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Over half a year later, and still noone wants to be a SL.

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Assigning individual roles directly would be problematic to an extent. It's open to abuse both by bad SLs and selfish squad members.

 

Imagine for example if i just give all the cool kits to a buddy of mine or my little brother and just have the random guys i don't know play medic each time. Or imagine you assign someone to be a medic and he just leaves and joins another squad. No problem for now, you'd kick him either way. Then, another person joins and the same thing happens. If this happens 2-3 times at the start of the match you might have to repeat your initial plans/briefing at the start of the round for each new guy.

 

Most of all, it would really screw up squad cohesion and this is one of the things that can outright wipe a squad. I'm talking about people falling behind, having no available place to spawn, or spawning at rally points without the ammo they need for the job and so on, things which are actually quite frequent due to the way most players in public matches mismanage their limited amount of transport and logistics vehicles. Squads spawning partially and spreading out over large areas is the reason why you often don't have a LAT near your location or if you have one, he has no rockets (because he just had to change from a different kit and respawn at a rally, so he doesn't have the full ammo load) when that APC is turning the corner of the street and coming your way.

 

Limiting available roles on the other hand would be perfectly fine, especially if people joining the squad could see what kits are "banned" from the particular squad before joining it. Then let them get what they want from the allowed kits on a first come, first served basis. This way, they wouldn't join the squad in the first place if they couldn't take the kit they wanted, and the SL wouldn't have to deal will all of the above problems.

 

However, there is only so much you can do to solve these issues with hard-coded game mechanics. It's more efficient if the community deals with it. Be patient, don't be a spoiled brat and listen to your SL. The way it was done in PR is that the moment a squad filled up, the SL would just blurt out "2 medics, 2 riflemen, AR, grenadier, LAT,  breacher". Squad members would call out their kits as they were selecting them to help him confirm he had what he asked for. Someone might ask "can i take a marskman/HAT instead of LAT/MG instead of AR/whatever other specialist kit" after most critical roles were filled and the SL would say yes or no depending on squad composition and the objective he had in mind. If you didn't cooperate, you got kicked from the squad. If you joined a squad just to get a kit and then dropped out of it to go lone wolf it in your 1-man sniper squad, you were reported to the server admins and kicked from the server.

Nobody complained about the strict rules, because it all worked very well and you would get good games.

Edited by Burningbeard80

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The only time I don't like to SL is when there is an SL on my team that acts like an entitled brat that yells when he doesn't get his way. For the most part this isn't a common problem, luckily, but I've encountered people that are absolute dog shit at the game yet think they are God's gift to it because they played PR.

Edited by Thr34t

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Because being a SL requires a different skillset that pretty much any other role. At least when you want to play together with your team. You will spend a lot of time working together with the other parts of the team, while you also have to manage your squad, maybe place down emplacements and also manage yourself. 

 

What I can recommend for people who are afraid of picking SL is the following.

 

1. Create a smaller Squad

It is much easier to take care of a smaller squad. I also often feel that a Squad of 4 people made out of randoms will stick together more. When you have 8 people you often have some guys not being close enough because they think: there are enough other squad members close to the SL and so I don't have to do it.

 

2. If you go full Squad use Fireteams

A simple way is to split the squad into two fireteams and ask one guy to be essentially a fireteam leader. That should also get a lot of work of your own plate.

 

3. Simple objectives

Another good way to get more experience and confidence is to pick a simple task for your squad for a round. As a example you could designate your Squad to always defend the active cap in a round. You will need way less time thinking what to do and where to go. You can focus on the actual task and coordinate with the rest of the team.

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While not afraid of being SL, I think I'm gonna try to make a smaller squad next time. I easily get overburdened and while I try my hardest to lead on, while I try my hardest to keep having fun (and I do), there are times when the amount of people spread out, the amount of requests coming in, the amount of call outs can just be too much. My last game I had two guys constantly spreading out doing their own Call of Duty TDM. I find it hard to kick people for some reason and I try to just give in and let my team do what they want to do for the sake of their own fun. So then I end up pinned down in a compound, I'm asking for at least two guys on three different points, and I'm only getting two guys on one point and the rest are either dead or across the map or extending too far. This spread only makes things harder for me and then the sapper that's literally 900m away from me is on radio while we're getting shot at telling me to mark an enemy logi 300m from his pos. I'm too passive and it sucks.  Leading is fun though, hell ye.

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SLing in Squad is hands-off by design. You can tyrannically kick people or deny vehicles but you ultimately have no leverage over anyone else as SL. Take a truck, place a FOB, place rallies. place marks. That's all you can be reasonably asked to do.

