Jump to content
MeAWarChild

What SPECIFICALLY is your problem?

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Xx-RAGING-DEATH-xX said:

Why are people are still Crying about 'Buddy Rally'?

It has been already been confirmed that its being nurfed out...

It has been a long journey to take us to this point.I will not take Judgement until Squad Final release.

 

 

Taking out buddy rallies for helo release is not enough to fix the game. They need to

  • Make rallies despawn after 60s unless placed within 75m of friendly FOB/APC/Flag
  • Increase HAB overrun radius to 100m to force people from placing HAB on CAPs
  • Make HABs smaller so they are easier to hide

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, dolmaface said:

“”

 

7 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

“”

First, the rally issue. As I previously explained, in this thread, v13 in particular

On 6/6/2019 at 6:00 PM, TheRubbaPelican said:

...illuminated an underlying issue that has been around for a while (I believe it is titled the “rush meta”), while making it easier on a good squad hindered by bad ones. I’m not going to say that the updates are good, but this is what I’ve noticed in most v13 discussions.

It’s not so much the rallies or game mechanics as it is the players. Staying alive is less important because no one values (or pay attention to) tickets like they should. The whole “rush meta” is not incentivized by game mechanics, but by enthusiastic players eager to get back into the action and enjoy the experience only Squad provides. The lack of tactics can’t really be blamed on game mechanics, that lies on players (not necessarily a bad thing either. Some servers/communities are more casual, some aren’t.)

Second, the casualness/realistic-ness of mechanics in Squad have been discussed endlessly (I’ve explained this a lot...), and perhaps we won’t ever see an end to the discussion. However, in it’s current form, Squad provides an open platform to execute maneuvers, move with tactical excellence and cunning, and do well, or mindlessly charge, blow some stuff up, and get a mixed bag (it works sometimes, depending on how the other team plays). Are there problematic mechanics? Sure (buddy rallies aren’t my favorite when they’re used to advance the whole platoon), but that doesn’t change the fact that Squad is team-oriented or has a certain recipe for success (advanced tactics and coordination), nor will it change  through virtually any new mechanic or system. What it comes down to is this: OWI is a business trying to make money, yes, but they’ve already cemented a good chunk of their product and it’s key features. We can talk about how awful this feature is or how great that mechanic will be, but none of that can really change what Squad is (again, within reason, killstreak gunship calls or the like might change it just a little... :P).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

 

First, the rally issue. As I previously explained, in this thread, v13 in particular

It’s not so much the rallies or game mechanics as it is the players. Staying alive is less important because no one values (or pay attention to) tickets like they should. The whole “rush meta” is not incentivized by game mechanics, but by enthusiastic players eager to get back into the action and enjoy the experience only Squad provides. The lack of tactics can’t really be blamed on game mechanics, that lies on players (not necessarily a bad thing either. Some servers/communities are more casual, some aren’t.)

Second, the casualness/realistic-ness of mechanics in Squad have been discussed endlessly (I’ve explained this a lot...), and perhaps we won’t ever see an end to the discussion. However, in it’s current form, Squad provides an open platform to execute maneuvers, move with tactical excellence and cunning, and do well, or mindlessly charge, blow some stuff up, and get a mixed bag (it works sometimes, depending on how the other team plays). Are there problematic mechanics? Sure (buddy rallies aren’t my favorite when they’re used to advance the whole platoon), but that doesn’t change the fact that Squad is team-oriented or has a certain recipe for success (advanced tactics and coordination), nor will it change  through virtually any new mechanic or system. What it comes down to is this: OWI is a business trying to make money, yes, but they’ve already cemented a good chunk of their product and it’s key features. We can talk about how awful this feature is or how great that mechanic will be, but none of that can really change what Squad is (again, within reason, killstreak gunship calls or the like might change it just a little... :P).

 

But the game mechanics are at fault. The purpose of game mechanics is to guide the meta in the correct direction: it should punish players for not surviving and not working as a team. The way the mechanics are currently setup actually rewards players for not surviving, or for placing FOBs on flags. Why would I wait 6 minutes for a medic to revive when I can respawn at the nearby rally and do something more effective for 6 minutes? Yea, giving up will lose the team a ticket, but the 6 minutes that I am doing something effective gives me the opportunity to support my team and potentially save further ticket loss, or damage the other teams tickets. In fact the game actually encourages people who care about tickets to run and gun, because the rally/FOB mechanics are so forgiving!

