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MeAWarChild

What SPECIFICALLY is your problem?

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After reading some of the negative yet vague opinions in the A13 Survey review thread, I decided I wanted to know what specific problems people have with the direction this game is going in.

There's been several people decrying that the devs are deviating from the original premise of the game, of which I'm not sure since I have not been here from the beginning. However, coming from Project Reality, I see this game as a suitable continuation of what made that BF2 modification so successful.

I will admit to being dissatisfied with the endless revive system brought about in V13. As it stands it allows for too much continuation of battle when the enemy should be penalized for the mistakes that lead to their repeated incapacitation. If a group is holed up in one area and has enough bandages they can hold out for quite some time in spite of the opposing force continually inflicting casualties that should diminish their ability to hold an area.

That's my biggest current criticism of the game, but this topic is for those with a more experienced view on matters. I only ask that feedback be as specific as possible in articulating what problems you see in the current game and the direction things are going. Simply spouting off with statements like "This just isn't fun anymore since V13" does nothing to help address what your specific grievances are.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MeAWarChild said:

After reading some of the negative yet vague opinions in the A13 Survey review thread, I decided I wanted to know what specific problems people have with the direction this game is going in.

There's been several people decrying that the devs are deviating from the original premise of the game, of which I'm not sure since I have not been here from the beginning. However, coming from Project Reality, I see this game as a suitable continuation of what made that BF2 modification so successful.

I will admit to being dissatisfied with the endless revive system brought about in V13. As it stands it allows for too much continuation of battle when the enemy should be penalized for the mistakes that lead to their repeated incapacitation. If a group is holed up in one area and has enough bandages they can hold out for quite some time in spite of the opposing force continually inflicting casualties that should diminish their ability to hold an area.

That's my biggest current criticism of the game, but this topic is for those with a more experienced view on matters. I only ask that feedback be as specific as possible in articulating what problems you see in the current game and the direction things are going. Simply spouting off with statements like "This just isn't fun anymore since V13" does nothing to help address what your specific grievances are.

To keep it simple and short.

 

Game mechanics are too forgiving. There´s little need to value options since game doesn´t punish bad decisions. Thus generating an environment in which a squad is just a group  of individuals each doing it´s own things BECAUSE IT´S MORE EFFICIENT THAN ANY OTHER APPROACH.

 

Are there tactics in SQUAD? Yes.

 

Are there tactics in COD/BF? Yes.

 

Are there tactics in a basketball game? Yes.

 

It´s not about the lack of a tactical approach, it´s that those tactics don´t ressemble what they are suppossed to.

Edited by Nightingale87

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1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

Game mechanics are too forgiving. There´s little need to value options since game doesn´t punish bad decisions. Thus generating an environment in which a squad is just a group  of individuals each doing it´s own things BECAUSE IT´S MORE EFFICIENT THAN ANY OTHER APPROACH.

What v13’s features did is reduce the consideration of time in maneuvering and spawning. It’s now easier and quicker to get shredded as a squad if your SL doesn’t actually care about the in-depth tactics the gameplay  (in particular the ticket system) requires. Since a “ticket” is a measurement without units, it doesn’t have meaning to some SLs, and so they keep rushing in over and over until they lose. What v13 has done is illuminated an underlying issue that has been around for a while (I believe it is titled the “rush meta”), while making it easier on a good squad hindered by bad ones. I’m not going to say that the updates are good, but this is what I’ve noticed in most v13 discussions.

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I wouldn't be as "aggressive" (for lack of a better word) in my criticism as Nightingale87, but my disagreements are pretty much what both of you described.

 

I would like to see more consequence (good and bad) for actions taken by players (e.g. losing high-tier vehicles like tanks should hurt more, just give teams more tickets so that the rounds don't end too fast), reintroduction of the "dead for good" state and a heavy nerf/rebalancing of the buddy rally. At least until we get more transportation options on the suitable layers and bigger maps (e.g. helicopters, unarmed transport vehicles, nerfed MRAPs that cost only a few tickets and respawn fast but can be killed with a single LAT rocket and will become mainly transports as a result, etc), then we probably won't need the buddy rally at all.

 

I've touched on this in many different threads here, but my main wish is to see this game be inclusive of multiple playstyles, just as PR was. I don't want it to become another run and gun shooter. On the other hand, i also don't mind having some smaller, CQB-heavy maps or run and gun style tactics being effective, as long as it's not mandatory to play that way all the time. If it's possible to win rounds without having to play this way, i'm ok with it, because then i can also do the stuff i like without being penalized for using tactics closer to real world doctrines.

