn't talk about was scouting/hovering above the map. Maybe a ceiling/view distance limitation could be added, to prevent the necessity of adding MANPADS/SAMS. 

Edited by BroBeans

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Posted (edited)

I read your input in the other thread as well, but i'll answer here (maybe we should ask a moderator to merge topics?)

 

Manpads would work fine and be balanced, as long as they are somewhat realistic and proper countermeasures are given to the helicopters. A missile does not have infinite maneuverability, nor does a seeker have infinite resolution. I don't know how hard it is to get it right in a ballpark kind of way, but i don't expect full flight sim fidelity either. As long as it feels like both players (pilot and AA operator) have a reasonable chance to come out on top, it would be ok.

 

Also, keep in mind that the majority of times in PR, as infantry we ignored enemy air assets unless we could directly engage them with small arms fire and the occasional LAT/HAT (that is, we only shot at transports most of the time). If it was attack choppers or aircraft, in the majority of cases you couldn't do anything about it, didn't have the time to react and they would be gone after a couple of runs. Most squads preferred to run kits that focused on ground threats (a tank/APC can linger around for longer and really ruin your day) and if enemy air support gave them trouble, they would get into some hard cover and revive the wounded once it was gone. Plus, infantry is the stealthier unit in the game and hard to pick out from the air. It was the vehicles (mainly armor) that had reason to fear air assets.

 

In any case, we won't be getting attack aircraft any time soon, if at all. Overall, i suspect that even if they add AA missiles, they wouldn't be used that much with only transport choppers in the game (unless they were totally broken/overpowered, in which case every squad would roll with one). I think that those kits were also considered specialist kits and were limited to 2 per team, so the majority of players had to rely on static SAMs built on FOBs. Those could mostly be avoided or countered with preemptive flares by competent pilots, as the round progressed and intel on enemy positions accumulated.

 

Still, what constitutes an acceptable loss rate is not just how often you die, it's possible to balance it through other factors too. Transport choppers died quite often in PR but nobody would fret, it was considered part of the cost of doing business, same as infantry casualties. Reasonably experienced pilots with a few months of flying under their belt might lose as many as 4 choppers in the 60-90 minutes that was the average duration of a round. But they only cost 5-10 tickets (i think it was 5, same as a logi), each team started with 600 tickets and they respawned in 5 minutes. The problem with losing them wasn't the ticket loss (as long as you didn't repeatedly die with a full squad on board) or the waiting time, it was the loss of mobility compared to the enemy team (in maps where both had choppers), especially if it happened at the start of the round where everyone was scrambling to position on key points across the map.

 

But then again, that didn't happen too often because neither team had the time at the start of the round to set up static emplacements or move far enough ahead to pose a real danger to them. If choppers were lost at the start of the match, it was either due to accidents, plain inexperience on the pilot's part or the pilot caving in to a demanding SL (pushing too far or flanking too deep and running into an IFV that just came out of the enemy main, making a bad landing, flipping the chopper over on touch down, etc). So, they were pretty survivable during the time they were mostly needed, even with portable AA missiles in the field. Some maps even had dedicated SAM vehicles and choppers still made runs by coordinating with friendly armor to take it out, or simply using terrain masking and longer, unexpected routes.

 

From what i saw, basically the whole point was to maintain some stealth and not drop the infantry right in the action. Drop them as close as a couple blocks away in urban maps, or as much as 500 meters away in more open terrain, drop a supply crate for them and let them handle it from there. If they want to build a FOB they will have supplies to do so, or at the very least ammo available near their rally. If they want to assault and get another lift from main when they get wiped, that's also doable. If they wanted to get dropped right into the action, pilots would just refuse and say "i can drop you off on grid X instead". After all, if the chopper is seen it's not only bad news for the pilot, it's also bad news for the passengers because the enemy knows they're coming.

 

For cargo loadouts now, normally there is quite a bit of flexibility on real life aircraft. As long as it fits in the cabin and it's not above maximum take-off weight, you can load whatever combinations of cargo you want, maybe with a bit of modification on the spot (e.g., take out a 4 passenger seats to make room for some cargo).

That being said, it could be a bit cumbersome to manage it in-game and would probably require additional interfaces and menus. I don't doubt it's doable but i have a feeling they won't do it that way, because it will either get a bit into ArmA territory (scrolling through menus to operate vehicles) or pure flight sim territory (a large number of keybindings are necessary to operate the aircraft). Plus, imagine you are making a supply run and on the way back a squad asks to be moved, but you can't do it because you are on full cargo configuration. Now you have to go back to main, switch it out for passenger configuration and go back, meanwhile the tactical situation has completely changed, etc etc.

 

I don't mind it either way and the complexity doesn't bother me (i've been into flight sims since 1992 and they've grown increasingly complex and demanding over the years), but if one class of vehicle was modeled to such exacting detail it would both penalize it by being the only class where you have to take care of such details, and also take away resources from other aspects of the game.