 

It is not the players, it is the mechanics, because the mechanics drive the meta. All games converge to whatever ideal strategies+decisions the mechanics provide.

 

Think about it this way, if for example the devs completely removed rallys from the game (this is just an example I am not recommending this), then players attacking enemy objectives would no longer give up immediately and respawn at a nearby rallies...because they literally cannot.They would be left two options: wait for a medic, or respawn at the FOB which is probably far away. In this scenario the game mechanics encourage the player to survive and wait for a medic, because they don't want to have to go all the way back to the FOB/lose their positioning.

 

Tickets costs are not a reliable mechanic for driving meta, since most players on public servers don't care about saving tickets, and it doesn't actually force them to limit their decisions like my example above.

 

 

Edited by dolmaface

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the meat grinder meta was partly due to mechanics and partly due to players, but you actually bring up some very good points.


You essentially described what is known as opportunity cost in business and mathematics/game theory. If i do X, don't i lose the potential gains of doing Z instead during that time? If i play carefully, don't i lose the potential to harm the enemy more than my own team is harmed by my recklessness, simply by being active on the hot zones of the map for more time per round?

 

This is always a balancing act in any zero-sum game (a game where in order for one player to win something, another must lose something equal...a team can win a cap if the other team loses that cap, and so on). However, if the gains of attempting a certain action are considerably bigger than the risks of failing in the execution of that action, it mathematically makes sense to always perform the action every single time. in such a case, the game balance is skewed in favor of a certain action, which makes gameplay predictable because players will always gravitate towards the optimal scenario. Since the cost for ticket loss is perceivably less than the gain if i keep going in, i keep going in fast and careless and try to kill as many as possible before i die.

 

Instead of having to balance own ticket loss vs ticket cost to the enemy, there is a lot of incentive to disregard ticket loss and keep attacking. This in turn presents further problems in the few cases where it makes sense to defend, because the player base is conditioned to prefer attacking at any cost and they lack the experience to defend. We see it a lot, HABs directly on the point, everyone inside compounds with no perimeter/proactive defence and either only a couple of lookouts or the entire squad bunching up in the most obvious places (rooftops, towers). The lookouts get taken out first with long range fire (MGs and grenadiers), the enemy piles in, defender HABs and rallies are disabled, while attacker rallies are still active because they are outside the cap, and if they get despawned there is always the buddy rally. The attack is more powerful, and is made even more so by the players' lack of experience in defence.

 

The whole team piles into the next enemy cap and if a squad stays back to defend their existing front line, the rest of the team will often pressure them to join into the attack. And since the enemy is conditioned to do the same, the moment you leave the cap you start losing it, along with any HABs placed on it. From that point on, it becomes just a race. Whoever was closer to the other team's cap with more people, can probably neutralize and cap first, especially since you can't easily wipe squads because of the buddy rallies.

 

To cut a long story short, players adjust to the game at hand. They will generally optimize their actions to do what is most effective according to the mechanics in play. And the current mechanics make it effective to play recklessly, unrealistically and predictably.

 

That being said, i'm not grinding an axe against OWI. I just like analyzing systems (my formal training is in computer science, so i tend to look at the big picture as sum of smaller parts and think like an engineer a lot). The new territory control mode is very promising (as long as players learn to execute encirclements , especially with armor, but like we said, players adjust) and we still have to see how the upcoming addition of helicopters will shake up the current meta.

 

Until then, the only thing we can do is take up the SL position and try to show other players there is more than one way to play the game, even under the current mechanics. I've done it a few times when the original SL got disconnected and despite me not having a lot of experience in the role, we once managed to hold a point for quite a long time with our HAB outside it and rallies inside, even running back and forth between HAB and cap at times to defend both. So i guess that if i can do it with my limited SL experience, things are not as bad as it may seem from our complaints. It's just that we need some more balance in the meta which, like you correctly said, must take a nudge from some adjustment in the mechanics to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dolmaface said:

Why would I wait 6 minutes for a medic to revive when I can respawn at the nearby rally and do something more effective for 6 minutes? Yea, giving up will lose the team a ticket, but the 6 minutes that I am doing something effective gives me the opportunity to support my team and potentially save further ticket loss, or damage the other teams tickets. In fact the game actually encourages people who care about tickets to run and gun, because the rally/FOB mechanics are so forgiving!

