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Globul Potato

FTL being able to place a rally

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Just hear me out before unleashing the standard "Nyet. Meta is fine"

 

The buddy rally created a major butth...... Was not received well. Why? Because it allowed the whole team to magically teleport from one part of the map to the other in a much more efficient way than current FOB does. It allowed bypassing the defenses. It wasn't liked for that reason.

What was its goal? To cut back on the downtime in the case of the squad being left without the SL being able to create a RP, resulting with spliting the squad into the ones that are still alive, and the reinforcements running/driving from the much further placed FOB, or even the Main Base. It was put there to make the consequences of SL death less severe.

So, since the Buddy Rally is definitelly a bad attempt to solve that problem, how can we do it in a different way?

Quite simple. Make FTLs also be able to place the rally point. Singular Rally point for the whole squad, replacing the old one, The same as SL, following the same rules (2.5 minute cooldown, 3 squadmates, etc.) with the addition of:

-SL has to approve it in the same way as vehicle claim (maybe added automatical map marker for where the FTL is putting it) If he approves, the deuce is dropped. He can be dead, he can be alive, doesn't matter. It just creates an option of sending the FTL to do it instead of SL. The time counter only starts AFTER the approval, if SL doesn't give the permission, there's no rally point and there's no cooldown. That way SL still has the full control over where they are put, and too eager yet incompetent FTLs dont hinder him.

-Only the first 2 (or 1, or 1 for regular forces and 2 for insurgents, whichever version you find the best) FTLs can do that. Why? so we don't end up with "4 FTL meta", like we did with "give it to AT for rangefinding" for some time. On top of that, its supposed to be a helping hand for the SL, not an overpowered "I can always choose 4 places to set the rally"


That way, when the SL dies the whole squad is not completely screwed, yet a major component of the squad has to get somewhere to put a rally there. There's no zipping around, other than FOB, which is much harder to set up.

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30 minutes ago, Globul Potato said:

The buddy rally created a major butth...... Was not received well. 

What was its goal? To cut back on the downtime in the case of the squad being left without the SL being able to create a RP, resulting with spliting the squad into the ones that are still alive, and the reinforcements running/driving from the much further placed FOB, or even the Main Base. It was put there to make the consequences of SL death less severe.
 

Well...

 

I´m not quite sure that was the goal.

 

First off, because after v12 rallies and habs not too many people were complaining about respawning tweeks (correct me if I´m wrong)

 

Second. I don´t remember any of the devs expressing that was the reason for buddy rally in any announcement. I think the community was caught off guard on that one since it came to solve a problem nobody was complaining about and the update news states that it´s one of those things to which they need feedback because it was experimental.

 

And finally, in your explanation you are assuming something you´re not saying, and that is, not that the SL is dead, but that the rally is gone. Which is already A LOT in terms of gaming. This buddy rally wants to make it easier to get the Squad together. The thing is, the way I see it (and many people) is that you shouldnt be forgiven for losing your rally and your SL. 

30 minutes ago, Globul Potato said:

That way, when the SL dies the whole squad is not completely screwed, yet a major component of the squad has to get somewhere to put a rally there. There's no zipping around, other than FOB, which is much harder to set up.

The thing is there is no obvious cause for the whole squad to be screwed if the SL dies. He should have placed a rally. A semi decent Sl will always make sure there´s a safe rally to spawn not far away. PERIOD. If he didn´t, then that´s exactly what a game is about, playing well, or playing poorly. 

 

Same way, a semi decent squad member will remind the Sl to place a rally before you all keep moving towards the enemy flag marked on the map and die helplessly. Because let´s face it, if the Sl didn´t place a safe rally, there´s no hab near to respawn, and no squad memeber pointed that out, then that´s what´s going to happen, and I only find it makes sense that a por squad performs poorly and I see no reason Why the game should help them keep playing poorly.

 

All that being said, the whole situation you pose is something that very rarely occurs in my experience.

Edited by Nightingale87

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Fine, then i see that problem. Better?

As for the implied Rally being down- no, its you who assumes it. I never wrote anything about it. Sure, the orginal Buddy Rally had/has this as a requirement, but this system doesn't. Its simply not necessary. Let FTL make a rally point in the name of SL. Thats it. Thats all it is. As for the things you write later- We're back again at the good old "punishing people for playing the game". You have this crazy idea that every SL is *** Winters reincarnated, and if not, he should be. That is a hyperbole, but let me ask you a question- why? Why make things harder than they should be just for the sake of your ego and "Git Gud" mentality.

Currently there are 2 outcomes to a RP being overrun.

1. SL is alive- He and one other guy create a new RP/ fall back enough to create another RP because the enemy is close

2. SL is dead- The whole squad has to spawn in the FOB or Main.

Only thing this adds is a 3rd outcome

3- SL is Dead- FTL and 3 squadmembers create a new RP/ fall back enough to create another RP because the enemy is close

BUT

he has to have 3 guys next to him, and there can't be any enemy close. You can still wipe out a squad, its just a bit harder to do. The main thing is- combat is closer and downtime is reduced.

