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Another way to deal with running speed in v13

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

There are still tactical decisions of course, but THERE IS NO NEED TO TAKE THOSE TACTICAL DECISIONS SERIOUSLY ANYMORE. IF a plan failed, try another one in 30 seconds, and that goes for the individual soldier and for the whole squad.

You’ve been able to repeat a plan over and over again “in 30 seconds” for a long time now. This isn’t a new sensation. While I agree that the run/stam changes in v13 are a bit much, to say that there is no longer serious value to tactics anymore because of it or the buddy rally or instadeath, etc is not true. By repeating a plan over and over, with v13’s newest features, you’re simply speeding up the demise of the teams whose squads are blindly throwing themselves at something, at the cost of many, many tickets. All v13 has done is speed up how quickly these sorts of assaults can end. There is still tremendous value and tremendous regard for tactical decisions among most of the Squad community I’ve seen, regardless of all the features we’ve complained about for over a month now.

Edited by TheRubbaPelican
Clarification

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3 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Speed is addictive. Some anticipated that making it faster for some weeks would make it imposible to go back to v12 speed. Because even people who had no problem with v12 speed, and people who thought that v13 was too much at first will now be "addicted" to it. SO i´m pretty sure that any poll held 3+ weeks after the Increase would be favourable to v13 speed, not because it´s better, just because now people would feel "cripled" if they run at v12 speed again. It´s a one way path.

 

 

On the other hand, I have to admit I don´t understand the "traverse a big map" argument. I´ve read it many times but I just don´t see the point. Big maps aren´t to be traversed on foot. We have transports for that. So Infantry speed should never be in the same topic of map sizes. Nor should one be an excuse for the other.

 

Finally, I do think speed has impacted the game Flow. In 2 ways.

 

1- I had only seldom seen people hopping and running when under fire. In v13 it´s more and more common. People are realizing (including me) that when under fire rush in "zig-zag" kind of style to hard cover is much more effective than hitting the dirt. And as people feel safer doing that, they simply move around the map in a much relaxed matter, because they know if nme opens op on them they can just run.

 

2- And this is the biggest. Combined with BUDDY RALLY and NO INSTA DEATH, this has affected game Flow a LOT! People feel safer, and if they die, they can be revived and try to crawl to cover or keep engaging, same thing, because my medic is next to me and he has lot´s of bandages!!!. And even if everything goes to hell. I can always spawn in any of the rallies around. 

 

Don´t take me wrong. Speed in v13 is the least of my worries. I could do with it, although it´s too fast. But the 3 of them together have changed the way this game is played. For good or bad, it´s changed.

There are still tactical decisions of course, but THERE IS NO NEED TO TAKE THOSE TACTICAL DECISIONS SERIOUSLY ANYMORE. IF a plan failed, try another one in 30 seconds, and that goes for the individual soldier and for the whole squad.

That's a nice summary of my thoughts, +1.

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9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

 to say that there is no longer serious value to tactics anymore because of it or the buddy rally or instadeath, etc is not true. 

I didn´t say that there was no serious value to tactics. I said there was no need to take tactical decisions seriously. There is a big difference. Let me ilustrte.

 

To say there are no serious tactical decisions means that the factor that affects the outcome of the game is not tactical, and it can be anything else, like skillful shooters.

 

On the other hand, not needing to take a tactical decisioin seriously means that you don´t need to commit to it. Simply because I can make a tactical change in 30 seconds. So tactics is still a decisive factor, but you can change them every 30 seconds.

For ex:  Instead of attacking from the north and committing to that idea for a cosiderable period of the game with considerable resources, I can just try from the north and then if that fails I can spawn at some other squads rally and try form the south.

 

Whereas in a les forgiving environment, a Squad would be presented with a tactical problema, asses the situation and resources, decid the best way to deal with it, and excecute. Comiting to it because you won´t know if it´s work or not after some time. Maybe the consequences of your actions are nor revealed until later. 

 

Just take Squad ONE LIFE EVENTS as an example. That is almost as unforgiving as it gets. There whatever tactical decisión you make you take it seriously because it´s basically the whole game there.

