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What SPECIFICALLY is your problem?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pinko said:

I'm waiting for the commander role release to start modding, but could work on spawn logic in the meantime. My thoughts are to remove rallies and limit FOBs to require ammo to respawn on HAB. All troop movement is to be accounted for by movement of ammo, vehicles and personnel from Main. 

Persistent ammo was one of the best features ever added to the game from a realism standpoint. That's why the realistic nature of having to project power forward with logistics of ammo & supplies has always been such an odd juxtaposition with the completely unrealistic nature of rally points and HAB's which are essentially "convenience" tools to keep people "in the game" which has greatly increased the pacing of matches and negated any kind of fortification building by making it useless and obsolete.

 

Ultimately with a finished product I'd prefer FOB's only be about building weapons, fortifications and ammunition replenishment and have absolutely nothing to do with manpower reinforcement. Raise the TTK for body hits up much higher but make headshots instagibs and return dead people only to the Main Base and/or captured flag PSP where an ample supply of vehicles would await for return to the AO.

 

Edited by Zylfrax791

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15 hours ago, dolmaface said:

Guys...I've really started believing recently that the devs are not going to adjust the spawning mechanics like we suggest

While they may not be 100% what you're wanting, I believe the design team has some tweaks coming. Due to the timeline of gathering feedback, analyzing, and implementing changes based on it, there's going to typically be a patch(ish) between feedback and changes, assuming everything goes as intended, there are no major bugs/crashes/etc.

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15 hours ago, dolmaface said:

Guys...I've really started believing recently that the devs are not going to adjust the spawning mechanics like we suggest, and the only way we are going to see them is through mods. I have been giving thought in making a mod that adjust the spawns like we want, and have talked to some people on the modding discord who explained that it would be quite simple. Is anyone else interested in working on this with me?

 

Really, the hard part would be getting enough people to play test it...and who knows, if it gains traction maybe the devs would change their mind?

warasf.jpg

 

 

 

;)

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Gatzby said:

 

While they may not be 100% what you're wanting, I believe the design team has some tweaks coming. Due to the timeline of gathering feedback, analyzing, and implementing changes based on it, there's going to typically be a patch(ish) between feedback and changes, assuming everything goes as intended, there are no major bugs/crashes/etc.

Thanks for your input Gatzby!

 

I think I have come up with a decent way of explaining why the rally/FOB mechanics need to be adjusted

 

The mechanics encourage this current meta

Capture2.thumb.JPG.d8bcbbeabb02ada5d0761084c736548b.JPG

Since FOBs and Rallys are so powerful, in AAS all of the fighting gets focused around the offensive/defensive objectives. It doesn't always happen exactly like this, but most of the time, on public servers, the game devolves into each team building FOBs on the flags, and then placing rallies around their enemies flag. This divides your team into an attacking side, and a defending side, that fight at the opposing flags. This style of gameplay gets very repetitive, stale, and encourages bad habits. Since it is so easy to spawn, and get right back into fighting with rallies or OP FOBs, players don't worry about survival. There is a constant stream of players attacking/defending the objectives, and it more/less becomes a meat grinder. Rather, I would like to see the map like this

Capture.thumb.JPG.492bc5e32413b3f21205341bc14d59fe.JPG

 

In this scenario each team controls their own half of the map, and along the center is a line of conflict which acts in a tug of war. In this case, there is "behind enemy lines", and "behind friendly lines". Rather than your team getting divided on the two active flags, each team acts as a singular unit pushing on the other. Rather than all the action being concentrated on the two flags, it is spread out across the line of conflict.

 

This sort of gameplay is much more realistic, allows your team to organize more easily, and spreads out the action. In order to accomplish this though, the spawn mechanics need to change such that it is very difficult to place a spawn behind enemy lines. If all of your spawns are on your half of the map, then it would be very difficult for players to get to spawn behind enemy lines, because there are no spawns behind enemy lines! How is this done? The game has to limit rally placement so that it must be nearby friendly emplacements/vehicles, this makes it so that you can't place rallies behind enemy lines! but still can behind your line (since you have a plethora of friendly FOBs, flags, APCs, etc... behind your line).

 

By making that simple change to rallies, the game separates the teams and establishes a clear line of conflict, but now FOBs are too powerful, so the simple solution is to increase the overrun radius, so that teams cannot place FOBs on Flags anymore, and attacking/defending is thus balanced.

