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2 hours ago, <invalid> said:

 

The suppression in squad is that it turns on the moment the player clicks his mouse, so you character is reacting pretty much before the round is landing next to you.

 

Really? I´ve never experienced that. Suppression affects me when the bullet lands or fies by, not when it´s fired (unless it´s fired by enemy near me).

 

2 hours ago, <invalid> said:

Suppression in real life works when you fire short bursts at the target location preventing them from peeking or moving like MultiSquid said, but in short accurate bursts.

In real life you can suppress an enemy without even shooting.

 

2 hours ago, <invalid> said:

Because the time it takes to hold breath should be more than enough time for the player who is "suppressing" to correct his aim and actually hit their target.

You seem to base everything on the idea that suppression is only the consequence of innaccurate fire.

 

I´m sorry but you´re wrong. Suppressive fire is a valid tactic which is implemented to achieve fire superiority and initiative of manouver.

Sometimes officers conducting fire might encourage men to "fire more" over tan "fire better". Just because an officer cannot trust that a certain shooter Will actually make that killing shot he thinks he can make, and on the other hand he trusts the psicological efecto of 10 "near shots" in 10 seconds.

 

I think that you should re asses what you think of suppression.

 

2 hours ago, <invalid> said:

The fear and stress factor should be depending on how much stamina the player has, which determines whether or not they are capable of returning fire in that moment.

Why stamina???

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On 06/06/2019 at 8:41 PM, Peerun said:

Imho, squad was better without it. At the very least you should get suppressed by "friendly" bullets, too.

Go Fornite

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Posted (edited)

If you are playing Squad as a competitive shooter, I am at a loss for words. I am also slightly irritated, because Squad is literally (LITERALLY) the ONLY game in the ENTIRE fps genre that has a legitimate, immersive combined arms feel. It also has the best soundscape I have ever heard. Definitely the most (if not ONLY) realistic shooter (in terms of it's broad representation of a battlefield) that I have ever played. Honestly, Squad has most of the strengths of Arma without all the weaknesses.

It just doesn't make sense to me why someone would play a game like this to be "competitive" - at least in the way you're describing it - when there are FAR better and NUMEROUS options available: Counter-Strike, PUBG, even ****ing Fortnite has a decent skill floor/ceiling compared to this. Why wouldn't you want to play those?

The way I see it, Squad values DIFFERENT skills. It doesn't put an emphasis on how crisp you can stutter step or well you can aim and manage spray patterns, etc. Instead, Squad rewards players for their strategic strengths: How well they can communicate (you'd be surprised at how valuable communication skills are in Squad); their ability to read the map and plan minutes into the future, etc. Fire fights are generally won by position and numbers rather than raw aiming mechanics.

I don't mind suppression, because its just another feature within the game that players have to take into account. If you KNOW an MG can suppress you and mess up your aim, why are you even peeking in the first place? I'd even advocate for MORE suppression, or at the very least MORE weapon sway, but thats for another discussion.

Bottom line is that if you want to play a game that rewards sheer talent of aim and crispness of movement, go play a game that's tailored for it. There are PLENTY of games that cater to that style of play. This is like someone walking into a hipster dive bar and then complaining the jukebox doesn't have any top40 music on it. Go to the other 15 bars within the square mile that DO!

Squad is a niche game for a niche market (LITERALLY STANDS ALONE), and I will fight vehemently against someone who wants to incorporate already well-represented features of mainstream games into it.

Edited by gutenshmeis
spelling/fixing sentence

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16 hours ago, gutenshmeis said:

If you are playing Squad as a competitive shooter, I am at a loss for words. I am also slightly irritated, because Squad is literally (LITERALLY) the ONLY game in the ENTIRE fps genre that has a legitimate, immersive combined arms feel. It also has the best soundscape I have ever heard. Definitely the most (if not ONLY) realistic shooter (in terms of it's broad representation of a battlefield) that I have ever played. Honestly, Squad has most of the strengths of Arma without all the weaknesses.