 

It is not the players, it is the mechanics, because the mechanics drive the meta. All games converge to whatever ideal strategies+decisions the mechanics provide-

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, dolmaface said:

It is not the players, it is the mechanics, because the mechanics drive the meta. All games converge to whatever ideal strategies+decisions the mechanics provide.

This is true to a point. In Squad, I’d argue it isn’t as true as it is in other games. Do people create strategies based on what the mechanics are like? Definitely. The problem I see with the argument you make is that you assume that certain aspects of rallies are at fault for this gameplay, and that HABs won’t be able to do what a rally does. The simple ability to magically resurrect yourself creates the same carefree attitude that you want to stop. All the current rally mechanics do is ensure you won’t be stuck playing reckless “run’n’gun” style for longer than you have to. Even if I have to walk a little ways more than usual, or wait longer to get back to the battlefield, it’s still worth more than sitting and shouting “MEDIC” and hoping someone comes.The issue at large here is not with the rally only, or HAB location, but the existence of respawn capabilities in game.

13 hours ago, dolmaface said:

Tickets costs are not a reliable mechanic for driving meta, since most players on public servers (don’t care)

This is where I agree. Tickets don’t mean much to the average public player. This, through, is a result of player psychology, not mechanics. OWI needs something that shows the importance and value of tickets to players, otherwise the rush meta will continue. A better understanding of ticket value and what it means to give up, lose a vehicle, etc is what will best stop the careless play some engage in. Perhaps a post-game stat that shows overall ticket loss/loss caused would be a good motivator to conserve tickets, lest you be called out by the entirety of the server.

Edited by TheRubbaPelican
Random formatting issues

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

Perhaps a post-game stat that shows overall ticket loss/loss caused would be a good motivator to conserve tickets, lest you be called out by the entirety of the server.

Shaming players to motivate them will never work especially now days when everyone is so fragile and unique. I mean the game has literally evolved to make players basically immortal so that feelings don't get hurt and everyone is a winner right? Needless to say, holding people accountable for their actions at the end of a match will drive even more people away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

A better understanding of ticket value and what it means to give up, lose a vehicle, etc is what will best stop the careless play some engage in. Perhaps a post-game stat that shows overall ticket loss/loss caused would be a good motivator to conserve tickets, lest you be called out by the entirety of the server.

Already suggested, and I don't think it's going to fly, probably to protect special snowflakes who can't take criticism even when they screw up the round for 30+ other people by wasting tickets. Even if the tickets are the most important thing in the game, somehow making them important in player's minds isn't a priority. As to why that is, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

 

1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Shaming players to motivate them will never work especially now days when everyone is so fragile and unique. I mean the game has literally evolved to make players basically immortal so that feelings don't get hurt and everyone is a winner right? Needless to say, holding people accountable for their actions at the end of a match will drive even more people away.

I must say this sounds rather strange coming from you, when you were always the one asking devs to treat their community like adults.

 

@TheRubbaPelican, of course the way the game plays now is primarily due to the gameplay mechanics. Player mentality plays a huge role, and I've bemoaned the mentality of Squad players for years now, but the type of thinking you will see in game is absolutely determined by the mechanics before anything else can be even taken into account. Nobody will buy a game they didn't like in the first place just to try if they can go against the grain and play it completely differently than it's supposed to be played. Players come to Squad because the mechanics seem to appeal to them, and only later form their mentality and approach based on their experiences.

 

Whatever the state of the game is now, you can blame or praise the devs for pretty much 90% of it. The player behavior ultimately comes down to what the game allows them to do and more importantly to what they're punished and rewarded for:

 

  • Non-stop spawning is not punished, so everybody will continue to give up as soon as they die unless it becomes less effective. This drives away people like me who don't like the constant battlefield-ish action, thus you're left with players who enjoy this arcade playstyle - player mentality didn't change, only the makeup of the player base.

