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ScatteredSkulls

Marksman Changes.

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The marksman Class is in a pretty sorry state right now. The class holds a lot of potential for point defense and area denial roles but is hampered by a lack of rangefinding ability (as of Alpha 13) and a severe lack of bipods which would be huge in helping steady scope sway for engagements out as far as 400 meters. Luckly for us every NATO marksmans rifle in the game is not modeled correctly as issued. The American M110 SASS needs it's Leupold Mk 4 3.5-10 variable optic, Harris bipod, and suppressor. The British L129A1 Needs a Trijicon RMR mounted on top of the correct existing ACOG, and a Harris bipod under the barrel similar to the M110. I've linked 2 Small Arms Solutions videos for reference, they are produced and hosted by Chris Bartocci who is a fairly well respected firearms author and former Colt employee who specializes in AR family firearms (AR15, AR10, and the SR25 which both of these rifles are based off of). These changes to the rifles could provide an effective buff to the combat capability of the class and (with the addition of laser rangefinders) would bring the marksman class up to the standard of every other class in the game.

 

 

Edited by ScatteredSkulls
Removed irrelevant information to (hopefully) keep the thread on topic.

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I would have to agree very strongly on you opinion the game maker people fin to add the ranger thingy... If they had been add that in duh game then homies aint be b!***in over me pickin sniper instead of the HAT dude.

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Judging from your second line;

Quote

I've been kicked from squads about a half dozen times for picking marksman rather than HAT and I think that's a damn shame

 

You're not being kicked for PICKING marksman, but for REFUSING to change after your SL asks to to switch to a role he needs to fill like a HAT, while taking up the spot that is needed for someone else to fill the role.

 

Play Marksman on low armor maps or when the other roles are filled (Medic and LAT) and you won't be kicked.

 

This is typical Marksman behavior, bouncing in a squad and straight up going Marksman not wanting to change and then being surprised you get kicked.

 

 

Edited by oTec

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19 minutes ago, oTec said:

Judging from your second line;

 

You're not being kicked for PICKING marksman, but for REFUSING to change after your SL asks to to switch to a role he needs to fill like a HAT, while taking up the spot that is needed for someone else to fill the role.

 

Play Marksman on low armor maps or when the other roles are filled (Medic and LAT) and you won't be kicked.

 

This is typical Marksman behavior, bouncing in a squad and straight up going Marksman not wanting to change and then being surprised you get kicked.

 

 

No I have came in spawned as marksman (on Logar of all maps) and been told "HAHA get that sniper shit outta here" and insta-kicked leaving me with an AK with 2 mags and a knife. I have no problem with switching off if someone asks, the problem is when it's so bad that people act like they're allergic to the class (which also may be a reflection of the demeanor of the SLs themselves). Your reply also doesn't really address the meat of the issue which is that marksman is under-performing and SLs don't want them on their team on any map. 

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44 minutes ago, oTec said:

You're not being kicked for PICKING marksman, but for REFUSING to change after your SL asks to to switch to a role he needs to fill like a HAT, while taking up the spot that is needed for someone else to fill the role.

Thinking back on it 3 of the times that i'm thinking of the marksman class was half the equation. Those times were disputes with SLs from 1 particular clan that treats all of their squad members like dirt but my point still stands. An under-performing asset still needs to be fixed.

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34 minutes ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

No I have came in spawned as marksman (on Logar of all maps)

--->

8 minutes ago, El Pube said:

Just try to ask to the SL for the kit you would like.

 

Pube gets it.

 

I've seen some people do very well with Marksman and some being absolute trash. It's not the class under preforming, it's the man playing it.

 

I got the same with mgs, i cannot play mg for the life of it while some of my clan mates are killing machines with it.

Not the class fault, my own fault.

 

The reason that most SL's rather not have it, is because the whole class has turned into a meme due to people playing it and being lone wolves/bad at it.

The class itself can't help that.

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1 hour ago, oTec said:

Judging from your second line;

 

You're not being kicked for PICKING marksman, but for REFUSING to change after your SL asks to to switch to a role he needs to fill like a HAT, while taking up the spot that is needed for someone else to fill the role.