 

Some people will do close range firefights and we need them to storm the caps. Some people will be good at tanks, IFVs, helicopters, and we need them too. And some people will stick to infantry, but they will play cautiously, in a calculated manner and plan things out. We need them too, and that's the kind of infantry squad i like joining.

 

Yesterday, after quite a long time i've had a SL who was like that and we had a very good, rewarding round. We started up by simply defending the first cap and ended up assaulting the enemy FOB closest to the last cap, helping our team win the round. We didn't run in blind like headless chickens to the first available firefight in a compound, we took our time, approached carefully (even crawling for 5 minutes straight at a point) and then assaulted with precision, suppression and aggression. I didn't even kill anyone in that round, but my squad probably won the round for our team. It's that kind of stuff that i like.

 

See, anyone can shoot a gun with varying degrees of success, but positioning, suppression and area denial, logistics, strategy and countless other factors have always been more important than individual aiming skill in the grand scheme of things. If dozens of men are shooting, even the worst shots are bound to hit something and have an effect on the outcome, as long as they are in a good position at the proper time. The opposite is rarely true. And since the game is trying to portray a semi-realistic depiction of war, it should reflect that.

 

As long as it's possible to win by not having to do the exact same thing each round, i don't have a problem with other players having the ability to do it. I just won't like a situation where the only way to win rounds is to buddy rally, spawn, rush in, kill, die, repeat.

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5 minutes ago, Burningbeard80 said:

Yesterday, after quite a long time i've had a SL who was like that and we had a very good, rewarding round. We started up by simply defending the first cap and ended up assaulting the enemy FOB closest to the last cap, helping our team win the round. We didn't run in blind like headless chickens to the first available firefight in a compound, we took our time, approached carefully (even crawling for 5 minutes straight at a point) and then assaulted with precision, suppression and aggression. I didn't even kill anyone in that round, but my squad probably won the round for our team. It's that kind of stuff that i like.

My experience in this case, and I don´t wish to burst your bubble, is that in rounds like the one you describe, can posible be won without your squad at all.

 

The most competitive squads ive been in in V13 are all about the SL finding a good balance of when to give up die and respawn, and when to update rally to attack from a different position. PERIOD. When you are in a squad like that, you know you´re in a good and competitive ROUND WINNER squad. And they don´t even communicate that much (not even as half as in PR); it´sa just a group of individuals who share a rally.

 

My exprience in v13.

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So after a rather frustrating round tonight, I have some suggestions on this:

Endless revive HAS to go. Nothing was worse than killing the same people, in the same area, over and over just because they had the bandages to keep getting their guys up. Bring back the 2x incapacitation within a minute (maybe even 2 minutes) rendering you dead.

Rally Points need some addressing:

  • A squad should not be able to set one of these out and be able to endlessly spawn from it unless it is discovered or moved. This can lead to more utilization/maintenance of FOBs and less endless firefights on a point. It should be easier to diminish your enemy when you're the better soldiers.
  • Allow rally points to have a very limited amount of ammo from which to resupply the squad. If all the ammo is used up, this also triggers a despawn of the rally point.  

I would also suggest requiring ammo in a FOB to allow soldier spawns. Once again, this will encourage better maintenance of FOBs.

 

 

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I'm really disappointed with the results of the survey. This means that Squad will take a more fast-paced shoot-revive game where there is no fear of getting killed. This is especially going to hurt long range engagements and vehicle effectiveness against infantry but what bothers me the most is the fact that it just makes Squad feel like something it shouldn't. I don't think it needs to be dumbed down for the everyday gamer, after all, it is not a game intended for everyone.

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30 minutes ago, fidanym said:

I'm really disappointed with the results of the survey. This means that Squad will take a more fast-paced shoot-revive game where there is no fear of getting killed. This is especially going to hurt long range engagements and vehicle effectiveness against infantry but what bothers me the most is the fact that it just makes Squad feel like something it shouldn't. I don't think it needs to be dumbed down for the everyday gamer, after all, it is not a game intended for everyone.

The survey is just a collective of data, it doesn't mean anything is set in stone. People are jumping the gun a little. Here's a quote from Sgt. Ross explaining a few things.

13 hours ago, SgtRoss said:

I feel some assumptions are being made about this article.

 

The intent was to show the results of the survey. There have been no judgments made as to whether or not the Squad development team will act on the results of the survey.

 

As stated in the quote, it will take the A15 development cycle to figure out if changes will be made and implement said changes.