 

This does so many great things to the game;

 

  1. You actually don't want spawn points on the flags, because that concentrates the action in one small area too much, it is better that the CAP zone remain fairly spawn free so that it becomes more about Squad maneuvering and region influence. Increasing the FOB+rally overrun radius does this by forcing teams to place their FOBs/rallies behind/away from the objectives
  2. Getting behind enemy lines is no longer forgiving because there is no nearby rally to fall back on. Squads either have to survive, or coordinate with their team to establish a FOB/supported rally behind enemy lines. This is reasonable since it shouldn't be easy to establish flanks.
  3. Keeps your team a unit that pushes against the other in a tug of war
  4. Allows for creativity in FOB placement
  5. Allows for more versatile maneuvering and tactics.
  6. Make it easier for teams on public servers to remain organized
  7. Puts more emphasis on placing FOBs rather than rallies (especially when helos get released, building FOBs will be super easy!)
  8. Makes squad vs squad engagements more rewarding since you will actually be able to squad wipe, rather than fight endless whack-a-mole rallies (which isn't fun).
  9. Slows the game down, and allows squad leaders to spend more time organizing, building, and maneuvering. Right now there is very little time to do these things since there is always enemy constantly attacking you or the flag.

 

My solution to these problems are the ways that Project Reality resolved them, and think it is great that you guys are exploring other ways, but at the end of the day if those other ways still allow players to plop semi-infinite spawn points anywhere they want, and all of the game is focused around two small objectives on the map, it doesn't really improve anything.

 

Remember, passive punishments like limited ammo and ticket loss are not reliable means of enforcing the gameplay you want! On public servers no one cares or keeps track of ticket loss, and most people would rather get back in the action with limited ammo than spawn back at a FOB. In order to enforce certain styles of gameplay, you have to actively limit players options. If you want to deter people from spawning at rallies(limited ammo), make it so they literally can't spawn at rallies. If it becomes personally inconvenient for a player to respawn, he/she will want to survive. If you want a game that doesn't encourage run and gun, you have to punish them for running and gunning! I know people don't like the idea of having to walk or lose a position, but those punishments are necessary for a game that involves tactics like this!

*note: when helos get released transportation will get improved tremendously

 

That being said I am excited for new updates, and hope you take our thoughts into consideration!

 

*also: I actually really like the limited ammo mechanic and think its a step in the right direction, but it isn't enough

 

Edited by dolmaface

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On 6/11/2019 at 7:05 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Honestly, the version before vehicles was probably was the best playing iteration regarding being "punishing" because you had to play smart.

totally agree.

On 6/11/2019 at 9:27 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

Joint Operations invented AAS and the consequences for dying were negligible as well as it was an instantaneous respawn. You could either spawn at any of the previous flags you had taken or main

you could spawn kinda-instantly (if you were lucky) but only if the queue was empty and the spawn timer happened to be at 1 second, otherwise you had to wait up to 10 seconds if the timer had restarted (10 sec. between spawning players) or another 10 seconds per-person in the queue ahead of you -  fast re-spawning, in my experience at least, happened probably only about 10% of the time; most of the time i spent waiting for the timer to tick down some seconds or so, or stuck in a queue (of course being stuck in a queue was not always bad as you could, as you say, elect to spawn at a previous/adjacent cap or at main).

so i can't agree fully to "consequences for dying were negligible"; also, there was a lot of running in JO as well if I recall correctly, so another reason dying was not always cheap.

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5 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

 

totally agree.

you could spawn kinda-instantly (if you were lucky) but only if the queue was empty and the spawn timer happened to be at 1 second, otherwise you had to wait up to 10 seconds if the timer had restarted (10 sec. between spawning players) or another 10 seconds per-person in the queue ahead of you -  fast re-spawning, in my experience at least, happened probably only about 10% of the time; most of the time i spent waiting for the timer to tick down some seconds or so, or stuck in a queue (of course being stuck in a queue was not always bad as you could, as you say, elect to spawn at a previous/adjacent cap or at main).

so i can't agree fully to "consequences for dying were negligible"; also, there was a lot of running in JO as well if I recall correctly, so another reason dying was not always cheap.

Ok, I stand corrected. 10 seconds isn't instantaneous lol! But the consequences were negligible because even if there wasn't a motorcycle, dune buggy, chopper or APC at main the very second you respawned it seemed like you never waited more than 30 seconds it seemed. That said, just imagine how Joint Operations AAS mode would have played out if you could have put down rally points or HAB's lol.

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On 6/9/2019 at 12:02 AM, Dubs said:

From my understanding Periscope basically reduce recoil near a surface, and just have a little icon displaying it's working. A kind of basic implementation of it, maybe OWI has a more complex system in mind they want to implement? Either way a passive weapon resting system in a basic or a more complicated form, still takes from server performance.

That seems to be the implementation. I haven't heard that it affects server performance, or noticed any adverse effects. It works great actually, it's seamless, I hope OWI borrows the code and brings it over. 