 

Like we were saying for years, Rallies should never have been permanent spawns. Rallies were what kept Squads cohesion more than anything, because the best spawn point also got everyone together in one place. Repurposing them to band-aid fix lack of spawn points has been a huge blow to squad tactics. If anyone out there in 2019 is still trying to SL in  Squad the way they would in PR I'm amazed at their perseverance.

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Well, if it was Project Reality it would be already balanced for the most part. Everything would be in the game and we wouldn't have to come up with band-aid fixes until the rest of the mechanics and units are in. Of course, a game with over a decade under its belt will have a lot more content than a new game which is 3-4 years old, so i'm not exactly complaining. We'll probably get there in time.

 

I think most people who voice concerns do it because they fear the band-aids will remain as permanent features. I hope they will not, once we get the rest of the game fleshed out.

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There's an SL tutorial out there somewhere that explains the steps needed to have a good time leading. The best tip was to outline the plan and your expectations at the start of the round. For instance, I rarely want to command vehicle support so I will explain at the outset that I'm running an infantry squad. Then anyone who requests a vehicle gets a reminder to check the name of the squad (e.g. "Pinko INF") and a kick if they continue to ask for vics. 

 

As for roles, be sure to open the squad early at round start and explain the plan and the roles required to fulfill the plan. Most players will switch to roles if they know exactly why they are needed and how they'll be taking part in the action. For instance, if you are rushing the middle objective you will probably want 2 AT, 2 medics. The reasoning may be obvious to you, but not to your squaddies. So simply explain that you expect enemy vehicles to be present and there is a high likelihood of taking fire from the outset. This is much better than simply stating "2 LAT, 2 medics; no questions" because it clarifies the players' roles and gets them excited for their piece of the action. 

 

SLing can be a fun way to practice leadership skills, as long as you actually put those skills into practice. Communicate clearly, take advice and criticism graciously, be firm but fair. You might be surprised what you can then do with a bunch of internet randos. The tools are already there to have a great time as SL, you just need to learn to use them.

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I think you're correct. It's probably more about charisma and people skills than being a master tactician (although you do need to have a grasp of tactics too). A guy with a mediocre plan that can get his squad to commit and follow it will have more success than someone who makes perfect plans but cannot get anyone to stick to them.

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21 hours ago, pinko said:

There's an SL tutorial out there somewhere that explains the steps needed to have a good time leading.

 

I've found this one to be very useful. Still, the squad members are usually my biggest hurdle. They really make or break the fun in SLing for me.

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Since i joined a clan or a team (call it how ever you like).I do not have problems like that people rotate and you will hardly see the same SL in two games in a row.

However i do understand people not wanting to SL so many frustrating moments with your own squad players and not to talk about other squad leaders.

Edited by Bahrein

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On 2019-06-12 at 1:27 PM, Burningbeard80 said:

I think you're correct. It's probably more about charisma and people skills than being a master tactician (although you do need to have a grasp of tactics too). A guy with a mediocre plan that can get his squad to commit and follow it will have more success than someone who makes perfect plans but cannot get anyone to stick to them.

Exactly. You can make things more complicated once you develop a rapport with your squad. If you're playing with randoms you can gauge their ability and cater to their skill level in weapons and teamplay. Look for incremental progress, don't expect great strides in one round. 

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It was bloody hard to play as a squad leader. The effectiveness of your squad is dependent on your squad members. If you are getting at least 2 members that are willing to take orders, the squad is considered as functioning. You must keep in mind that you only have 2 guys playing with you...

 

In most situations, you will 2-3 squad members running around but not obeying your direct command. This means giving them a general objective and leave them be. e.g. find the enemy HAB, spot for vehicles, recon the flank from point A to point B, etc. Assign a fireteam to the blob will keep your hair attached to your head. 

 

The core team will NEVER follow your exact order. Therefore, you must bombard them with the intention of your move, which becomes your squad's objective. e.g. capturing a sector, attacking a HAB from a direction. The best that you can do is keeping a buddy beside you and throw rally point as you can. 

 

You will run into game that other squad leaders are quiet on the SL channel. If they are not talking. it is up to you to take up the challenge to coordinate all the squads. Since there are only SL receiving the call, don't be too nice to them. If they are not complying or doing anything productive, switch side or even switch server is the only option. 

 

Regardless on how patient you are, there is something you can't compromise. It is the kits that your squad members carry. For me, I always require 2 medics and a LAT. If no one volunteer, you must assign the role to a random member. The other issue is the marksman role. Make sure the role is not occupied by an inexperienced player. He must understand the basics of spotting and flanking. If they are not following this sole order, kick them off after a warning. It is better to have one fewer member rather than a rogue player that gives you false hope. Well, that's the basic mindset that you can have as squad leader. 