 

There is a HUGE difference and the wording is intentional and precise to what I wanted to say. So I may need to clarify.

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59 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

I didn´t say that there was no serious value to tactics. I said there was no need to take tactical decisions seriously. There is a big difference. Let me ilustrte.

 

To say there are no serious tactical decisions means that the factor that affects the outcome of the game is not tactical, and it can be anything else, like skillful shooters.

 

On the other hand, not needing to take a tactical decisioin seriously means that you don´t need to commit to it. Simply because I can make a tactical change in 30 seconds. So tactics is still a decisive factor, but you can change them every 30 seconds.

For ex:  Instead of attacking from the north and committing to that idea for a cosiderable period of the game with considerable resources, I can just try from the north and then if that fails I can spawn at some other squads rally and try form the south.

 

Whereas in a les forgiving environment, a Squad would be presented with a tactical problema, asses the situation and resources, decid the best way to deal with it, and excecute. Comiting to it because you won´t know if it´s work or not after some time. Maybe the consequences of your actions are nor revealed until later. 

 

Just take Squad ONE LIFE EVENTS as an example. That is almost as unforgiving as it gets. There whatever tactical decisión you make you take it seriously because it´s basically the whole game there.

 

There is a HUGE difference and the wording is intentional and precise to what I wanted to say. So I may need to clarify.

No need to clarify, that sentence was written incorrectly. I wanted to say “that people no longer value making tactical decisions...”

 

At any rate, your definition of not taking tactical decisions seriously has a few flaws. Not committing to a pre-designed plan is tactical decision-making. When making decisions, a good tactician prepares for what he sees and devises a million and one ways to change the plan if this happens or that happens. In Squad, combat is not (nor is it meant to be, as far as development has shown) at the platoon level like many One-Life events. This means that when “reinforcements” arrive, they can take a different approach than the squad which just got wiped. What you seem to be advocating in the above post is pure realism, not a game. While I agree that taking a little more time to make a decision would benefit us all, a “less forgiving system” that means every tactical mistake you make costs you the entire game is not going to be enjoyable with the way Squad is built (many, many limitations would have to be included to make it fun).

Second, you don’t actually address your original argument. While you quoted the introduction to my counter-argument, you either ignored or didn’t care to address my real claim: the level to which SLs take tactics seriously is not affected by v13 changes. Squads made approaches from different directions after being wiped all the time in v12, and v11, and v10, etc. All v13 has done is lessen the misery, preventing us from getting stuck with SLs that throw their squads into brick walls and expect them to come out on the other side of said wall.

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9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

 In Squad, combat is not (nor is it meant to be, as far as development has shown) at the platoon level like many One-Life events. This means that when “reinforcements” arrive, they can take a different approach than the squad which just got wiped. What you seem to be advocating in the above post is pure realism, not a game. 

Let me say that you have well laid arguments and it´s a pleasure discussing this with you in this way.

 

Now let´s see. This first point is what makes people not need to take a decision seriously. The fact that the same squad, the same player is now going to be plan A, and try, run, die, and spawn again somewhere else, and be plan B. He is going to be his own reinforcement. Because it´s a game a people spawn back in it. 

 

And I´m not saying it has to be pure realism (I like that and there are other games or ONE LIFE EVENTS for that), but there is a long way before a one life event, and that is v12 in that aspect. 

 

I repeat I´m not advocating for a PURE REALISM GAME. I just use it to put things in perspective and show how things can move a bit towards that, without necessarily becoming that. Without further examples, in my opinion, v12 was more tactically realistic than v13.

 

9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

 While I agree that taking a little more time to make a decision would benefit us all, a “less forgiving system” that means every tactical mistake you make costs you the entire game is not going to be enjoyable with the way Squad is built (many, many limitations would have to be included to make it fun).

A "less forgiving system" doesn´t mean a "completely unforgiving system". Again, I didn´t say ONE LIFE is the kind of game I´m suggesting (that already exists), just v12 without Buddy rally, a bit slower, and with insta death, was "less forgiving". That made people care much for for every move they made, without making it a life or death/ win or lose at every corner. Not for the individual soldier, not for the SLs. 