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On 2019-06-14 at 11:33 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Ultimately with a finished product I'd prefer FOB's only be about building weapons, fortifications and ammunition replenishment and have absolutely nothing to do with manpower reinforcement. Raise the TTK for body hits up much higher but make headshots instagibs and return dead people only to the Main Base and/or captured flag PSP where an ample supply of vehicles would await for return to the AO.

That's also an elegant solution for protecting supply lines from Main.

 

More players entering the field from Main would mean more coverage of the team's side of the map, and squad members waiting at Main for the squad to wipe could busy themselves with the defence of Main (from camping vehicles, mines and IEDs, etc.). Allow building of assets like rocket emplacements at Main and you wouldn't need server rules for camping it. You could even eliminate Main protection zones, make Main a final cap point, and other gameplay changes. 

 

The reason I'm waiting for commander role implementation is to create a vehicle purchasing radial menu specific to the commander. They could access the radial menu from any radio on the map (including Main), and purchase a vehicle with tickets. The vehicle would then spawn at Main. No vehicle limits aside from ticket costs, and perhaps map-specific bans on certain vehicles. Maximum choice in deployment, maximum tactical variability and replayability. 

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That we still have people drive vehicles in the middle of the enemy team. 

 

That I see no evidence of community "maturing" at all. 

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On 17.6.2019 at 8:03 PM, pinko said:

 You could even eliminate Main protection zones, make Main a final cap point, and other gameplay changes.

 

How about, nope.

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Main should always open up to allow some end scenario. Lots of options already discussed.

 

Invisible wall is a very disappointing addition.

 

Main as a target during the game could be protected by a simple scan which exposes enemy movement on the map more frequently the closer they get to main. This can simulate any realistic functions from UAV to invisible guard outposts, it is only at main so nothing fancy is needed, just a huge buff for people near to main. End of round scenario could allow destruction of this facility to stop the exposure of movement of attacking players.

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Gentlemen comments above.I agree. I said it way back that Main Bases should be active to some Base Raping (Good Ol' JointOps style).No Safe areas to those Who Fight.

 

Remember 'All is Fair in Love & War'

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If you open up the main spawn to base-raping you'd see people start leaving the game in droves.

"All is fair in love and war" but at the end of the day this is a GAME meant to be played for some level of enjoyment. If you join in on a team getting utterly demolished to the point when you spawn in you're instantly picked off, how likely are you to hang around in a game that endorses that practice? At least with the protection of the main base you're given at least a small chance to get out, maneuver out of the kill zone and maybe even break the enemy's stranglehold on your team. Small chance sure but a chance nonetheless.



 

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I mean... Is it more fun to try and go out of your main only to get raped? Might aswell have main as the final objective for the insta-win.

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I might be mistaken but i think this has been done in only a couple of map layers in Project Reality, but you had to capture everything else first. If you did, the main became available for capture. But, again if my memory is accurate, it was only a couple of maps/layers and the main base on those was not just an empty spawn point in the middle of the countryside, but an entire base with buildings and hesco walls all around, so you actually had lots of cover and a fighting chance.

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It doesn't really matter what the devs do with main base protection because the private servers that are the only way you can play the actual pvp game will simply make some nonsensical supplemental rules that will override it.

 

If you've been paying attention first the main bases got enhanced protection that would send your vehicle flying and/or warn you and quickly kill you. If that wasn't enough recently most if not all of the maps got their main protection bubble size increased drastically.

 

And yet servers still have goofy rules with arbitrary distances listed about main that are completely up to the discretion of whatever admin happens to be around.

 

This is yet further proof that the game needs to be programmed to be completely stand alone with a universal built-in ruleset.

 

 

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To be honest i disagree. If people want to play a certain way and they cannot, they will stop playing.

 

What i expect/hope is that as the game slowly grows out of early access, new modding comes along and new servers pop up over time, we'll get a lot of variation. Then everyone can pick their favorite servers for their preferred play style and play on those. If there is a specific ruleset enforced, we'll be getting the same debates we have now about the direction the game is taking for the entire life of the game, with people arguing for and pushing the devs to one or the other direction all the time. And if it will be a globally enforced change, there will always be people who disagree because they are forced to play a way they don't like.

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On 2019-06-28 at 10:28 AM, MeAWarChild said:

"All is fair in love and war" but at the end of the day this is a GAME meant to be played for some level of enjoyment. If you join in on a team getting utterly demolished to the point when you spawn in you're instantly picked off, how likely are you to hang around in a game that endorses that practice? At least with the protection of the main base you're given at least a small chance to get out, maneuver out of the kill zone and maybe even break the enemy's stranglehold on your team. Small chance sure but a chance nonetheless.

If a whole team can't break out of Main with all the build points, ammo and fast spawns available, are they really going to fare much better out on the map? At that point I'd be more concerned about the skill imbalance in the server, or the map/layer design if the layer's unbalanced.