 

I have a suspicion they'll settle for a mixed loadout like it was in Project Reality, with a moderate amount of supplies and some passenger capacity. Total passengers in PR were limited by the engine itself to 8 and squads were capped at 8 as well i think. So, a pilot and 7 guys rode out and the remaining  infantryman spawned on a rally the SL would place right after dismounting (yet another reason to touch down a bit further out from the enemy). In Squad, i think that when they announced the Blackhawk they said it will seat a full squad of 9 plus 3 crewmen (pilot and 2 gunners).

 

So, how much supplies? Well, we could just copy PR as a starting point and start fine-tuning from there. Half a logi for medium choppers (1500 supplies), a quarter logi for small/light ones (750 supplies) and, if they ever get added for bigger maps in a few years, a full logi's worth of 3000 supplies for 1-2 choppers of heavier classes (e.g. the Chinook).

 

Boy, we're really getting the ball rolling here...i just hope there is separate control logic for mouse and joystick, so i can use a stick and fly properly with analog controls.

 

 

 

Edited by Burningbeard80

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Posted (edited)

After a couple months of chopper pilots killing me while taking off/landing or flying to an LZ, and Attack helis killing me, choppers will be a vast tool in this game. Look forward to all the learning newbies who will kill me! 

Edited by BlackDog1247

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Posted (edited)
On 9/6/2019 at 8:05 AM, BroBeans said:

I added a little over here before I saw this thread. 

 

TLDR;

Buddy rallies should be nerfed/removed with the addition of helicopters prompting better use of assets and considerable punishment for abandoning/losing assets. 

 

For me, not only do they have to eliminate the Buddy Rally, but also heavily nerfed the "classic" Rally Point.

 

Helicopters will soon arrive and the transport of troops will be faster and more efficient ... my great regret (now I have lost hope) would have been to see APC and IFV how they should really be used ... transporting troops and supporting them in attacks. Instead there are the usual hundreds of squads locked by 2 that use BTR, Bradley, Warrior etc. like Tank.

 

Here, heavily nerfed the Rally Points, can be a start to see APC used by entire teams.

Edited by Tmac

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I spent probably close to 8 hours playing the helicopter mod that was available a while back and if that's any indication what the official implementation will consist of chopper's won't be anywhere near as OP as everyone is portraying them to be. Especially now that there are many newer weapons available to destroy them than there were in that version.

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On 2019-06-08 at 2:30 AM, Phoenixstorm said:

Witch the current logistic system which takes ages to unload anything. I highly doubt air logistic would be fun or useful if you give away the radio's position immediately 

I don't think we should be relying on or encouraging ninja HABs anyway. The constant flow of soldiers out of a farmhouse basement looks quite ridiculous without any indication of troop or supply movement on the map.

Supply drops from helicopters would already have the advantage of speed over logi trucks. The disadvantage of visibility is IMO a good balance. 

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1 hour ago, pinko said:

I don't think we should be relying on or encouraging ninja HABs anyway. The constant flow of soldiers out of a farmhouse basement looks quite ridiculous without any indication of troop or supply movement on the map.

Supply drops from helicopters would already have the advantage of speed over logi trucks. The disadvantage of visibility is IMO a good balance. 

Pus the time it takes to unload supplies is very crucial for a chopper. You will have very low survivability if you need to stay several seconds in the area.

Flyby airdrops aren't possible in the current logistic mechanic.

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Posted (edited)

Yup, crates need to be in the game. The most important advantage of the current system is the ability to customize loadouts (eg, 1000 ammo and 500 construction, or half and half, or whatever else you want) when reloading at main, but it would make sense to actually see a crate drop from the logi, chopper or even an APC or MRAP, even if those are purely ammo crates.

 

In the current mechanics, it's like the supplies are funneled into an undergroung plumbing system that runs them all the way to the guns/mortars/AT missile emplacements. This is a small thing and it's mostly about immersion (having to drop ammo bags via riflemen to reload emplacements is more realistic). But crates have tactical implications too. The resupplying side can drop supplies instantly, but the other side can also destroy enemy supplies faster by blowing up the crates, without even having to touch the radio. Imagine for example that you have a pesky enemy FOB with overwatch on your main advance into a cap. Now you have to assault it directly, but once you find the radio the defenders have no chance at all. With crates, you could assault it as usual and the defenders could disperse their crates, or you could shell it with mortars. If the enemies had all their crates out in the open, they would be screwed. If they had taken care to stash a few of them in cover, they would be able to fight back. More options for everyone, more tactics and content.

 

Currently, the radio being an invisible bag holding all the supplies feels a bit artificial, and the same goes for everything despawning once the radio is down. It's a bit too "magic" for a semi-realistic game. I'd prefer if we had crates holding the supplies and the HAB remained intact but disabled, any sandbags and razor wires remained in place and any gun emplacements remained intact and usable (maybe don't let them reload ammo if the radio is down?). Then you'd need to drop a new radio once you retake the location to reenable the HAB and any disabled buildings. But this wouldn't unbalance defense over offense, because people would need to be careful where they put their crates. If they are out in the open, they can be blown up by the enemy (grenadiers, enemy vehicles, etc) and the FOB would be out of supplies very fast.