 

  • Earlier, rushing was an easy way to win that was hard to counter, so the entire meta revolved around rushing. Even players who didn't like rushing did it, because they knew they would otherwise lose each round in the first 5 minutes. The game mechanics were in such a state that no matter what you thought about it, you either rushed or you lost. The only thing that played a role there was the player's desire to win, otherwise the most important decisions were driven by - you guessed it - mechanics.

 

  • A lot of players don't play in squads because they like the teamwork, but rather to grab shiny kits and in order not to get kicked from servers - seeking reward while avoiding punishment. This is a simple example of mechanics that clash with the player mentality, for me it's a result of inconsistent design combined with this weird transitional period between hardcore and arcade.

 

  • People will quite often brag about having the most points, even though the points you get in the game are pretty much arbitrary and almost never reflect the contribution of individual players during the game. Again, players are seeking what seems like rewards, even if they must understand that they're ultimately meaningless - players will do what they're rewarded for, often even in spite of logic and reason.

 

I like to think that every game gets exactly the player base it deserves. Gameplay mechanics are simply the most powerful tool to shape how players will act, they set the rewards and punishments, and they determine who even plays the game in the first place.

Edited by MultiSquid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


"I must say this sounds rather strange coming from you, when you were always the one asking devs to treat their community like adults."

 

My position hasn't changed in the slightest. I'm simply making an observation about the odd juxtaposition of features, attributes and elements added to the game that have been seemingly custom tailored to appeal to a more low I.Q. Discordish emoji community.

 

An fps game where everyone is basically immortal is completely and utterly illogical just like an fps game promising a Sniper role and then instead putting an "Unarmed" role never even mentioned makes about as much sense as socks on a rooster.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MultiSquid said:

Already suggested, and I don't think it's going to fly, probably to protect special snowflakes who can't take criticism even when they screw up the round for 30+ other people by wasting tickets. Even if the tickets are the most important thing in the game, somehow making them important in player's minds isn't a priority. As to why that is, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

 

I must say this sounds rather strange coming from you, when you were always the one asking devs to treat their community like adults.

 

@TheRubbaPelican, of course the way the game plays now is primarily due to the gameplay mechanics. Player mentality plays a huge role, and I've bemoaned the mentality of Squad players for years now, but the type of thinking you will see in game is absolutely determined by the mechanics before anything else can be even taken into account. Nobody will buy a game they didn't like in the first place just to try if they can go against the grain and play it completely differently than it's supposed to be played. Players come to Squad because the mechanics seem to appeal to them, and only later form their mentality and approach based on their experiences.

 

Whatever the state of the game is now, you can blame or praise the devs for pretty much 90% of it. The player behavior ultimately comes down to what the game allows them to do and more importantly to what they're punished and rewarded for:

 

  • Non-stop spawning is not punished, so everybody will continue to give up as soon as they die unless it becomes less effective. This drives away people like me who don't like the constant battlefield-ish action, thus you're left with players who enjoy this arcade playstyle - player mentality didn't change, only the makeup of the player base.

 

  • Earlier, rushing was an easy way to win that was hard to counter, so the entire meta revolved around rushing. Even players who didn't like rushing did it, because they knew they would otherwise lose each round in the first 5 minutes. The game mechanics were in such a state that no matter what you thought about it, you either rushed or you lost. The only thing that played a role there was the player's desire to win, otherwise the most important decisions were driven by - you guessed it - mechanics.

 

  • A lot of players don't play in squads because they like the teamwork, but rather to grab shiny kits and in order not to get kicked from servers - seeking reward while avoiding punishment. This is a simple example of mechanics that clash with the player mentality, for me it's a result of inconsistent design combined with this weird transitional period between hardcore and arcade.

 

  • People will quite often brag about having the most points, even though the points you get in the game are pretty much arbitrary and almost never reflect the contribution of individual players during the game. Again, players are seeking what seems like rewards, even if they must understand that they're ultimately meaningless - players will do what they're rewarded for, often even in spite of logic and reason.

 

I like to think that every game gets exactly the player base it deserves. Gameplay mechanics are simply the most powerful tool to shape how players will act, they set the rewards and punishments, and they determine who even plays the game in the first place.