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On 6/16/2019 at 1:18 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

Ok, I stand corrected. 10 seconds isn't instantaneous lol! But the consequences were negligible because even if there wasn't a motorcycle, dune buggy, chopper or APC at main the very second you respawned it seemed like you never waited more than 30 seconds it seemed.

ah, yeah, totally agreee with that! - so many times spawn at X and wait a bit for the vic i just blew up in to respawn :)

On 6/16/2019 at 1:18 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

That said, just imagine how Joint Operations AAS mode would have played out if you could have put down rally points or HAB's lol.

see this is where we diverge, i believe, as i can't read which way you've lent in that 2nd comment, so i''l go out on a limb hrere: i believe it would not go well at all.

- I can't stand the "Rally-Point" idea (of any kind). it's cheesey and arcadey and promotes poor gameplay.

- Of HABs, they can/do divert attention away from the objective of the game: im not as sure (yet) but still would see them as rather useless in JO - we did get a vehiclePSP (BTR -w spawn) at one point, was it in Esci or one of the ICE mods? i can't remember.

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3 hours ago, LaughingJack said:

 

see this is where we diverge, i believe, as i can't read which way you've lent in that 2nd comment, so i''l go out on a limb hrere: i believe it would not go well at all.

- I can't stand the "Rally-Point" idea (of any kind). it's cheesey and arcadey and promotes poor gameplay.

- Of HABs, they can/do divert attention away from the objective of the game: im not as sure (yet) but still would see them as rather useless in JO - we did get a vehiclePSP (BTR -w spawn) at one point, was it in Esci or one of the ICE mods? i can't remember.

Considering the fact that Wes Eckhart and his team at Novalogic are the actual inventor's of the AAS game mode I'd still make the point that the OWI team has essentially improved and refined the mode by adding many innovative and creative features that Joint Operations lacked. Face it, the gameplay of AAS mode in Joint Operations was extremely linear simply due to the flag turning into the spawn point and ammo resupply upon capture.

 

In that respect OWI has made AAS mode more about strategy and tactics which sadly got partially deluded when they listened to all the "Rush Meta" Reddit crybabies and removed it to placate them in v10.

 

However, the OWI AAS mode is still head and shoulders above anything else in the genre and concerns about trivial things like "Buddy Rallies" and such are quite insignificant compared to the overall picture and the direction the completed game will be.

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21 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Considering the fact that Wes Eckhart and his team at Novalogic are the actual inventor's of the AAS game mode I'd still make the point that the OWI team has essentially improved and refined the mode by adding many innovative and creative features that Joint Operations lacked. Face it, the gameplay of AAS mode in Joint Operations was extremely linear simply due to the flag turning into the spawn point and ammo resupply upon capture.

 

In that respect OWI has made AAS mode more about strategy and tactics which sadly got partially deluded when they listened to all the "Rush Meta" Reddit crybabies and removed it to placate them in v10.

 

However, the OWI AAS mode is still head and shoulders above anything else in the genre and concerns about trivial things like "Buddy Rallies" and such are quite insignificant compared to the overall picture and the direction the completed game will be.

yeah look i agree with that mostly; some things might have been beneficial.

yes JO is very linear but so is Squad(aas) when you really look closely - the only difference i see is Squad is a much more Complex game overall, mainly due to logistics, building etc. (JO Armouries were always; access any time by any team).

"In that respect OWI has made AAS mode more about strategy and tactics" absolutely right, although there was plenty of strategy involved in JO, heck i'd say more because we had vastly larger maps and far more assets of a wider variety - when Squad goes RC1 then we can really compare

"However, the OWI AAS mode is still head and shoulders above anything else in the genre"  currently/recent past; again, absolutely!

 

Buddy Rallies and Ammopacks. my very first thought on these when i heard them announced: "<sigh> BF-crap in Squad now? ... really?!"

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The survey was worded in such a way as to present OWI with the answers it wanted. Simply validated the direction many suspected it was going - arcadey rush rush rush COD crowd gameplay. 

 

I have not played since V13 came out, and can not stomach more than half a round right now. 

 

Thank god for modding - maybe they can make the game we were promised when we paid for the kickstarter?

 

Just my opinion. 

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7 hours ago, Jeepo said:

The survey was worded in such a way as to present OWI with the answers it wanted. Simply validated the direction many suspected it was going - arcadey rush rush rush COD crowd gameplay. 

 

I have not played since V13 came out, and can not stomach more than half a round right now. 

 

Thank god for modding - maybe they can make the game we were promised when we paid for the kickstarter?

 

Just my opinion. 

Same here...

 

haven´t played in almost 3 months now

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