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I want to give this topic a bit of a bump because it's something I feel strongly about.

While a respectable case has been made for better optics and suppressors, my primary interest is to continue pushing for marksman rifles to have bipods.
This is something that has been suggested numerous times, yet seems to fall on deaf ears due to fears it will somehow make marksman overpowered or will lead to an increase in lone-wolf sniper play. 

In addressing the former, squad designated marksmen are meant to be a formidable asset on the battlefield. A well-placed and squared away marksman can be critical to the success or failure of helping their squad (or team) in neutralizing enemy infantry. While the automatic riflemen/machine gunners are revered for providing moderately accurate and consistent sustained fire, a marksman's purpose is simply to provide extraordinarily accurate fire on demand. The marksman can provide either a lower level of sustained fire or simply be used to precisely eliminate particular enemy combatants.

As for the latter argument of increasing lone-wolf sniper play, the marksman class tends to already suffer from this problem so whatever increase there might be won't be significant.

 

The marksman class simply needs a bipod in order to be able to provide on-demand precision fire, especially given the fact that zoom optics are becoming more prevalent in the game. Given that, there currently isn't much that separates the marksman class from other classes minus a small advantage given by their enhanced zoom from their scopes and the ability to change zero to more accurately engage targets at distance. Since they are expected to help enhance the effective combat range of their squad and team, a bipod becomes necessary to provide stability in order to provide the precision fire expected from the role. 

 

While it is currently possible to make precise shots with the marksman rifle at distance, it can become difficult if you don't get everything lined up within the brief window of breath control afforded to you. A bipod would eliminate this variable and allow the marksman to more successfully fulfill its role in the squad. Otherwise, why even have the class?

 

 

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On 4/21/2019 at 5:03 AM, Supreme Chairman said:

I think a buff to the DMR/ Sniper scopes ,for the marksmen role, is quite necessary. It's niche is supposed to be long range precision fire but (what I believe to be) the greatest deficiency holding the marksmen role back is the actual magnification levels of the scope. In reality, the M110 paired with the GI Leupold scope has an effective range of 731m. In game however, you'd be quite skilled or lucky to hit an enemy past 300m since the total pixels visible on the target could probably be counted on three hands. You throw stamina management and moving targets into the mix and hit percentage drops even lower. From my experience, anything except the most experienced of marksmen usually should be swapped out for something either fills a necessity role ( eg AT) or a more niche role (grenadier). I believe a buff to the magnification levels of the marksmen rifle scopes are in order to flesh out it's viability as one of the specialty classes and highlight it's niche as a long range precision fire role.

 

If you cant hit a target beyond 300m w the 10x then you need to practice more. You should be able to hit a stationary target at 400m with a 4x as a marksman. If its hard to line up the target, lower the sensitivity, with the sense too high the movements are too big so you cannot line up the sight with the pixels that are the target.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

 

If you cant hit a target beyond 300m w the 10x then you need to practice more. You should be able to hit a stationary target at 400m with a 4x as a marksman. If its hard to line up the target, lower the sensitivity, with the sense too high the movements are too big so you cannot line up the sight with the pixels that are the target.

 Sure but realistically speaking we should get bipods.

Edited by maze2

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19 hours ago, maze2 said:

 Sure but realistically speaking we should get bipods.

Your opinion is of course as valid as mine on this subject but I dont agree. First of all only 2 of 5 factions have a marksman rifle equipped with bipods irl, The SVD doesnt have a bipod, so it will be unbalanced if one side gets a 10x scope and a bipod while the other have a 4x and no bipod.

 

And there is also very few situations where you really need the bipod. The L86 rifle has a bipod and tbh it isnt really that useful except when firing full auto. Its hard to find a good place for your bipod that also gives you some cover and concealment. It is imo better to not use the bipod and have more freedom of movement instead. As a marksman you will be more efficient that way. It is more important to be able to spot and aim quickly, You often have only a few seconds to shoot and the bipod restricts your movement too much in such cases.

 

Not that it really matter if there are a bipod or not on the gun, I can just choose not to use it but the problem is that the marksman will most likely lose something else to keep the balance and there isnt really anything i want to give up for a bipod. And I also dont want to see US marksman with a bipod at Talil or Kohat 800-1000m away with a bipod emptying their mags at me because the cover i have isnt rendered so they have a clear shot..

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I would give the Marksman a bipod and make it a special role just like the MMG right now, limiting it to 2 max. per team.

 

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3 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

Your opinion is of course as valid as mine on this subject but I dont agree. First of all only 2 of 5 factions have a marksman rifle equipped with bipods irl, The SVD doesnt have a bipod, so it will be unbalanced if one side gets a 10x scope and a bipod while the other have a 4x and no bipod.

 

And there is also very few situations where you really need the bipod. The L86 rifle has a bipod and tbh it isnt really that useful except when firing full auto. Its hard to find a good place for your bipod that also gives you some cover and concealment. It is imo better to not use the bipod and have more freedom of movement instead. As a marksman you will be more efficient that way. It is more important to be able to spot and aim quickly, You often have only a few seconds to shoot and the bipod restricts your movement too much in such cases.