+1

 

3 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

The problem I see with the argument you make is that you assume that certain aspects of rallies are at fault for this gameplay...The issue at large here is not with the rally only, or HAB location, but the existence of respawn capabilities in game.

YOu don´t need to get as far as having one life event kind of mechanics. Just make is more punishing. Longer respawn timer, no buddy rally, easier disabled habs, etc. 

 

Make players know that the most effective way to win...is STAYING ALIVE.... that´s a step towards a more realistic combat experience. RIght now, I can spawn run, gun, die, respawn...and do it all again, without the need to communicate. All that achieveing a much better kd ratio that I had in v12. Why? well, now I don´t need the squad around. Actually having my squad around is many times a liability because I 9 men get spotted more easily tan 1.

 

They don´t have to look too far for successful mechanics, and the devs know it, the only reason why they wouldnt implement it is becuse that drives more arcade oriented players away, and i don´t think they want that.. All we can expect now is they créate a game that can be modded, and some dedicated people to mod it.

Edited by Nightingale87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nightingale is right about the "punishing" part... its probably just a reflection of society actually where we now routinely reward mediocrity in the name "fairness".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Nightingale is right about the "punishing" part... its probably just a reflection of society actually where we now routinely reward mediocrity in the name "fairness".

I wouldnt go as far as to make a sociological claim...

 

All I know is that people that wanna "pew-pew" are gonna keep run and gun until mechanics provide an environment in which that is an awful tactic and they are punished with minutes of waiting.

 

Having constant firefights makes the game boring. The more special moments one after the other the less special each of those moments is. The tensión is asimilated and nothing is special anymore. That´s what is making SQUAD just less special.

Edited by Nightingale87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nightingale then how else would you explain it? Certainly all the fundamental changes in the game logic from around v10 on have seemingly been reactive and not proactive and all designed to placate a certain vocal community. v9 laser rifles to v10 drunken swayfest, HABs because FOB's are too hidden, then farming meatgrinder HAB's, then to proximity disabling HAB's, non-medic revives, rushing the first flag, nerf rushing, then rushing central flag so add fog of war and now buddy rally's, no instagibs etc etc etc the list goes on.

 

Honestly, the version before vehicles was probably was the best playing iteration regarding being "punishing" because you had to play smart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What it comes down to in the end is that the respawn mechanics we’ve suggested tweaking in this thread can only affect respawns. The devs could try adjusting spawntimes, but that makes it just as difficult to perform tactically as it does make rushing difficult. If a rally had a 90 second timer, that’s a minute and a half that you have to predict what happens, where the enemy is now, and how best to respond. The more time we add, the more difficult it becomes to play the game for everyone (we all make mistakes, or have situations where the enemy does something so stupid it works). There are so many human factors (the result of Squad’s almost-sandbox playability) that mechanics can only control so much. This is also demonstrated in the different experiences I have on my usual servers compared to you, @Nightingale87 , or you,@MultiSquid. The mechanics influence, but do not dictate gameplay, which is ultimately in the control of the players/communities by a large margin. I feel that the cost of making certain changes discussed in this thread is too much for the amount of influence these changes are going to have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Having constant firefights makes the game boring. The more special moments one after the other the less special each of those moments is. The tensión is asimilated and nothing is special anymore. That´s what is making SQUAD just less special.

This is also a big thing. It's like we're in constant storm mode. We don't have the clam before the storm, so the storm itself is nothing special, it's just business as usual. Some of my most intense moments in the past happened when we were strolling through the woods on a deep flanking mission to be in place to secure the next cap before the enemy could react, only to be spotted and surprised by a lone, well-placed MG rearguard and start taking casualties.

 

Just imagine it. You just flew through 3/4 of the map in a chopper, bypassing the entire enemy team biting your nails along the way. Will they spot us or not? You managed to find a suitable landing zone and dismount undetected. You started moving cautiously into the forest and just when you thought everything was going to go fine until you reach the cap you're assigned to flank....dakka dakka dakka, screen goes blurry, run for cover, try to find where you're getting shot from and hear your squad buddies screaming as they go down, while the first volley of mortars starts zeroing in on your position. I miss that kind of stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

What it comes down to in the end is that the respawn mechanics we’ve suggested tweaking in this thread can only affect respawns. The devs could try adjusting spawntimes, but that makes it just as difficult to perform tactically as it does make rushing difficult. If a rally had a 90 second timer, that’s a minute and a half that you have to predict what happens, where the enemy is now, and how best to respond.