 

An example, for all I know, the design team will take out Buddy Rally due to the upcoming release of helos. 

 

No promises are being made here, and we're just asking what people think and considering those responses.

 

Thank you all for the feedback. 

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53 minutes ago, Dubs said:

The survey is just a collective of data, it doesn't mean anything is set in stone. People are jumping the gun a little. Here's a quote from Sgt. Ross explaining a few things.

I hear you. 

 

Still it would be settling to get some "official" Word on the matter.

 

The only "official" Word we had was a very particular interpretation of the survey results. Thus, some are worried.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

To keep it simple and short.

 

Game mechanics are too forgiving. There´s little need to value options since game doesn´t punish bad decisions. Thus generating an environment in which a squad is just a group  of individuals each doing it´s own things BECAUSE IT´S MORE EFFICIENT THAN ANY OTHER APPROACH.

 

Spot on. It's almost like the devs are trying to please and keep everyone happy.

 

You make a bad decision, you pay for it.

 

My biggest gripes

> Constant revive & rally system is creating a BF/COD style game;

> Walking speed is too fast;

> I miss insurgency from PR :(

Edited by [email protected]

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7 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Spot on. It's almost like the devs are trying to please and keep everyone happy.

 

You make a bad decision, you pay for it.

 

My biggest gripes

> Constant revive & rally system is creating a BF/COD style game;

> Walking speed is too fast;

> I miss insurgency from PR :(

 

That's exactly my concerns too, and i miss the insurgency game mode as well.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Spot on. It's almost like the devs are trying to please and keep everyone happy.

 

You make a bad decision, you pay for it.

 

My biggest gripes

> Constant revive & rally system is creating a BF/COD style game;

> Walking speed is too fast;

*

Edited by El Pube

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9 hours ago, Dubs said:

An example, for all I know, the design team will take out Buddy Rally due to the upcoming release of helos. 

That's very good to know. I had a feeling it was a temporary thing to increase mobility, until we get vehicles that can actually be countered properly. Interesting stuff, and it seems helicopters are getting closer every day.

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Posted (edited)

It's not so much the direction but the total lack of direction, we have no idea what the devs want this game to be and what will be included in 1.0, it's clear we're moving further and further away from PR and I hope at this stage someone will make a PR mod for Squad

Progress has been slow, v14 coming so quickly is a step in the right direction but we still don't have weapon resting (Post Scriptum has this) or 100 players (Hell Let Loose has this), not to mention all the roles we're still missing

There is also a total lack of a core experience in this game, we have so many maps and layers that half of them never get played

Edited by Hotpokkaminny

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43 minutes ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

It's not so much the direction but the total lack of direction, we have no idea what the devs want this game to be and what will be included in 1.0, it's clear we're moving further and further away from PR and I hope at this stage someone will make a PR mod for Squad

Progress has been slow, v14 coming so quickly is a step in the right direction but we still don't have weapon resting (Post Scriptum has this) or 100 players (Hell Let Loose has this), not to mention all the roles we're still missing

There is also a total lack of a core experience in this game, we have so many maps and layers that half of them never get played

+1

 

And adding more game modes does not help.

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On 6.6.2019 at 6:38 PM, MeAWarChild said:

statements like "This just isn't fun anymore since V13" does nothing to help address what your specific grievances are.

There is your answer.

People have certain expectation from Squad, some changes made with updates differ from their expectation or vision of the game. We already had the same discussions when v10 dropped.

Witch is totally okay in my opinion, since the direction of Squad and witch audience it wants to please is not clear. Also the Devs never clearly stated their vision of the game.

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Thats why we have the forum to write our problems,whishes,good and bad things about the game.

Help the developers see what the mayoraty of players want in this game of ours.

I would just like to have more of the players active in the forum too.And not just come here post one post and say the game is sh.t since this is in game or that is in game.

I fought hard in the forum when it came to tanks about places in the tank and i lost the other opinion was accepted and thats ok i do not mind that i did my best.

If people hate the v13 and do not know to say why thy just more or less do not like the whole game and thats ok too.

I have more then 1,700 hours in game more then i had in bf2,bf3 and Insurgency combined.I was a solo player for like 500 hours then i joined a clan or a team or what ever you will call it and for me everything changed for the better.

As all of us here in some updates i do not like some things some i like and all but with the things you do not like i just dealt with and moved one.