 

 

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Generally speaking, the reason it's hard to SL is because people expect you to do certain things well, but you can't try these things by yourself and learn in a safe environment. You have to go out and just do it during a live match, fail at it, and learn as you go, dragging down other people's gaming experience while you practice.

 

We had a similar issue when playing Project Reality. Most of the servers had very strict rules about wasting assets (especially heavy armor, close air support jets and attack helicopters). You could make a local server with bots and practice, but bots being bots meant that you didn't get the full dangerous experience of a live match. So you ended up in a situation where for example, you would practice and learn how to fly a chopper properly, but you had no idea of how to properly deploy countermeasures to spoof AA missiles unless you went in and did it in an actual game, risking a lot of tickets and a 20 minute respawn timer.

 

This was partially worked around by people running custom training servers with relaxed rules. But then you had to coordinate with random players in a server with almost no rules to come up with training scenarios. E.g "let's build a FOB with some AA here, then i'll switch teams, fly over, you try to shoot me down and i try to kill you". I played infantry for the most part because i didn't really want to risk tickets in a live match.

 

Squad servers have much more relaxed vehicle rules and it's not uncommon for people to just claim whatever they like, since vehicles are now quite cheap ticket-wise. But the SL position carries with it a burden that is hard to practice for outside a live match. I don't think it's so much a case of not stepping up or not caring. Even if you get a very cooperative squad (which we often don't), i think most people shy away from being SL simply because they fear they will do more harm than good.

 

Personally, i have about 150 hours in Squad but i had at least a few hundred hours in PR, possibly going as far as  a couple thousand (i wasn't keeping track really, just played a lot for 2-3 years), which was "stricter" and more punishing in certain aspects. So i can more or less read certain situations thanks to previous experience and i often have to restrain myself in order not to backseat SL. The PR community was much smaller, tighter and way more experienced on average and Squad is easier gameplay-wise in some respects, so i often find myself reading the situation ahead. But then i also like being a team player, so i try to stick with my squad and the chosen plan, because i know that a mediocre plan executed with some commitment will end up with better results than me telling the SL what to do, undermining his plan and having half the squad doing something different because they now have 2 people suggesting to do different things. Plus, it's much easier to read the map when you're a somewhat experienced grunt, than when you are an SL juggling with the rest of SL responsibilities, such as multiple comms channels and maintaining spawn points.

 

It was at that point that i realised i should maybe start going SL myself from time to time. I haven't actually started any squads yet, but when we lose an SL due to disconnects and nobody steps up, i just tell my squad to give it to me, letting them know in advance that i'm not very experienced in it and they'll have to stick close to me while we take it slow and safe. I've had a mixed bag of results leaning on the positive side, so i think i'll probably do it more. I just have to play different kits a bit more to get a better feel for what is possible, so that i can learn what is a reasonable level of performance to expect from my squad in the future.

 

What i did get from the initial experience though is that it pays off to take the position in situations that are not considered optimal gameplay scenarios. If i join a full server, make a squad at the beginning of the match and don't know what i'm doing, i'll probably get bad results. However, when a server is about 50%-60% full, when you team is getting steamrolled, when you just lost the SL due to a disconnect or when you have a bunch of new guys in your squad who just bought the game, i've found out that the expectations placed on you are generally lower. As a result, you have less pressure and you can think clearly enough to actually do well and learn a few things.

 

A couple of days ago i had such a round on Al Basrah. We were playing as British, we took a warrior IFV, back-capped the airport and moved straight to VCP, but our team was a bit slow in taking the previous point on the bridge, so we ended up getting pinned down in the VCP while our tanks helped take the bridge. As soon as we got the bridge, we lost the warrior and our SL probably crashed to desktop shortly after. At that point the squad was a mix of new guys who didn't know much about the game and more experienced players, who i expected to be either demoralized (due to knowing how things start going downhill in such cases) or about to go off and do their own thing. I told them to promote me, spawned main with a SL kit, brought a logi over, build a HAB and some ammo boxes on VCP and we managed to cap it. Then we started slowly and cautiously moving south into the city, consistently taking contact every 2-3 buildings. We kept reviving, setting down rallies and carefully pushing south. This bought our team some time to set up another FOB further south in the city and then we slowly started clearing buildings and capping the rest of the points.