This piece. Right there. Even in your example you can see that the current mechanic is TOO MUCH run and gun. If you died, forget about where the enemy is. Because it´s not just about those 90 seconds (or 2 minutes better), it´s about respawning so far from combat that ther is no way telling where the enemy is going to be, or even if you are relevant to the fight in that par of the map anymore. You need now to coordinate transport and new way of approach, whole new game now for you and your squad. And that is abbout communication and teamwork. That is PR gameplay. This thing about respawning and going after the guys who got me is much closer to BF/COD tan it has ever been, and makes the game "meh".

4 minutes ago, Burningbeard80 said:

This is also a big thing. It's like we're in constant storm mode. We don't have the clam before the storm, so the storm itself is nothing special, it's just business as usual. Some of my most intense moments in the past happened when we were strolling through the woods on a deep flanking mission to be in place to secure the next cap before the enemy could react, only to be spotted and surprised by a lone, well-placed MG rearguard and start taking casualties.

 

Just imagine it. You just flew through 3/4 of the map in a chopper, bypassing the entire enemy team biting your nails along the way. Will they spot us or not? You managed to find a suitable landing zone and dismount undetected. You started moving cautiously into the forest and just when you thought everything was going to go fine until you reach the cap you're assigned to flank....dakka dakka dakka, screen goes blurry, run for cover, try to find where you're getting shot from and hear your squad buddies screaming as they go down, while the first volley of mortars starts zeroing in on your position. I miss that kind of stuff.

I hear you dude....

 

I thought squad was going that way. I guess we can always stick to PR.

Edited by Nightingale87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

This piece. Right there. Even in your example you can see that the current mechanic is TOO MUCH run and gun. If you died, forget about where the enemy is. Because it´s not just about those 90 seconds (or 2 minutes better), it´s about respawning so far from combat that ther is no way telling where the enemy is going to be. You need now to coordinate transport and new way of approach, whole new game now for you and your squad. That is PR gameplay. This thing about respawning and going after the guys who got me is much closer to BF/COD tan it has ever been, and makes the game "meh".

I think we’re starting to come to a clear point of agreement, and one of contention. I totally agree that it would be much better for gameplay to essentially start a “whole new game” (although it may get excessively frustrating from time to time based on enemy and friendly squads’ movements), but I don’t see how this is going to eliminate the rushing or bring back tactics. This will make those who adhere to the tactics and strategic planning Squad requires take it to the next level, but those who don’t care aren’t going to care, and they’ll burn through tickets and lose the game because of it. The mechanics will make them more upset, perhaps more careful (not necessarily tactical, just a bit slower), but that doesn’t mean that the rush is going to stop. The whole idea of rushing, after all, is recklessly charging headfirst regardless of what you do and do not know, so creating unknowns isn’t going to change that. I’ll admit, you’ve convinced me that a spawntime increase could be more enjoyable for myself on a personal or squad level, but I have yet to see anything that assures me these modifications will make people care about the effects of their actions.

Edited by TheRubbaPelican

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Increasing spawntimes simply results in people alt tabbing out to watch a video, taking a smoke break, grab a beer, potty break or go make a sandwich it does nothing to improve the quality of gameplay. In that respect low respawn times and buddy rally keep people playing. How many times previously before buddy rally have you looked at the map and seen only 10 out of your team of 40 actually alive on the map right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

I think we’re starting to come to a clear point of agreement, and one of contention. I totally agree that it would be much better for gameplay to essentially start a “whole new game” (although it may get excessively frustrating from time to time based on enemy and friendly squads’ movements), but I don’t see how this is going to eliminate the rushing or bring back tactics. This will make those who adhere to the tactics and strategic planning Squad requires take it to the next level, but those who don’t care aren’t going to care, and they’ll burn through tickets and lose the game because of it. The mechanics will make them more upset, perhaps more careful (not necessarily tactical, just a bit slower), but that doesn’t mean that the rush is going to stop. The whole idea of rushing, after all, is recklessly charging headfirst regardless of what you do and do not know, so creating unknowns isn’t going to change that. I’ll admit, you’ve convinced me that a spawntime increase could be more enjoyable for myself on a personal or squad level, but I have yet to see anything that assures me these modifications will make people care about the effects of their actions.