 

Not that it really matter if there are a bipod or not on the gun, I can just choose not to use it but the problem is that the marksman will most likely lose something else to keep the balance and there isnt really anything i want to give up for a bipod. And I also dont want to see US marksman with a bipod at Talil or Kohat 800-1000m away with a bipod emptying their mags at me because the cover i have isnt rendered so they have a clear shot..

the SVDM that is replacing the SVD has a bipod and a rail system that allows for higher magnification scopes

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can agree on that scopes should have greater magnifier on it so its easier to engage targets 400+

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52 minutes ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

the SVDM that is replacing the SVD has a bipod and a rail system that allows for higher magnification scopes

True. But the SVDM modeled in squad isnt that SVDM:

SVDM_sniper_rifle_at_Military-technical_

 

36 minutes ago, Gully said:

can agree on that scopes should have greater magnifier on it so its easier to engage targets 400+

I personally prefer to have the ability to engage targets at close range. In my opinion it is better to have a ~4x scope since you often run into enemies at <50 meters and then a 10x is hard to use. But its always a trade off, on some maps like Kohat the 10x is really sweet while on for ex Sumari its almost too much with even a 4x. In general I would say that a 4x offers the best compromise and its useful in pretty much all situations that you regularly face in the game. The SVD is the best Marksman rifle imo and it would be the perfect weapon if we could use the iron sights as well.

I guess that a scope with ability to adjust magnification could be a way to deal with the problem and give the Marksman a bit more edge over the other scoped rifles without making it OP.

 

 

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All the Marksman rifles in Squad are so ridiculously over the top nerfed it isn't even worth the trouble of picking the role. Honestly, the role is basically just a placeholder with a cool looking helmet. The SKS with an optic is actually a better marksman rifle imho.

 

 

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if you cant hit shots from 200+

go get better

a well placed marksman can wreck a whole squad

stop complaining about it being too op or too bad

 

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11 minutes ago, StonedAF said:

if you cant hit shots from 200+

go get better

a well placed marksman can wreck a whole squad

stop complaining about it being too op or too bad

 

So basically “git gud scrub” that helps the discussion so much

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58 minutes ago, StonedAF said:

if you cant hit shots from 200+

go get better

a well placed marksman can wreck a whole squad

stop complaining about it being too op or too bad

 

Lmfao! It's far from OP... All the Marksman rifles are super nerfed. Go into the SDK and look at all the values compared to the M4 with ACOG. I haven't looked for awhile, it may have changed however its not powerful like it should be. Just for starters there's zero body armor simulated in the game so technically any of these rifles should instagib in one shot.

 

Then no bipod, excessive sway and spread makes it hardly worth bothering with.

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11 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

True. But the SVDM modeled in squad isnt that SVDM:

SVDM_sniper_rifle_at_Military-technical_

 

I personally prefer to have the ability to engage targets at close range. In my opinion it is better to have a ~4x scope since you often run into enemies at <50 meters and then a 10x is hard to use. But its always a trade off, on some maps like Kohat the 10x is really sweet while on for ex Sumari its almost too much with even a 4x. In general I would say that a 4x offers the best compromise and its useful in pretty much all situations that you regularly face in the game. The SVD is the best Marksman rifle imo and it would be the perfect weapon if we could use the iron sights as well.

I guess that a scope with ability to adjust magnification could be a way to deal with the problem and give the Marksman a bit more edge over the other scoped rifles without making it OP.

 

 

Then they should just change the model? I don't really understand your point.

 

You're right that 4x is the most versatile magnification, which is why it's pretty much the standard amongst most modern armies. But we're not talking about the standard, we're talking about a specialised role that is built for long range combat. If you want to be effective within 50 metres then pick a role that is built for that. You liking the SVD doesn't make it a good DMR, it's objectively the worst at it's intended role. The way to deal with the problem is simple, a bipod for all conventional DMRs and higher magnification for the SVDM.

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The point was just to show that there are a difference between the gun we have and the real one called SVDM.

Based on my experience from the game you have to engage at close range from time to time as a marksman also. Unless you are lone wolfing you are going to encounter enemies at close range quite often, much more often than you have a chance to kill someone at 500+ meters. My record is 700 meters with a 4x but its rare to get the chance to shoot at those distances. I'm more that willing to sacrifice the 500+ shots for better short range capability if I have to choose because too often the enemy is rude enough to show up at close range.

The Marksman is btw an infantryman with ability to engage at longer range, it is not a sniper. You are supposed to follow your squad and provide cover for them. That means that you cannot choose when and where your engagements occur, you have to deal with the enemies that shows up regardless of how close they are. Thats why i prefer the SVD, it works for all situations that are regularly encountered in the game. It works at 50 and it works at 500 meters.

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20 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

The SKS with an optic is actually a better marksman rifle imho.

It's a great rifle. Much less recoil than the SVD which makes it far more useful.........it's kind of like getting the benefit of having a bipod.