 

9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

Second, you don’t actually address your original argument. While you quoted the introduction to my counter-argument, you either ignored or didn’t care to address my real claim: the level to which SLs take tactics seriously is not affected by v13 changes. Squads made approaches from different directions after being wiped all the time in v12, and v11, and v10, etc.

Now all this is basically adressing my original argument. I don´t see Why you say I´m not talking about it.

 

Everything I´m saying is how v13 (3 specific mechanics) impacted the game at the tactical level. Good or bad. Well that´s up to each player. 

 

As an Sl, first time I played v13 I felt tempted to order my whole squad to type in RESPAWN so we could spawn at some other SLs rally to defend a flag for which we didn´t have a HAB. That is a HUGE impact. After 2 weeks, people already realized that´s a valid tactic, and I´ve been ordered to do it. Because it was a GOOD IDEA!.

 

In v12 you needed a prudent team that built a hab near capped flags in case things go wrong and you had to get back to ir.

vs

In v13 people are more wreckless in every aspect and just know that there will be some place to spawn because there are so many chances now with Buddy rally.

 

In v12 you needed some quick thinking Sls that were communicating to organise the logistics to build in secret an offensive flag to push the next flag as son as you capp the previous one. That took skill to opérate behind lines, finds ways of approach, and conduct logistics and communication in a semi organized way.

vs

In v13 it´s enough with one squad moving towards the next cap and dropping a rally. No need to communicate, people in the previous cap just die trying to sweep remaining opposition, and respawn in some other squads rally.

 

9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

All v13 has done is lessen the misery, preventing us from getting stuck with SLs that throw their squads into brick walls and expect them to come out on the other side of said wall.

And then we get to it. So correct me if I´m wrong, but the logic I see behind your argument is that v13 fixed it for people (SLs) who didn´t know how to properly and competitively play v12.

 

It´s like setting the basket lower, so shorter people can play basketball better.

 

Because if you had an SL that as you say, kept thowing you into brick walls, then he didn´t know how to play the game.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

Let me say that you have well laid arguments and it´s a pleasure discussing this with you in this way.

 

Same goes for you.

14 hours ago, Nightingale87 said:

And then we get to it. So correct me if I´m wrong, but the logic I see behind your argument is that v13 fixed it for people (SLs) who didn´t know how to properly and competitively play v12.

 

It´s like setting the basket lower, so shorter people can play basketball better.

 

Because if you had an SL that as you say, kept thowing you into brick walls, then he didn´t know how to play the game.

What I believe is that v13 features have not created the tactical environment you describe, but a lack of experience and the ability to respawn in general has. I simply see v13’s features as a method of getting the inexperienced SLs to burn through so many tickets so quickly that the amount of time you have to suffer through their inability is minimal. I might very well be wrong on this, but I haven’t seen any real difference in the tactical approach people take. Perhaps it’s community-based or because of when I play and who I play with?

Edited by TheRubbaPelican
Autocorrect thinks it knows better than I do. It doesn’t.

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ive had way more close games since a13

 

i think increased run speed is more forgiving of failure and that it is good for the game.

 

steamroll is dull

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4 hours ago, suds said:

ive had way more close games since a13

 

i think increased run speed is more forgiving of failure and that it is good for the game.

 

steamroll is dull

Yeah, I evolved my opinion on it. Since its highly unlikely that sprint speed will ever be tied to encumbrance I'm perfectly fine with just leaving it alone and making it permanent. Same with Buddy Rally, its made the game less dull and boring by opening up opportunities to get back into the fight quicker.

 

That said, Buddy Rallies have basically deprecated HAB's at this point and FOB's are now pretty much exclusively repurposed to ammo crate hosts because highly visible HAB's are now a liability and not a necessity anymore to project power forward. It's almost like the game has come full circle back to spawning on singular FOB's.

 

 

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9 hours ago, TheRubbaPelican said:

Same goes for you.