I´m basing all my claims in the experience provided by PR gameplay. 

 

People DO care.

 

Tactics DO change and ressemble more real combat tactics.

 

And rushing is DESIRED yet hard to achieve and to every rusher there´s an ambush waiting.

 

This is what I meant when I said they don´t have to look far. All that was achieved a a long time ago by PR. There´s a reason Why people (me included) keep playing it. PR is it´s own special unique gameplay thing. Squad can be that, or, … sell mor copies (under the pretext that it´s it´s own thing and gameplay).

 

10 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Increasing spawntimes simply results in people alt tabbing out to watch a video, taking a smoke break, grab a beer, potty break or go make a sandwich it does nothing to improve the quality of gameplay. In that respect low respawn times and buddy rally keep people playing. How many times previously before buddy rally have you looked at the map and seen only 10 out of your team of 40 actually alive on the map right?

For all I care you can set respawn timer to 0. As long as there aren´t any rallies and you can only spawn on habs and main. The point is not having people waiting (that is a method, not the only one), but creating mechanics where there are consequences for dying. Rigt now, I do´nt feel any. There isn´t even a consequence for the whole squad being wiped out. You just spawn somewhere and keep shooting in less than 30 seconds. Constant action means no action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

For all I care you can set respawn timer to 0. As long as there aren´t any rallies and you can only spawn on habs and main. The point is not having people waiting (that is a method, not the only one), but creating mechanics where there are consequences for dying. Rigt now, I do´nt feel any. There isn´t even a consequence for the whole squad being wiped out. You just spawn somewhere and keep shooting in less than 30 seconds. Constant action means no action.

Joint Operations invented AAS and the consequences for dying were negligible as well as it was an instantaneous respawn. You could either spawn at any of the previous flags you had taken or main and then grab a disposable vehicle.

 

I was thinking about what you said regarding consequences and then it came to me. What's the one thing of value in Squad that players care about above all else? It's their precious "role". So what if the penalty for dying and giving up too much was an auto kick from the role back to a basic rifleman and the squad itself would lose the role as well? So not only would it punish the individual but also the whole squad as well as the role would be gone.

 

So for example it would be like baseball; 3 strikes and you're out of the role for the rest of the match. So now this suddenly makes life preservation extremely important in that sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I was thinking about what you said regarding consequences and then it came to me. What's the one thing of value in Squad that players care about above all else? It's their precious "role". So what if the penalty for dying and giving up too much was an auto kick from the role back to a basic rifleman and the squad itself would lose the role as well? So not only would it punish the individual but also the whole squad as well as the role would be gone.

 

So for example it would be like baseball; 3 strikes and you're out of the role for the rest of the match. So now this suddenly makes life preservation extremely important in that sense.

PR actually did something like this with specialist kits. Even some of the basic roles like LAT or grenadier and more specialised roles such as marksmen had a cooldown timer of 5-10 minutes that started once you spawned with the limited kit. If you got killed during the cooldown period the game simply wouldn't allow you to respawn with the same kit and you had to switch or wait. It definitely contributed to players not wanting to die, even waiting for the medics instead of giving up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MultiSquid said:

PR actually did something like this with specialist kits. Even some of the basic roles like LAT or grenadier and more specialised roles such as marksmen had a cooldown timer of 5-10 minutes that started once you spawned with the limited kit. If you got killed during the cooldown period the game simply wouldn't allow you to respawn with the same kit and you had to switch or wait. It definitely contributed to players not wanting to die, even waiting for the medics instead of giving up.

Yes. The old carrot on a stick. Losing the specialist kit not only effects the individual and the squad but also the entire team. Instead of a cooldown though I'd prefer the baseball 3 strikes and you're out paradigm because it gives players some wiggle room for errors yet has a profound effect on the teams composition.