 

Play Marksman on low armor maps or when the other roles are filled (Medic and LAT) and you won't be kicked.

 

This is typical Marksman behavior, bouncing in a squad and straight up going Marksman not wanting to change and then being surprised you get kicked.

 

 

+1

 

1 hour ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

No I have came in spawned as marksman (on Logar of all maps) and been told "HAHA get that sniper shit outta here" and insta-kicked leaving me with an AK with 2 mags and a knife. I have no problem with switching off if someone asks, the problem is when it's so bad that people act like they're allergic to the class (which also may be a reflection of the demeanor of the SLs themselves). Your reply also doesn't really address the meat of the issue which is that marksman is under-performing and SLs don't want them on their team on any map. 

Seems like you have brought up 3 different issues. And you seem to think that changing one will change the others.

 

1- Marksman is underpower.

2- Some Sls are salty/authoritary/too strict.

3- People not liking marksman role.

 

Well.

Number 1.... Not the role, but the player. Someone already told u that.

Number 2... Some of them are. Most of them arent.

Number 3... Not really.

 

They´ve already given you some very good advice. 

 

You join  a squad. You say "hi guys". "what kit do you need?" or "can I take the marsman?". Voilá! You´re an active member of the squad. You may not get the marksman. But there may be a reason for that.

 

And the most BASIC reason is that...

 

Marksman excells at picking up enemy infantry from range. When enemy isn´t an immediate threat. 

A hat combined with a rifleman ammo bag. (Specially if there´s a lat in the squad too) makes the squad a pretty nasty threat to enemy armour that comes close to it. Not only would that squad be more durable because it can defend against armour that would otherwise run you over, but it can potentially get many more tickets from the enemy team by destroying vehicles and leave the enemy without valuable assets while they wait for them to respawn.

 

Knowing this, taking a marksman over a HAT/LAT rifleman ammo bag combo is irresponsible. And if the SL allows that in a heavy armor map, then he´s underperforming a bit in my humble opinion.

 

There are other reasons, but these should suffice.

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1 hour ago, oTec said:

--->

 

Pube gets it.

 

I've seen some people do very well with Marksman and some being absolute trash. It's not the class under preforming, it's the man playing it.

 

I got the same with mgs, i cannot play mg for the life of it while some of my clan mates are killing machines with it.

Not the class fault, my own fault.

 

The reason that most SL's rather not have it, is because the whole class has turned into a meme due to people playing it and being lone wolves/bad at it.

The class itself can't help that.

I do agree that most people that play marksman tend to use it as a slightly more complex version of a rifleman with an optic which always ends horribly. I think the correct way to fix that problem is to give people the tools (and therefore the incentive) to play the class in the way it can be best utilized. The best example of this is the British L86 marksman class. That class is coveted by all because it's an actually effective marksman class with almost everything that a marksman needs. It has, a decently magnified optic with BDC so your sight picture isn't disrupted with very long range shooting, a bipod to counter the crazy 5 MOA scope sway that all guns in this game tend to have in Squad, a pair of binoculars to give you a boost of magnification to make up for the SUSAT's relatively anemic zoom, and a full auto switch to help you deal with targets at closer range. Despite the L86 being in 5.56 (which might as well be light artillery at 600 meters) and only having a 4X optic I can manage to rack up a sizable number of kills from 300+ meters like it's nothing.

Edited by ScatteredSkulls

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11 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

+1

 

Seems like you have brought up 3 different issues. And you seem to think that changing one will change the others.

I brought up 2 of those issues and one of those absolutely can fix the other. SLs being picky was not a point I want to fix it's just an observation that was made by another person.

14 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

They´ve already given you some very good advice. 

 

You join  a squad. You say "hi guys". "what kit do you need?" or "can I take the marsman?". Voilá! You´re an active member of the squad. You may not get the marksman. But there may be a reason for that.

 

And the most BASIC reason is that...

 

Marksman excells at picking up enemy infantry from range. When enemy isn´t an immediate threat. 

A hat combined with a rifleman ammo bag. (Specially if there´s a lat in the squad too) makes the squad a pretty nasty threat to enemy armour that comes close to it. Not only would that squad be more durable because it can defend against armour that would otherwise run you over, but it can potentially get many more tickets from the enemy team by destroying vehicles and leave the enemy without valuable assets while they wait for them to respawn.