 

I agree with "hardcore" ideas when they have a realistic reason behind them, but the arbitrary idea that this one magical squad member is vital to the squads survival is not one of them. Its a leftover from pre Fireteam days. Thats all it is. In reality when SL dies or is injured he is replaced by the next in line. In squad its not possible because of game mechanics. What i'm trying to do is bringing game mechanics a bit closer to real life. You may say its not needed, or its not a problem. I just find it a logical step forward, and thats what we should want- logical gameplay, not artificial arbitrary rules for the sake of rules.

 

EDIT. Huh. Guess the auto censorship doesn't like the shortened name of Richard Winters.

Edited by Globul Potato

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Honestly I think one of the major things that has turned off so many people to Squad is the massive fluctuations and inconsistencies in gameplay that concepts like the "Buddy Rally" create. Rewarding failure and punishing success is Buddy Rally's modus operandi.

 

Whilst the core views this constant tug-of-war between realistic MilSim & funtime Arcade, nerfing this vehicle & buffing this weapon and so on and so forth as simply "evolution" I think the general public is honestly fatigued after nearly four years of waiting for a finished product to be delivered. The equation of units sold versus daily peaks creating an approximate average of 0.3% reflects that as well.

 

Face it, everyone prefers consistency. This why fast food chains are so successful because people know what to expect regardless which location they choose. So on one hand you've got the original core group of backer who were mostly PR people who's expectations are basically PR with eye candy graphics and then you've got the rest of us who come from other communities and have  completely different expectations.

 

Therein lies the problem. You'll never satisfy everyone trying to be the fps game that appeals to everyone. That's just never going to happen unless you make two different versions of Squad instead of the version we have now that's constantly at war with itself and chasing it's tail like an old porch dog on a hot summer day.

 

Probably the best course of action in my opinion is to go back to the basics and fulfil the original promises made to the core by making a fancy PR and forget about making some Rube Goldberg hybrid that supposedly will appeal to everyone.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Globul Potato said:

As for the implied Rally being down- no, its you who assumes it. I never wrote anything about it. Sure, the orginal Buddy Rally had/has this as a requirement, but this system doesn't. Its simply not necessary. Let FTL make a rally point in the name of SL. Thats it. 

As I read the Op It seems to me that you pose the FTL rally point as an alternative to the Buddy rally. Therefore, another mechanic to  adress the same problem. A problem which I see not as a problem but as the game rules. Just as I said above.

 

If you read my post again I haven´t said anything about the FTL rally mechanic. I only point out that you suggest it to solve something which really isn´t problematic…

                       1...in my view.

                       2... in the community that never asked for it to be solved.

                       3.... to the devs who just implemented it BECAUSE. Just to try things out.

 

10 hours ago, Globul Potato said:

 As for the things you write later- We're back again at the good old "punishing people for playing the game". You have this crazy idea that every SL is *** Winters reincarnated, and if not, he should be. 

Well. You might be surprised to know that I only play public games. And most Sls are decent. So That situation of losing the SL and the rally, only happens to me once every 2 or 3 rounds. That is MY experience. It wasnt like that in the past. But for the last 2 years or so, that´s what it is. 

 

And not only it doesn´t happen often, but it´s exaclty one of the ways you have to defeat another squad in a firefight. 

1-achieve initiative trhough fire superiotiry (aka shoot them up good)

2- manouver around them (aka rush them around the flanks)

3- control (aka find their rally and kill it)

 

The 3 are rare. When they happen, you´re playing the game.

 

10 hours ago, Globul Potato said:

but let me ask you a question- why? Why make things harder than they should be just for the sake of your ego and "Git Gud" mentality.

Wow!...ok. I´ll tell my Ego to calm down. 

 

Now. Why make things easier??? (They´re simple enough)

 

And finally, you also pose the problem that when the Sl is down and there´s no rally (something we have already discussed enough), the problem is that you have to walk a lot. Well. If there´s no trasnport at main, or if there´s no apc close to it to give you a ride. Or no logi coming back to main. Then, that´s just a Team that may not be playing the top of their game and not ready to react to a squad being wiped out.

 

So...again. Why make things easier??? (They´re simple enough)

Edited by Nightingale87

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12 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Face it, everyone prefers consistency.

Good point.

Scouting the area to remove spawn points is a typical job. Having done this well just to have 18 people appear from a new direction immediately is disappointing. 

I am all for action, down time is wasted time for me.

But I like to know that I have earned some time to do some admin (supplies etc) or time to push forward.

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Don’t know that a new rally system is a good thing. I get the feeling that a FTL rally-placing ability is going to turn into an SL-undermining, ticket-burning mess, especially if an SL chooses the wrong guys to be FTL. It does get frustrating getting wiped out and having no rally at all, but it’s probably better for the bigger picture.