 

Whilst on the topic, there should be a different mechanic that applies to the MBT's. There should be a new role called "Heavy Crewman" and once you lose a tank you're done for the match and you lose the role. This will cure the 3 idiots doing parkour around the Main Base for 30 minutes waiting for the MBT to respawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, i think the PR method is less punishing than what you suggested. I'm not worried about careless players getting annoyed, but i am worried about their actions having a larger negative effect on the team. We are already fighting against "selfish fun" for the benefit of "team fun", so i wouldn't want to maximize the potential of a few people to harm the entire team even more. Because let's face it, no matter the punishment, some guy will still take a limited kit and run off to the hills solo. Then when he dies, your team is missing a crucial role for the remainder of the match. It's not like everyone will jump at the chance to take HAT for example, especially if they don't know how to use it. Some people may be happy with their infantry role, so when the random guy dies and gives up, we could have cases where nobody fills that role and it's now left blank for extended periods of time during the round. Heck, i've had cases in PR where nobody wanted to fly choppers or even jets, when usually these two squads were the first to fill up in 90% of the matches.

 

In PR it was the specialist kits (snipers, HAT, etc, whatever kit was limited to 2 per team) and a couple of the normal ones (the grenadier was one of those for sure, don't remember about others) that had a timer. The important thing here is that the kits stayed on the field for the duration of the timer. So,  you had the ability to pick up kits from dead and injured soldiers, or trek across the map and pick up your own kit before it despawned. It makes sense to pick up the weapons of a dead squad mate if your squad really needs the role in a pinch, then you can change back once everyone is revived and the danger has passed.The injured part could be abused somewhat, because often people would just "steal" your limited kit as they passed by instead of reviving you. However, it might still be useful for squads that stick together.

 

A common scenario was when you would get surprised by an enemy vehicle. Your LAT/HAT guy would score a hit but was then incapacitated by the vehicle. You were a rifleman, so you would drop an ammo bag, take his kit, rearm and score a second hit, destroying the vehicle. Then your medic would revive him, you would drop his kit on the ground and pick up your rifleman kit and ammo bag again.

 

I still think the problem we are discussing is a combination of existing mechanics and player mentality (and most importantly, the mechanics often reinforcing that mentality), so i wouldn't want to restrict/punish players too much from the get go, before giving them a chance to adapt to a new style of play. In the above example, players were free to essentially steal kits from fallen comrades, but 90% of the time you could count on them not to abuse the mechanic. I played medic a LOT and countless times people would pick up my kit, revive and heal me and give it back to me, instead of just using up my medical supplies for their own benefit and leaving me there.

 

Point being, some of the things we talk about can be fixed by mechanics alone that guide the players to adapt to a new meta. But some cannot and it is for the players and community to self-moderate (e.g., server scripts, active admins and custom server rules). The issue is explained once again by gamification theorists as intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, in this case the carrot and the stick respectively. There has to be a balance between these two, because if we end up with too much stick and not enough carrot, people will either simply stop playing, or keep doing the same thing they always did and let the entire team suffer for their actions. It's a fine line.

Edited by Burningbeard80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys...I've really started believing recently that the devs are not going to adjust the spawning mechanics like we suggest, and the only way we are going to see them is through mods. I have been giving thought in making a mod that adjust the spawns like we want, and have talked to some people on the modding discord who explained that it would be quite simple. Is anyone else interested in working on this with me?

 

Really, the hard part would be getting enough people to play test it...and who knows, if it gains traction maybe the devs would change their mind?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, dolmaface said:

Guys...I've really started believing recently that the devs are not going to adjust the spawning mechanics like we suggest, and the only way we are going to see them is through mods. I have been giving thought in making a mod that adjust the spawns like we want, and have talked to some people on the modding discord who explained that it would be quite simple. Is anyone else interested in working on this with me?

 

Really, the hard part would be getting enough people to play test it...and who knows, if it gains traction maybe the devs would change their mind?

I'm waiting for the commander role release to start modding, but could work on spawn logic in the meantime. My thoughts are to remove rallies and limit FOBs to require ammo to respawn on HAB. All troop movement is to be accounted for by movement of ammo, vehicles and personnel from Main. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×