 

Knowing this, taking a marksman over a HAT/LAT rifleman ammo bag combo is irresponsible. And if the SL allows that in a heavy armor map, then he´s underperforming a bit in my humble opinion.

 

There are other reasons, but these should suffice.

This entire section of that post is frankly useless to me and all of the advice that was given was not needed because these are very basic concepts that some one with 3 hours of experience in the game could understand. 

The point I am making with this post is that the .308 and 7.62x54R marksman classes as of now have not a single reason to be utilized on the squad level because of how strong LMGs, SAWs, and HATs are in comparison. I want a reason to tell someone to go marksman, rather than the 30 reasons to tell them to get off marksman.

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People replying to this are completely skating over the original point of this post. Can I have a bipod and variable zoom on my M110 please? This has literally been all I've cared about this entire time and everyone has picked around everything but that.

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11 minutes ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

People replying to this are completely skating over the original point of this post. Can I have a bipod and variable zoom on my M110 please? This has literally been all I've cared about this entire time and everyone has picked around everything but that.

Ok understood.

 

Now. If you go and read your original post you can easily see Why people misinterpret your post. Maybe not a coincidence we all did.

 

20 minutes ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

 The point I am making with this post is that the .308 and 7.62x54R marksman classes as of now have not a single reason to be utilized on the squad level because of how strong LMGs, SAWs, and HATs are in comparison. I want a reason to tell someone to go marksman, rather than the 30 reasons to tell them to get off marksman.

Now that´s much clearer. And the answer that comes to my mind is maybe there arent many reasons to take a marksman over any of those other kits.

 

Maybe because of the game modes and maps and the moment of combat Squad is trying to recreate.

 

A marksman basically gives the squad some more firepower and the ability to engage from a longer range. That´s it. Less proficient at CQB than even the medic, no extra ammo, no AT capability. 

 

It isn´t even a sniper and appearently there will never be a Sniper class in Squad. But from my experience in PR the best snipers where sniper spotter teams working within a mortar squad. That was the epitome of teamwork. 

 

So as of now, I might be wrong but the best options I see for  marskman right now is as part of a mortar or logistics team, or a lonewolf in an insurgency kind of environment.

 

The only times I play marksman is when all the other kits are taken, and I realice that wo be effective for my squad I need to play in a very specific way, on some very specific maps. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Nightingale87 said:

Maybe because of the game modes and maps and the moment of combat Squad is trying to recreate.

 

A marksman basically gives the squad some more firepower and the ability to engage from a longer range. That´s it. Less proficient at CQB than even the medic, no extra ammo, no AT capability. 

A classes capability in certain aspects and lack thereof in other aspects determines a lot of things. Knowing this and keeping in mind the characteristics of the current marksman class and the current "meta" as a whole it seems like the marksman's kit is failing to deliver a good effect on target for what it's designed for. It's goal is to put repeatable accurate fire at long range to provide fire support to an infantry section. And as of right now the SAW and LMG classes demolish the marksman classes at doing those things. My proposed equalizer in this situation is to add a bipod and fully flesh out the optics on the existing rifles so that they can more effectively provide that fire in the same way the other fire support classes do. 

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24 minutes ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

A classes capability in certain aspects and lack thereof in other aspects determines a lot of things. Knowing this and keeping in mind the characteristics of the current marksman class and the current "meta" as a whole it seems like the marksman's kit is failing to deliver a good effect on target for what it's designed for. It's goal is to put repeatable accurate fire at long range to provide fire support to an infantry section. And as of right now the SAW and LMG classes demolish the marksman classes at doing those things. My proposed equalizer in this situation is to add a bipod and fully flesh out the optics on the existing rifles so that they can more effectively provide that fire in the same way the other fire support classes do. 

 

MG's need to deployed to be able to provide good long range fire, a marksman doesn't.

It's though currently finding a good underground for your bipod.

 

They also lack bino's for longer range target acquisition.

 

MG's also don't fare well past close range combat while being on the move.

 

Give marksman a bipod and they'll have all the advantages of deployed fire + being able to be mobile and be effective at most ranges without any special effort.