It just doesn't make sense to me why someone would play a game like this to be "competitive" - at least in the way you're describing it - when there are FAR better and NUMEROUS options available: Counter-Strike, PUBG, even ****ing Fortnite has a decent skill floor/ceiling compared to this. Why wouldn't you want to play those?

The way I see it, Squad values DIFFERENT skills. It doesn't put an emphasis on how crisp you can stutter step or well you can aim and manage spray patterns, etc. Instead, Squad rewards players for their strategic strengths: How well they can communicate (you'd be surprised at how valuable communication skills are in Squad); their ability to read the map and plan minutes into the future, etc. Fire fights are generally won by position and numbers rather than raw aiming mechanics.

I don't mind suppression, because its just another feature within the game that players have to take into account. If you KNOW an MG can suppress you and mess up your aim, why are you even peeking in the first place? I'd even advocate for MORE suppression, or at the very least MORE weapon sway, but thats for another discussion.

Bottom line is that if you want to play a game that rewards sheer talent of aim and crispness of movement, go play a game that's tailored for it. There are PLENTY of games that cater to that style of play. This is like someone walking into a hipster dive bar and then complaining the jukebox doesn't have any top40 music on it. Go to the other 15 bars within the square mile that DO!

Squad is a niche game for a niche market (LITERALLY STANDS ALONE), and I will fight vehemently against someone who wants to incorporate already well-represented features of mainstream games into it.

+10 Totally agree

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Posted (edited)

Supression is not implemented well so far. The same situations create diffrent results in case of supressing the enemey/getting supressed. Supressions through walls is possible, black screens from bullets further away than an infantry scope can see and diffrent supression laying down on one spot changing the field of view (looking south, looking north and so on.....).

Sure nice mechanic but bugged as hell with a frustation factor higher anything else in this game.

Edited by Mybrainisanut

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On 7/30/2019 at 1:58 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Really? I´ve never experienced that. Suppression affects me when the bullet lands or fies by, not when it´s fired (unless it´s fired by enemy near me).

 

In real life you can suppress an enemy without even shooting.

 

You seem to base everything on the idea that suppression is only the consequence of innaccurate fire.

 

I´m sorry but you´re wrong. Suppressive fire is a valid tactic which is implemented to achieve fire superiority and initiative of manouver.

Sometimes officers conducting fire might encourage men to "fire more" over tan "fire better". Just because an officer cannot trust that a certain shooter Will actually make that killing shot he thinks he can make, and on the other hand he trusts the psicological efecto of 10 "near shots" in 10 seconds.

 

I think that you should re asses what you think of suppression.

 

Why stamina???

Trust me it triggers when the mouse is clicked. I shot at someone 800m away and they went prone the moment I clicked my mouse, not when the bullet landed.

How do you suppress someone without shooting? Indirect arty is better suppression that small arms fire.

Suppressive fire usually achieves its effect by threatening casualties to individuals who expose themselves to it. Willingness to expose themselves varies depending on the morale, motivation and leadership of the target troops.

The guy wasn't even aiming at me. That's my argument.

Players, including me, exploit the suppression system like this; when i get shot at in game, i just turn and automatic fire the direction i heard the gun shot, instantly ruining the enemy line of sight because it causes constant wobbly arms... it seriously makes no sense that your characters arms wobble.

It's not how people react in real life, when people get shocked, they usually duck or move their head out of the way. Not wobble their arms.


 

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I like the camera shake you get when you have a bipod deployed and everyone is trying to shoot at you.

 

That's the effect it should be not swaying arms. Just a **** load of headbobbin camera shake.

I know that most people who are happy with the suppression system are the players who wer getting 1 tapped by iron sights before suppression came in. I remember 1 tappin heaps of people trying to mow me down with their bipod lmg and it was actually kinda lame, so it needed to come in.

I think players should be able to cancel the suppression effect by holding breath, life or death situations, because chances are by the time you have had your camera shake and wobbly arms and actually held your breath the enemy is likely going to zone in on you and correct his aim.
 

wiki recons small arms is like a 1meter suppression range. depending on calibre aswell. Does anyone know if 7.62 and 5.56/.45 cause different suppression? if that makes sense

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18 hours ago, <invalid> said:

...