I am sure there will be more and more positive and negative things people will see in this game of ours we have a huge community here with people wanting different stuff and its impossible to do all the good things everyone will like in game you are bound to have stuff some people will not like.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

We still don't have weapon resting (Post Scriptum has this)

Weapon resting wasn't a promised feature(Bipods were). The Devs explanation on weapon resting(which you have been linked before)

"Weapon resting is a complicated system that is not currently in the pipeline, its not due to us not wanting the feature though. At some later time we may decide to revisit its implementation but as of right now we are not actively developing a system for weapon resting. At this time we cannot use the current system for bipods, as that system relies on a button press for setting the bipod, which is very economical way to implement in regards to the cost to the server tick. A weapon resting system we would need to be more passive and always doing these checks for appropriate rest, which would be alot more expensive to the server tick, and not practical in the current implementation."

Who knows, OWI might liaise with Periscope and pick up their system, or wait until 1.0 release. We might see it, we might not. We'll just have to wait and see after all the top priority of planned features & content are added.

 

13 hours ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

100 players (Hell Let Loose has this), not to mention all the roles we're still missing

Hell Let Loose currently has very little going on server side, which allows them to have 100p servers without much server performance drawbacks. Once they start implementing their planned big features and systems, they'll run into obstacles in terms of server performance, It's unavoidable. 

OWI is working on 100p servers, the upgrade to UE4.21 was one of the big stepping stones, in moving towards 50v50 servers. 
50V50.thumb.png.62330e3f2a9d97b2ecc4b8aa50273d7a.png
From last night, a small test was done to get some server profiling on 100p server performance & stability. They're working on it ;)

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12 hours ago, Dubs said:

Weapon resting wasn't a promised feature(Bipods were). The Devs explanation on weapon resting(which you have been linked before)

"Weapon resting is a complicated system that is not currently in the pipeline, its not due to us not wanting the feature though. At some later time we may decide to revisit its implementation but as of right now we are not actively developing a system for weapon resting. At this time we cannot use the current system for bipods, as that system relies on a button press for setting the bipod, which is very economical way to implement in regards to the cost to the server tick. A weapon resting system we would need to be more passive and always doing these checks for appropriate rest, which would be alot more expensive to the server tick, and not practical in the current implementation."

Who knows, OWI might liaise with Periscope and pick up their system, or wait until 1.0 release. We might see it, we might not. We'll just have to wait and see after all the top priority of planned features & content are added.

it doesn't matter whether it's a promised feature or not, it's a realistic feature that other games have been able to implement, there's no longer an excuse

this is also part of the problem, when we ask for the features that were promised we're told they weren't actually promised, when we ask for any other features we're told to only expect the "promised" features

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Posted (edited)

RALLIES! For godsake just nerf them already, I have no idea why they even made the buddy rally, they are already overpowered as it is! I have been saying this for awhile now, rallies ruin everything about this game

  • Staying alive is not important since it is more efficient to respawn at nearby rally
  • Squad wiping is pretty much impossible, and is a game of whack a mole that sucks and isn't immersive, tactful, or fun
  • Spawn, run, gun, die, rinse and repeat is the motto
  • Teamwork/coordination is not important since rallies don't require it
  • The game has no decisive frontline since rallies make it too easy to establish permanent flanking routes anywhere and everywhere
  • Attacks are too forgiving since there is always a nearby backup spawn

DEVS just take a page out of the Project Reality playbook, which has been balanced over the past decade and works great! Make rallies last only 60s unless placed within 75m radius of friendly FOB/APC/Flag. This fixes all the issues! Then give a slight nerf to FOBs so that you can't just place them on CAPs (increase overrun radius to 100m); this ensures that defense isn't OP. Now the game becomes more about tactful maneuvering and coordination, rather than stupid ****ing rallys.

Edited by dolmaface

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52 minutes ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

it doesn't matter whether it's a promised feature or not, it's a realistic feature that other games have been able to implement, there's no longer an excuse

this is also part of the problem, when we ask for the features that were promised we're told they weren't actually promised, when we ask for any other features we're told to only expect the "promised" features

From my understanding Periscope basically reduce recoil near a surface, and just have a little icon displaying it's working. A kind of basic implementation of it, maybe OWI has a more complex system in mind they want to implement? Either way a passive weapon resting system in a basic or a more complicated form, still takes from server performance.

OWI has planned for 100p servers & helicopters, which is more important than weapon resting. Adding in weapon resting now, just adds to server load and would most likely affect the progress in the 100p server aspect. 