Edited by oTec

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36 minutes ago, oTec said:

 

MG's need to deployed to be able to provide good long range fire, a marksman doesn't.

It's though currently finding a good underground for your bipod.

 

They also lack bino's for longer range target acquisition.

 

MG's also don't fare well past close range combat while being on the move.

A machine gunner in Squad is not going to typically engage in long range fire accurately at all because by the time you start shooting at ranges that a marksman would engage you're accuracy has gone out the window and you're just guiding the pretty light show over the enemies in hopes one of the bullets hits them. Despite this if you shove a M240B into a "marksman" role and have them position and engage from the same ranges that a marksman should be more effective at the M240B will wipe the floor with the marksman rifle every time. Supression mechanics are so strong, bipods are so effective, and the volume of fire is so big that Ivan over in the corner with the SVD is still trying to wait for his stamina to regen and his scope to stop swaying so that he can get his first ranging shot out. 

Edited by ScatteredSkulls

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36 minutes ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

 Despite this if you shove a M240B into a "marksman" role and have them position and engage from the same ranges that a marksman should be more effective at the M240B will wipe the floor with the marksman rifle every time. Supression mechanics are so strong, bipods are so effective, and the volume of fire is so big that Ivan over in the corner with the SVD is still trying to wait for his stamina to regen and his scope to stop swaying so that he can get his first ranging shot out. 

yes. m40B zeroed in at 300m will wipe any DMR at long range any day. Bipod negates scope sway and majority of recoil while tracer fire makes for easy adjustments. DMR kit is underpowered without stronger optics. The truth is despite knowing the ins and outs of the marksmen role, as an SL, I would still rather have some other fire support role like AR or Grenadier as the DMR just really doesn't fulfill it's intended niche role that well. I really don't know how some people can argue a redundant point like '' only a good player can make the kit work ''. In irony, a good player can make any kit work. even an underpowered kit.

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1 hour ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

A machine gunner in Squad is not going to typically engage in long range fire accurately at all because by the time you start shooting at ranges that a marksman would engage you're accuracy has gone out the window and you're just guiding the pretty light show over the enemies in hopes one of the bullets hits them. Despite this if you shove a M240B into a "marksman" role and have them position and engage from the same ranges that a marksman should be more effective at the M240B will wipe the floor with the marksman rifle every time. Supression mechanics are so strong, bipods are so effective, and the volume of fire is so big that Ivan over in the corner with the SVD is still trying to wait for his stamina to regen and his scope to stop swaying so that he can get his first ranging shot out. 

 

1 hour ago, Supreme Chairman said:

yes. m40B zeroed in at 300m will wipe any DMR at long range any day. Bipod negates scope sway and majority of recoil while tracer fire makes for easy adjustments. DMR kit is underpowered without stronger optics. The truth is despite knowing the ins and outs of the marksmen role, as an SL, I would still rather have some other fire support role like AR or Grenadier as the DMR just really doesn't fulfill it's intended niche role that well. I really don't know how some people can argue a redundant point like '' only a good player can make the kit work ''. In irony, a good player can make any kit work. even an underpowered kit.

 

@ScatteredSkulls It won't have the same effect. A mg will be obvious and easily taken out. And as you say, accuracy degrades of distance. By the time the mg gets good fire on it, Ivan has run off and found a new position. (Unless you zip him instantly.)  All considering we're talking about long range fire.

 

@Supreme Chairman Assuming you see him first, range it correctly and find a good position for your bipod. Then volume of fire will give you the edge, wich is what mg's are made for. Idk if you'll kill him though, unless he's running out in the open. Mg fire spreads alot.

Edited by oTec

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I feel like the squad player base is almost scared of a powerful marksman, it might be the fear of those “dirty casuals” or that calling someone a CoD play is an insult

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5 hours ago, oTec said:

It won't have the same effect. A mg will be obvious and easily taken out. And as you say, accuracy degrades of distance. By the time the mg gets good fire on it, Ivan has run off and found a new position. (Unless you zip him instantly.)  All considering we're talking about long range fire.