 

I did make some mistakes in the process, like taking a logi back to main to resupply when it was almost full, and leaving my squad defending a recently capped point longer than needed. By the point i got back and started building another FOB, we won the round. Then i realised we might have actually been playing an invasion layer and there was no need to keep my guys waiting there in the first place, but they still complied and didn't even tell me anything xD

 

 

Edited by Burningbeard80

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For me best way to learn more in SL role at beginning (since very first game build) was making kinda motorized\mechanized infantry squad, when you can use vehicles and transport and support troops - idea is to quick drop mates to capture flags and get back to vehicles and move to other objective.
Since we have more APC\IFV , i can focused on armored  game-play with crewman, and assign fire-teams to help me or other squad.Just need to try and delegate responsibilities to someone,or just tell other SL's that you wanna support them with armor or infantry and tell your mates to follow other squads.

That's it, how it works.

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That's also a good point about delegating and is what generally happens in real armies as well. It's the continuation of the German (and even earlier, Prussian) doctrines in a modern setting, where you don't micromanage everything but tell your guys what needs to be done and they choose the best way to achieve it.

 

There are of course times when a SL has to take the reigns and steer the squad to a very specific goal, but it's true that people do better if they know why they need to do something, rather than just being told to do it.

 

If i just tell people to move to markers and follow me, sure, the team oriented players will comply but they will only do what i tell them to do. But if i tell my guys what the general plan is, they will also come up with ideas of their own and i won't have to think of every single possibility by myself.

 

"Alright guys, we will set up a FOB close to this objective, cap it and then move to that hill overlooking the intersection. We will camp there and ambush any enemy reinforcements, until another squad can cap the next objective, then we can move up with them". By telling them something like this, they know not only what is expected of them in a broader sense, but they can choose optimal positioning, get their firing lanes arranged and generally do things on their own. And as a grunt, it's also much more enjoyable because you know you're working towards a specific purpose and you don't just follow somebody around.

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I think many people will not pick the SL role for the same reason as me, we don't want to screw up.

 

This is a totally stupid reason, I get that. Without playing the role, you won't gain experience - I still can't get into the mindset to actually give it a try though.

 

Once I get more game and map knowledge, I will definitely try and test out the SL role.

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On 2019-07-01 at 10:25 AM, dan958 said:

I think many people will not pick the SL role for the same reason as me, we don't want to screw up.

 

This is a totally stupid reason, I get that. Without playing the role, you won't gain experience - I still can't get into the mindset to actually give it a try though.

 

Once I get more game and map knowledge, I will definitely try and test out the SL role.

Definitely do it. It's an important role, so you should feel nervous about it at first. Nerves tell you to watch what you're doing and take fewer risks. Just focus on your SL duties to start. Get that HAB up and defend it. As long as your squad can spawn in they'll be happy.

Once you get comfortable you can start getting creative.

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There is only one thing I can't tolerate if someone is playing SL. It is not having a mic. If you can't communicate with anyone via voice, SL is not an option for you. For everything else, you can learn it out through playing more. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 2:20 AM, Captain Morgan said:

 

Indeed.

 

I can usually get control of the Squad and lead them to do epic and helpful stuff, but there is undoubtedly a need for a commander role. Even if its just another SL that has some sort of special color or indication on the squad radio.

 

Invasion games would have a great benefit from this.

 

 

You basically have to be forceful and start handing out orders, and then just hope that they're going to listen. Unforatuntely there's really no other way. In AAS it's a little easier, as one good squad can sometimes overcome some crappy ones. In INV it's a lot harder as you usually need a lot more teamwork to get things accomplished.

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On 7/1/2019 at 7:25 AM, dan958 said:

I think many people will not pick the SL role for the same reason as me, we don't want to screw up.

 

This is a totally stupid reason, I get that. Without playing the role, you won't gain experience - I still can't get into the mindset to actually give it a try though.

 

Once I get more game and map knowledge, I will definitely try and test out the SL role.

If that's the reason you don't pick it, honestly I'd say try it. Pick your favorite server, jump on, wait for a map you know well and try it out. Best case you get a couple of vets in your squad or as other SLs who will work with you and help you out. SLing can be a lot of fun - especially with a decent squad. It can also be very stressful (especially if you're facing good SLs on the other team). Depending on the team, the opposition and how things are going, I can either SL for maps on end... or I take a break every other map.

One suggestion I'd make is if you're going to start SLing - lock your squad after you get 5/6 guys in it. Start with a smaller group as it'll make your life a little easier as you get used to all the different conversations that will go on. Let your guys know that you're a little green as an SL, and most will be willing to assist you without being an utter asshole about it. It's the same thing I say when I SL... anyone here new-ish to the game? If so, ask lots of questions. It makes your life easier to have an idea as to the exp of the guys in your squad.

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