 

This would also balance out nicely with helicopter resupply. Players would be able to receive a lot of supplies fast via airdrops, but 99% of the time a chopper drop will leave a crate in an exposed position (unless you have a big enough hangar for the chopper to park into before dropping, like for example in Talil Outskirts). So with helicopter drops you would essentially be giving up concealment/safety of supplies in exchange for faster and more frequent supply runs.

 

TL:DR crates give more options for offense and defense to both teams and there is a decision vs consequence dynamic at play.

 

I think a mix between the current system and the one we had in PR would be nice. Sure, let us load and drop incrementally like we do now, but spawn a crate behind the logi when we drop. If there is already a crate within 5-10 meters, add the dropped amount into that crate. Otherwise, spawn a new crate (this will let people spread their crates out to keep them safer). Then, in addition to the menu selections to drop construction and drop ammo supplies, add a third option in land vehicles to drop everything at once in a single crate.

 

Helicopters should have the "all in one" crate drop as default behavior. Incremental resupply and picking up supplies from a FOB to move elsewhere (similar to what we have now) could still be available to them. In fact, it would have to be, at least for the main base, so they could reload. The catch here is that in order to do that, the chopper would have to be touching the ground and have a vertical and lateral speed of less than a few meters per second, to simulate loading/unloading supplies over time instead of a single crate drop.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Burningbeard80 said:

Yup, crates need to be in the game. The most important advantage of the current system is the ability to customize loadouts (eg, 1000 ammo and 500 construction, or half and half, or whatever else you want) when reloading at main, but it would make sense to actually see a crate drop from the logi, chopper or even an APC or MRAP, even if those are purely ammo crates.

 

I think crates are planned, and the idea is that you can customize the crates loadout prior to dropping

 

9 hours ago, pinko said:

I don't think we should be relying on or encouraging ninja HABs anyway. The constant flow of soldiers out of a farmhouse basement looks quite ridiculous without any indication of troop or supply movement on the map.

Supply drops from helicopters would already have the advantage of speed over logi trucks. The disadvantage of visibility is IMO a good balance. 

This all comes down to map design. Some maps do it very well. For example, Talil has fog which limits players view distance so you can't see what your enemy is doing from afar. Maps with a lot of trees do a good job as well, because then you can hide HABs in the forest without people seeing it. It can be done well, PR does it well, no reason why Squad can't.

 

On 6/11/2019 at 11:14 AM, Tmac said:

For me, not only do they have to eliminate the Buddy Rally, but also heavily nerfed the "classic" Rally Point.

 

Helicopters will soon arrive and the transport of troops will be faster and more efficient ... my great regret (now I have lost hope) would have been to see APC and IFV how they should really be used ... transporting troops and supporting them in attacks. Instead there are the usual hundreds of squads locked by 2 that use BTR, Bradley, Warrior etc. like Tank.

 

Here, heavily nerfed the Rally Points, can be a start to see APC used by entire teams.

I completely agree with this, classic rally points need a massive nerf!

 

On 6/11/2019 at 11:33 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

I spent probably close to 8 hours playing the helicopter mod that was available a while back and if that's any indication what the official implementation will consist of chopper's won't be anywhere near as OP as everyone is portraying them to be. Especially now that there are many newer weapons available to destroy them than there were in that version.

First, helicopter mod is not a good indication of how choppers will play out. If you want a better understanding play Project Reality where they work great. Second, they aren't meant to be completely OP, they will take a fair bit of skill to fly and dodge AA. You won't be able to drop troops behind enemy lines like you can with rallys, but neither should you be able to do something like that with ease...you will, however, be able to fairly easily transport troops/supplies behind your line, which you should be able to

Edited by dolmaface

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All I know is that the day they reléase that patch the player count is going to SKY ROCKET through the ceiling. Whether its a good iteration or not, the first patch with hellis is goind to créate a lot of hype.

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15 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

All I know is that the day they reléase that patch the player count is going to SKY ROCKET through the ceiling. Whether its a good iteration or not, the first patch with hellis is goind to créate a lot of hype.

I certainly hope we have 100 player servers prior. It's hard enough to get into a server as it is...

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On 6/12/2019 at 4:07 PM, dolmaface said:

First, helicopter mod is not a good indication of how choppers will play out. If you want a better understanding play Project Reality where they work great.

Did you ever even actually play the helicopter mod in Squad? I can't see how official implementation would be drastically different than the mod. Especially if the first iteration is a Blackhawk.  

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People where saying the same things about tanks.

Every update makes the player count come up FOR TWO DAYS.

The choper in game will not make that much game change as you may think or hope.

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23 minutes ago, Bahrein said:

People where saying the same things about tanks.

Every update makes the player count come up FOR TWO DAYS.

The choper in game will not make that much game change as you may think or hope.

With the new patch release cadence(new patch every 4 - 6 weeks) not only will we see new content & tweaks more regularly, but an increase in player interest & retention.

The past 9ish weeks has been the healthiest the playbase has been since v12 release in Nov 2018. Which v12 had a significant drop in players after a month. Since v13 & v14 we are holding quite a high increase in both average player count and individual player count for 2+ months, no real major drops, but maintaining it.

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