The same will happen to a marksman dawg, that's why you always shoot and scoot. 90% of the time if you are firing within a few hundred meters you will be found within at least 1 magazine of consistent aimed fire. Someone will watch bullet impacts, find concealment, and pop you in the head because your weapon is loud and you obviously have direct LOS if you're shooting at them at all.

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9 hours ago, ScatteredSkulls said:

A classes capability in certain aspects and lack thereof in other aspects determines a lot of things. Knowing this and keeping in mind the characteristics of the current marksman class and the current "meta" as a whole it seems like the marksman's kit is failing to deliver a good effect on target for what it's designed for. It's goal is to put repeatable accurate fire at long range to provide fire support to an infantry section. And as of right now the SAW and LMG classes demolish the marksman classes at doing those things. My proposed equalizer in this situation is to add a bipod and fully flesh out the optics on the existing rifles so that they can more effectively provide that fire in the same way the other fire support classes do. 

I agree.

 

The thing is that in my view, this happens not because the DRM is underpowred in the game, or it´s not as powerful as an AR in the game, but because I think it´s like that in real life. In the combat terms that Squad is trying to emulate, the AR is in general, a more effective weapon.

 

So I don´t think it´s a problema with the game, just that in this specific scenario, DMR is what it is. No more, and no less.

 

I do think that it should have the bipod and maybe better optics.

 

But still, it makes sense that the AR "demolishes" the marksman in that aspect. Marksman is more accurate in the single shot, and harder to detect due to lack of tracers. The rest goes for the lead spitter that has been the Queen of the battlefield for over a century.

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1 minute ago, Nightingale87 said:

I agree.

 

The thing is that in my view, this happens not because the DRM is underpowred in the game, or it´s not as powerful as an AR in the game, but because I think it´s like that in real life. In the combat terms that Squad is trying to emulate, the AR is in general, a more effective weapon.

 

So I don´t think it´s a problema with the game, just that in this specific scenario, DMR is what it is. No more, and no less.

 

I do think that it should have the bipod and maybe better optics.

 

But still, it makes sense that the AR "demolishes" the marksman in that aspect. Marksman is more accurate in the single shot, and harder to detect due to lack of tracers. The rest goes for the lead spitter that has been the Queen of the battlefield for over a century.

Tbh I think my definition of underpowered is the same as as the opinion you're describing here. Yes, ARs and LMGs are going to be more powerful. That's why I agree it should be no problem at all to add more kit to the class to try to bring it closer to the high bar that the AR and LMG classes set.

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I agree 100% . Ever since the marksman class appeared i've asked myself why  it  doesn't have a bipod. 

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one of the brit marksman classes has a bipod. I prefer the one without because I don't mess about trying to deploy it. I can shoot from more concealed and sneaky areas.

  • Marksman should be shooting and moving. Concealment is his tool. You can take on a squad by playing clever, not deploying. Keep harassing and play the long game. Use your teammates and guide them to ensure a squad wipe. Explore without firing, be the scout. A bipod is far from essential for this class.
  • MG is all about area control. Hiding and moving is not the way to play it. Once people start shooting back accurately you have to win or move. You take on a squad by choosing the right moment to open up. You have to take them out fast, before shoot back. If they are far away you are playing for time to help your teammates.

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7 hours ago, suds said:

one of the brit marksman classes has a bipod. I prefer the one without because I don't mess about trying to deploy it. I can shoot from more concealed and sneaky areas.

  • Marksman should be shooting and moving. Concealment is his tool. You can take on a squad by playing clever, not deploying. Keep harassing and play the long game. Use your teammates and guide them to ensure a squad wipe. Explore without firing, be the scout. A bipod is far from essential for this class.
  • MG is all about area control. Hiding and moving is not the way to play it. Once people start shooting back accurately you have to win or move. You take on a squad by choosing the right moment to open up. You have to take them out fast, before shoot back. If they are far away you are playing for time to help your teammates.

1. Deploying a bipod is a choice. You can have a bipod and just not deploy it if you don't need it.

2. I have made it very clear that shoot & scoot is a good tactic for marksman to use, however the marksman having the choice of supported or unsupported fire for the few shot's he's going to make before moving again is nothing but a positive.

3. Shoot and scoot tactics are even more necessary for the machine gunner than the marksman because of how exposed they are.

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