What I believe is that v13 features have not created the tactical environment you describe, but a lack of experience and the ability to respawn in general has. I simply see v13’s features as a method of getting the inexperienced SLs to burn through so many tickets so quickly that the amount of time you have to suffer through their inability is minimal. I might very well be wrong on this, but I haven’t seen any real difference in the tactical approach people take. Perhaps it’s community-based or because of when I play and who’s so play with?

I think in our case our opinión on the matter is so different because we play in very different servers with very different Sls.

 

I play in Europe and I think you play in American servers. That at least means we dont play in the same servers. Ill be following your arguments mate.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 4:25 AM, Nightingale87 said:

Speed is addictive. Some anticipated that making it faster for some weeks would make it imposible to go back to v12 speed. Because even people who had no problem with v12 speed, and people who thought that v13 was too much at first will now be "addicted" to it. SO i´m pretty sure that any poll held 3+ weeks after the Increase would be favourable to v13 speed, not because it´s better, just because now people would feel "cripled" if they run at v12 speed again. It´s a one way path.

 

 

On the other hand, I have to admit I don´t understand the "traverse a big map" argument. I´ve read it many times but I just don´t see the point. Big maps aren´t to be traversed on foot. We have transports for that. So Infantry speed should never be in the same topic of map sizes. Nor should one be an excuse for the other.

 

Finally, I do think speed has impacted the game Flow. In 2 ways.

 

1- I had only seldom seen people hopping and running when under fire. In v13 it´s more and more common. People are realizing (including me) that when under fire rush in "zig-zag" kind of style to hard cover is much more effective than hitting the dirt. And as people feel safer doing that, they simply move around the map in a much relaxed matter, because they know if nme opens op on them they can just run.

 

2- And this is the biggest. Combined with BUDDY RALLY and NO INSTA DEATH, this has affected game Flow a LOT! People feel safer, and if they die, they can be revived and try to crawl to cover or keep engaging, same thing, because my medic is next to me and he has lot´s of bandages!!!. And even if everything goes to hell. I can always spawn in any of the rallies around. 

 

Don´t take me wrong. Speed in v13 is the least of my worries. I could do with it, although it´s too fast. But the 3 of them together have changed the way this game is played. For good or bad, it´s changed.

There are still tactical decisions of course, but THERE IS NO NEED TO TAKE THOSE TACTICAL DECISIONS SERIOUSLY ANYMORE. IF a plan failed, try another one in 30 seconds, and that goes for the individual soldier and for the whole squad.

As I mentioned in my post, the comment about traversing larger maps on foot is because I've yet to see any dedicated transport operations running in this game. Usually each squad grabs a vehicle, runs it to location X and either dumps it or it gets blown up when they encounter the enemy. Instead of any other assistance, things just proceed on foot for the remainder of the game. This has happened in every match I've played so far. 


I've yet to see people abuse the buddy rally system in the way you describe or many others thought would happen. Many times the squads I run with still place their own rallies and are seldom ever piggy-backing or respawning just to utilize the buddy rally. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've yet to see it on the servers I've played.

 

Bunny hopping and zig-zagging has been a thing in FPS games as long as they've been around. If you've seldom seen hoppers, well good for you but it's been an abused "tactic" as long as a game allows endless bunny-hopping. I can agree that I've seen it a bit more since v13.

About the only point I can wholeheartedly agree with you on is the lack of instant-death now. They really need to revert to the previous system because as long as there's a medic and bandages, folks will just keep getting revived and charging without penalty. 

Edited by MeAWarChild

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4 hours ago, MeAWarChild said:

Bunny hopping and zig-zagging has been a thing in FPS games as long as they've been around. If you've seldom seen hoppers, well good for you but it's been an abused "tactic" as long as a game allows endless bunny-hopping. I can agree that I've seen it a bit more since v13.

True "Bunny Hopping" involves being able to discharge your weapon whilst being in the air. Squad has always had this feature disabled as far as I can remember. As soon as your virtual feet leave the ground your weapon is disabled afaik.

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