The guy wasn't even aiming at me. That's my argument.

Players, including me, exploit the suppression system like this; when i get shot at in game, i just turn and automatic fire the direction i heard the gun shot, instantly ruining the enemy line of sight because it causes constant wobbly arms... it seriously makes no sense that your characters arms wobble.

It's not how people react in real life, when people get shocked, they usually duck or move their head out of the way. Not wobble their arms.

You think returning fire and stopping the other player from killing you is abuse but it isn't, what it does is extend what would have been an instant kill into a firefight which is what players like me want.

 

This is the fundamental difference between players. Some want the game to be entirely decided by individual skill, he shot at you first so he should have killed you, and others want it to be decided by group skill, you suppressed him and moved to cover which opens this engagement up for more players to get involved.

 

In reality you would duck from fear, but forcing the player to duck would feel like shit, so wobbling the character's aim is an effective way of getting the player to duck by choice because shooting back is a worse choice.

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4 hours ago, Stom said:

You think returning fire and stopping the other player from killing you is abuse but it isn't, what it does is extend what would have been an instant kill into a firefight which is what players like me want.

 

This is the fundamental difference between players. Some want the game to be entirely decided by individual skill, he shot at you first so he should have killed you, and others want it to be decided by group skill, you suppressed him and moved to cover which opens this engagement up for more players to get involved.

 

In reality you would duck from fear, but forcing the player to duck would feel like shit, so wobbling the character's aim is an effective way of getting the player to duck by choice because shooting back is a worse choice.


You make a really good point, I didn't think about it like that.

I just think players should be able to cancel suppression in those life or death moments by holding shift.

But the time it takes to hold breath while being suppressed should be longer than usual.

The way I see it, if the MGunner is missing me completely because he can't actually see me and I have eyes on a headshot, I should be able to ignore his missing bullets and make the shot.

What's the distance for suppression? It should only be 1 meter from you player but seems like more than that.

 

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Suppression is part of the game and still need some love from developpers to be effective. Pressure visualization is essential. I suggested many improvements on it way back then. I understand you compare the game with others things but please do not do that.

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Guess I should've specified that I meant "going back to the old suppression system" not "removing suppression altogether" 
Good points from everyone

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On 8/8/2019 at 9:36 AM, <invalid> said:


You make a really good point, I didn't think about it like that.

I just think players should be able to cancel suppression in those life or death moments by holding shift.

But the time it takes to hold breath while being suppressed should be longer than usual.

The way I see it, if the MGunner is missing me completely because he can't actually see me and I have eyes on a headshot, I should be able to ignore his missing bullets and make the shot.

What's the distance for suppression? It should only be 1 meter from you player but seems like more than that.

 

If he is firing in your direction you should be suppressed. Every normal person would go into cover if another dude is opening up with a machine gun on them, even if the guy with the MG isn't aiming directly at them. If you look at footage from real firefight you will see that none of the soldiers are taking accurate shots while they are under fire. Everyone is just unloading in the direction of the enemy and they dont want to expose themselves to enemy fire. The idea with the suppression system is to replicate a sense of fear that in real life is very hard to control and overcome. A regular GI will not land headshots while a MG is firing at him, and this is why you arent able to overcome the suppression. 

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On 8/10/2019 at 1:36 AM, Pluto is a planet said:

If he is firing in your direction you should be suppressed. Every normal person would go into cover if another dude is opening up with a machine gun on them, even if the guy with the MG isn't aiming directly at them. If you look at footage from real firefight you will see that none of the soldiers are taking accurate shots while they are under fire. Everyone is just unloading in the direction of the enemy and they dont want to expose themselves to enemy fire. The idea with the suppression system is to replicate a sense of fear that in real life is very hard to control and overcome. A regular GI will not land headshots while a MG is firing at him, and this is why you arent able to overcome the suppression. 