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I'd be fine with FTL's being able to create rallies if it were for just their own FT. It'd also need to be a timed rally, for cohesion, wait till everyone can spawn, and then all spawn together in like a 20 second time period before it dissapears.

And honestly, it should be placable only when the SL is alive.

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Joint Operations AAS game mode rewarded the capture of the control point with the ability to then spawn in on it. The team that lost the control point would then have to spawn back on their previous one. The same goes with ET:QW only an Engineer class had to activate the spawn point with his pliers. Neither game had the luxury of personally placed spawn points off the control point.

 

So yeah, rewarding low effort SL's that don't preplan and use the luxury feature of personally placed spawn points away from the control point with what amounts to as elementary school "do overs" in an effort to somehow keep the pace of the game going reeks of the "everyone gets a trophy" concept.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Thegreenzzz said:

Is that for me or zyl?

You lol, spawning in other SL's rally points is a 100% no for me no matter the reason for wanting it.

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Why don't we do this? Just have everyone be able to put a spawn point including vehicles, then things can get extra crazy!!

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Revives from everyone, spawn on anyone's rally, Sonic the Hedgehog sprint for everyone and no insta-death after revive are all concepts to make the game more appealing to COD Kiddies and deviate from the original paradign of "combat realism"...

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54 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Revives from everyone, spawn on anyone's rally, Sonic the Hedgehog sprint for everyone and no insta-death after revive are all concepts to make the game more appealing to COD Kiddies and deviate from the original paradign of "combat realism"...

Reee!

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14 hours ago, Globul Potato said:

Ah, yes. the COD Kiddies. ad Hitlerum of Squad forums. Thats why we can't discuss things like normal people.

 

There is a very real fear of the community being taken over by people whose idea of enjoyable gameplay tends too much to COD kind of game.

 

Squad is it´s own thing. A way of seeing it is a middle point (not symmetrical) between fast unrealistic gameplay like COD, and Ultra realistic MIL-SIM like ARMA.

 

To sum it up. The most possibly realistic experience playable in a time span between 30 minutes and 2 hours. 

 

There are many greats ideas there that don´t fit that frame and are discarded.

 

That´s the way I see it.

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And thats how i see it too.

BUT

people tend to be too clingy to the old Project Reality ideas, which, dont get me wrong, were good, but they were good for their own times and BF2 engine limitations. Might not be so great anymore. Squad is not PR. It is its own thing that kind of inspires from it. the high downtime when things go tits up and the high reliance on squad leader competence makes the matches be either great or awfull, no "meh" in between, and at the early stages of getting to know the game, its not really dependant from you, just from being lucky to get into a good squad. That randomnes drives away a lot of people which could with time become good players, people to boost servers and well, sales.

 

Edited by Globul Potato

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1 hour ago, Globul Potato said:

the high downtime when things go tits up and the high reliance on squad leader competence makes the matches be either great or awfull, no "meh" in between, 

That is quite accurate and "realistic". 

 

I don´t remember who said "war is won by officers more tan soldiers and generals"

 

1 hour ago, Globul Potato said:

and at the early stages of getting to know the game, its not really dependant from you, just from being lucky to get into a good squad. 

Well. That also makes sense by itself. A new player in the game can´t expect to become a key player. There are 80+/- players around you. Not even good players determine the outcome in many games.

 

1 hour ago, Globul Potato said:

its not really dependant from you, just from being lucky to get into a good squad. That randomnes drives away a lot of people which could with time become good players, people to boost servers and well, sales.

1-I aing getting into bussiness in this one.

 

2- It´s funny that what you call randomness is what I call TEAMWORK. A good squad is made by it´s members. And no matter how noob you are in the game and how lost you are one can ALWAYS FOLLOR ORDERS. Untill u realice why they make sense.

 

Anyway...all this is a bit off topic.

 

Going back. YOu Will find many players discard ideas that even remotely sound like something that Will make the ame more like COD.

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6 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

There is a very real fear of the community being taken over by people whose idea of enjoyable gameplay tends too much to COD kind of game.

I really don’t think this fear is accurate, do you really think that the hard core mil-sim lovers will give up that easily, also why would someone want this game to be like cod? The gunplay is awful from thier standpoint. It’s the big bad “CoD kids” that are apperantly going to brutally murder this game. I just don’t see how this is a real thing

3 hours ago, Globul Potato said:

people tend to be too clingy to the old Project Reality ideas

Amen

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Project reality had over 10 years of development. Those devs spent 10 years fine tuning there game. I don't understand why squad has to try and reinvent the wheel. They sound start off with the game play of project reality, and evolve from there.

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19 minutes ago, Jiggerlube said:

Project reality had over 10 years of development. Those devs spent 10 years fine tuning there game. I don't understand why squad has to try and reinvent the wheel. They sound start off with the game play of project reality, and evolve from there.

If you want project reality then play it

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49 minutes ago, Thegreenzzz said:

If you want project reality then play it

I want the spiritual successor to PR. That's what I hoped I was buying when I backed there kick starter 

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