Add all the planned big stuff, then find out how much left over performance you can squeeze out with optimization and then add the un planned "wants" -- That is the smart way of development. No point in adding in all the unplanned stuff, only to find out you've not got enough room(even with optimization) to have planned big features.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, dolmaface said:

RALLIES! For godsake just nerf them already, I have no idea why they even made the buddy rally, they are already overpowered as it is! I have been saying this for awhile now, rallies ruin everything about this game

  • Staying alive is not important since it is more efficient to respawn at nearby rally
  • Squad wiping is pretty much impossible, and is a game of whack a mole that sucks and isn't immersive, tactful, or fun
  • Spawn, run, gun, die, rinse and repeat is the motto
  • Teamwork/coordination is not important since rallies don't require it
  • The game has no decisive frontline since rallies make it too easy to establish permanent flanking routes anywhere and everywhere
  • Attacks are too forgiving since there is always a nearby backup spawn

DEVS just take a page out of the Project Reality playbook, which has been balanced over the past decade and works great! Make rallies last only 60s unless placed within 75m radius of friendly FOB/APC/Flag. This fixes all the issues! Then give a slight nerf to FOBs so that you can't just place them on CAPs (increase overrun radius to 100m); this ensures that defense isn't OP. Now the game becomes more about tactful maneuvering and coordination, rather than stupid ****ing rallys.

Some of the things you said are spot on.

The thing is by now, I believe that Devs are after the moeny. They Will créate a game that can be modded so people that want to see another kind of gameplay (the direction the game was taking until v13) can find their place.

 

I´ve followed this game for a long time and praised it´s development and contact with the community. 

 

But, right now, I don´t feel Heard. I feel i´m no longer the target of this product. V13 runs better, loks better, has many more stuff that would have driven me crazy in v12. It´s just not v12 anymore. This week I´ve played 3 rounds. Didn´t feel any thrill at any moment. Firefights are repetitive and on going endless. There is no  "calm before the storm moment".

 

I Will keep playing the game from time to time. Specially one life events. That´s a whole other thing. I think devs Will facilitate stuff like that for the community to créate and support so we all can have our niche. But the vanilla game is to "meh" for me right now. 

 

Watch this 5 min video...

 

Edited by Nightingale87

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On 6/6/2019 at 9:38 AM, MeAWarChild said:

I decided I wanted to know what specific problems people have with the direction this game is going in.

Not being able to frag folks in a FPS game is ridiculous. Going 6-0 with 35 downs is absolutely stupid.

 

Get this surrender role out of the game. Its not even funny as a meme, it simply has no place in a shooter game and is nothing more than another troll tool for vast army of griefers that have infested Squad lately.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Some of the things you said are spot on.

The thing is by now, I believe that Devs are after the moeny. They Will créate a game that can be modded so people that want to see another kind of gameplay (the direction the game was taking until v13) can find their place.

 

I´ve followed this game for a long time and praised it´s development and contact with the community. 

 

But, right now, I don´t feel Heard. I feel i´m no longer the target of this product. V13 runs better, loks better, has many more stuff that would have driven me crazy in v12. It´s just not v12 anymore. This week I´ve played 3 rounds. Didn´t feel any thrill at any moment. Firefights are repetitive and on going endless. There is no  "calm before the storm moment".

 

I Will keep playing the game from time to time. Specially one life events. That´s a whole other thing. I think devs Will facilitate stuff like that for the community to créate and support so we all can have our niche. But the vanilla game is to "meh" for me right now. 

 

Watch this 5 min video...

 

 

What has me worried though is that everyone thinks the game started going down the casual/arcade route after V12, but really the game has been going down that route for awhile. Rally's have always been far too powerful, buddy rally is the nail in the coffin. It is not the beginning of the game going down the casual route, it's more/less the confirmation. I think I may have now lost all hope, if they release helicopters and don't nerf rallies+FOBs to make them function similarly to PR, modding will be our only hope.

Edited by dolmaface

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Posted (edited)

Why are people are still Crying about 'Buddy Rally'?

It has been already been confirmed that its being nurfed out...

It has been a long journey to take us to this point.I will not take Judgement until Squad Final release.

 

On 06/06/2019 at 8:10 PM, SgtRoss said:

I feel some assumptions are being made about this article.

 

The intent was to show the results of the survey. There have been no judgments made as to whether or not the Squad development team will act on the results of the survey.

 

As stated in the quote, it will take the A15 development cycle to figure out if changes will be made and implement said changes.

 

An example, for all I know, the design team will take out Buddy Rally due to the upcoming release of helos. 

 

No promises are being made here, and we're just asking what people think and considering those responses.

 

Thank you all for the feedback. 

 

Edited by Xx-RAGING-DEATH-xX

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