There is just so much to take into account when it comes to the battlefield. The mujahideen believe that every "arrow" is guided by god, then we have WW2 stories from old vets talking about how they just couldn't understand how they survived while their friends where getting killed in horrible ways, just meters from them. This supports the suppression system imo, it makes the game immersive and just these little facts and knowledge's really makes the game that little more exciting. Well for me anyway.

Trying to account for fear is hard, how do any of us actually know how we are going to react in real life until that actual moment.

I say this but I think that personal motivation is very dependent on inner intention. People from all armies and factions in real life have deserters, traitors, heroes and legends, so the game has to account for a basic average morale and mentality.


You can't account for that in game, and if the developers were to involved this factor that would create leveling and perks which = Perks = COD/BF.

So I take back my argument, because I understand the bigger picture, we don't want another cs or cod or bf.

I don't take cover until I actually get shot in game, so it does conflict with my game play, but I am adapting again, the suppression system has been a bit of an obstacle for me, if you remember v10 lol.

My conclusion is the sway is a little over emphasized and should gradually increase in accordance to consecutive shots being taken at you.
It should also create an abrupt sway rather than a smooth sway, but 1 round should just make you flinch once.

So in my mind I see suppression as a bar or meter. The more bullets put at you the more the bar goes up to a maximum where you have a quivering bum hole.

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Suppression in my opinion is very needed mechanic in squad because without it the mg and ar are out of their true role . The MG is for gaining the firepower advantage over the enemy and not just for killing . Sure some of you can say , that MG is super killing machine but seriously , this isn't BF this is squad. It is not about killing , it is about capturing the point and not loosing tickets. So it is better to just not die and capture the point than to kill 3 people and die .

If the suppresion is well implemented to the game , the mg is gaining the whole new purpose for example  of not allowing the enemy to fire at your advancing squad . The mechanics like that makes this game as tactical and teamwork focused as it currently is 

Ps. Beg you pardon for my grammar mistakes

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Suppression in reality is quite complex and comes down to multiple variables and circumstances. A lot of people identify suppression as volume of fire = heads down, which in some cases is true, but if that volume of fire isn't accurate; IE causing zips over head or splash(impacts) close in their proximity, the enemy is going to shoot back, especially if the engagement is across longer distances.

Even then, volume of fire isn't always needed, a hidden shooter unable to be located with very accurate single fire can pin a whole unit down. 

Four main sounds to incoming fire

  1. Gunfire report, aka the sound from enemy gun fire(expanding gases etc) which have a boom or sharp echoey crack to it.
  2. Flyby one; The bullet snap sound - This means the round is close, but not too close, and is travelling anywhere from around 3ish feet to 20ft+ overhead/to the side. It's the most common sound you'll hear in a firefight, and the bigger the round, the bigger the sound.
  3. Flyby two; The bullet zip, also referred to as the angry bee sound. This is the scary sound, this means you should probably put your head down or move to cover as that round was a good 2ft to a couple inches from hitting you. At times, you can even feel the wind / air disturbance of the round flying by you.
  4. Impact sounds; Thud/cracks depending on surface it hit, as well as another sound me and my army buds call the "twirl", which is the sound of a bullet spinning off, aka ricocheting.

In a firefight, you'll primarily hear sounds 1 and 2 the most. The first couple of firefights will be intense as the sound of battle and people actively trying to kill you has to fully settle in, you have to mentally adapt to it. After you've been exposed to the battle stresses and sounds of a real battle, you sort of become desensitized towards sounds 1 & 2, as you'll be hearing those sounds a lot throughout a firefight and you get used to it. When sounds 1 & 2 turn to sounds 3 & 4 is when you start to poop your pants, especially when you visually see the rounds impacting inches or a few feet from you.

I wrote about my experiences awhile ago, with being under fire while on deployment, not a fully detailed write up, tried to keep it short - But it gives the gist of suppression, the affects of being under fire etc, it'll be in this spoiler so this post isn't super long.
 

Spoiler

 

You can return fire accurately under fire, or while being 'suppressed'. You have to regain fire superiority to make sure you don't become permanently fixed to the point, you get cut off/surrounded and CAS or Indirect is of limited help by the time it's available or arrives.

First few times getting shot at, and reacting accordingly is difficult, as it's the first times you have people actually trying to kill you. Emotions are going, adrenaline is pumping and the only way you learn to control and maintain a level head is by going through these stresses and learning to output them correctly. Training aids this as it teaches you what to do, and how to respond to the level of threat. It's just a matter of mentally adapting to being under fire for the first few times before everything levels out.
 

After a few firefights, you find it easier to react and respond to situations. If you are being heavily engaged, support weapons need to be firing, rifles need to be firing - so you can turn the firefight in your favor. When snaps turn to zips or rounds start kicking up a few feet around you, is when your take a low profile as you know you're zero'd in and they're getting closer. After the zips stop or rounds aren't splashing close to you, and the enemy firing point is located, start shooting to make sure that spot is no longer able to be used to engage you or to displace/kill the enemy.
 

Fire superiority and maneuvering wins firefights. CAS and indirect is not instant, and the only way you can hold and alleviate the pressure, is by returning fire - So you can get the support you need to fully turn the fight in your favor, or end it, there and then.


Accurate fire in a fire fight is not shooting only to kill, it's firing on the enemy location with the intention to deny enemy movement, to displace them from that cover or to kill them. A lot of people identify suppression as large amounts of inaccurate fire, which is kind of an inaccurate description. To have the desired effects of suppression, it has to be accurate - 50 rounds flying 40 feet above someone's head won't do much, but  5 rounds landing a few feet above and around them, will make them think twice about exposing themselves. Especially when it comes to mid to long range engagements, as freedom of movement isn't as limited, and accuracy declines.
 

Only time returning fire is very very difficult, is in close quarter situations, as taking fire at closer distances is a lot more accurate, and firefights become more lethal. But again, if you're going to survive, you have to reverse the pressure and the only way that is going to happen, is by shooting back yourselves.

 


And this is why it's hard to get a perfect suppression system in video games, because there's so many variables & circumstances both mentally and physically to it, that a video game can not accurately emulate, then you have to consider game balance and fun factor into it as well.

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:45 PM, Pluto is a planet said:

Here you can see an example of a real firefight and even a few rounds have a big suppression effect. They even starts to shoot over their heads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2SWWDt8Wg (not graphic)

Yeah in my argument about the suppression system, the machine gunner suppressing me was in the open, side stepping while crouching. The guy in video is clearly in a good position with his weapon deployed.

It should only trigger 1m from the player, but the game feels like it's more than a meter.


I do find though sometimes when I choose to return fire, the moment I start shooting, just sometimes, magically, their shit house aim is corrected (probably by the suppression system triggering) and they land a shot on me after missing 10+ times.

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Imho, the biggest problem with current suppression integration is that it doesn't care if you're in cover or not - you get suppressed even if the enemy fire is hitting the other side of the building you're standing behind(or if it's coming 10m over your head etc).

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On 17/08/2019 at 10:59 AM, Peerun said:

Imho, the biggest problem with current suppression integration is that it doesn't care if you're in cover or not - you get suppressed even if the enemy fire is hitting the other side of the building you're standing behind(or if it's coming 10m over your head etc).

No, not at all the same thing

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I think the supression system needs a change.
I think to supression Project Reality System os much better than this.

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aside from anything else in here, this seems an odd thing to say.

On 07/08/2019 at 5:47 PM, <invalid> said:

Trust me it triggers when the mouse is clicked. I shot at someone 800m away and they went prone the moment I clicked my mouse, not when the bullet landed.

you assume he went prone as a result of your actions; i do hope the basis of your argument is not a result of this.

 

just thought it odd, that's all.

 

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They need to make your hands/sight shake and really hard to aim when getting supressed! So peole actually start supressing each other. Currently suppression doesn't do much.

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