 

Would be nice for marksman rifles if we could get switchable CQB/optic sights like a few games are now implementing. Logar valley is a particular map where the marksman class switches from being very useful when on the surrounding hillsides to a liability once you move into the cap points.

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4 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

The point was just to show that there are a difference between the gun we have and the real one called SVDM.

Based on my experience from the game you have to engage at close range from time to time as a marksman also. Unless you are lone wolfing you are going to encounter enemies at close range quite often, much more often than you have a chance to kill someone at 500+ meters. My record is 700 meters with a 4x but its rare to get the chance to shoot at those distances. I'm more that willing to sacrifice the 500+ shots for better short range capability if I have to choose because too often the enemy is rude enough to show up at close range.

The Marksman is btw an infantryman with ability to engage at longer range, it is not a sniper. You are supposed to follow your squad and provide cover for them. That means that you cannot choose when and where your engagements occur, you have to deal with the enemies that shows up regardless of how close they are. Thats why i prefer the SVD, it works for all situations that are regularly encountered in the game. It works at 50 and it works at 500 meters.

Yes I know there is a difference, I've played the game before the SVDM was even in the game. They should change it to bring it in line with the other DMRs.

 

If you prefer versatility to long range effectiveness, stop playing marksman. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about this.

 

Again, I have played the game, I know what the marksman is, but you seem like you don't. You're just describing a standard rifleman.

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I know very well how to play marksman, and a marksman is effectively a standard rifleman, but with another rifle:

From Wiki:
A "Squad Designated Marksman" (SDM) or a "Designated Marksman" (DM) should not be confused with a regular sniper. United States marksmen rarely operate individually. Snipers are often deployed for specific objectives in teams consisting of snipers and observers. The marksman, however, operates as a regular member within a unit where his skills are called upon whenever the need for accurate shooting arises in the normal course of operations. While snipers are intensively trained to master fieldcraft and camouflage, these skills are not required for marksmen. There are differences in role and training that affect doctrines and equipment. Snipers rely almost exclusively on more accurate but slower-firing bolt-action rifles,such as the M24, while a marksman can effectively use a faster-firing, but less accurate semi-automatic rifle, such as the M14. A sniper's intensive training, forward placement and surveillance duties make their role more strategic than that of a squad-level marksman. Thus, marksmen are often attached at the squad level while snipers are often attached at higher levels such as battalion. In short, an "SDM" or "DM" operates with a combat squad, while a regular sniper is deployed to gather information and eliminate specific targets.

I dont really understand what kind of long range shots you are trying to master in the game. If you want a sniper instead of a marksman then just say that. I can engage enemies out to 500 meters with a rifle like the SVD without too much trouble, and shots beyond that are very rare. on the other hand encounters at closer range are much more frequent and even as a marksman you have to deal with that or you will get killed.

The main reason i dislike the idea of bipods in combination with ~10x scopes is that it will make the game worse. Too many marksmen will run off to an elevated position 700-1000 meters away from the objective, set up their bipod and fires at anything they see until they hit.

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Those complaining about the viability of marksman in CQB are missing the niche of the role: long-range precision shooting. 

Now, acknowledging that there are times you might get in to a fire fight in tight spaces at times, there's always hip firing which works just fine. Not to mention, you have a pistol which I've used with significant success in this game. I'd argue the pistol has been a bit too effective at times, downing an enemy within 2-3 shots in non-vital areas. I surmise at some point the devs will work on secondary sights like are being used in the military actively (RMRs on ACOGs for example).

Also, freedom of movement doesn't matter as much because a marksman should generally set themselves up in such a way that their field of view allows them to cover a moderate area that they're responsible for. Plus it's not like it takes a whole lot of time in this game to get off a bipod and re-deploy it if you absolutely need to.

 

I've been in numerous situations so far during my short stint in this game where as a marksman I had the opportunity to lay waste to an enemy squad, yet because of the lack of a bipod and excessive weapon sway I could only knock out 1-2 before getting killed or having to disengage. This, despite having particularly clear shots on almost the entire enemy element but an inability to keep the weapon steady enough for rapid follow-up shots. 

 

In its current implementation, the marksman offers very little over the standard line rifleman with a 4x optic. It needs to be brought up to the true versatility of the squad designated marksman.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Pluto is a planet said:

The main reason i dislike the idea of bipods in combination with ~10x scopes is that it will make the game worse. Too many marksmen will run off to an elevated position 700-1000 meters away from the objective, set up their bipod and fires at anything they see until they hit.

 

The bad SDM who don't truly understand the purpose of the role (sticking close to and supporting their squad) already do this, so your argument is rather moot.

If it came to turning the marksman class in to a sniper with a bolt action just to get 10x and a bipod, so be it. Just limit the kit like has been done in PR. But they still have designated marksmen too and they get bipods.

I'm still not sold on the 10x scope for marksman because it's fairly easy to make out a human target at 700m in this game with the current offering. All I want is the ability to stabilize the weapon system so I can put down accurate longer range fire, which is what the role is intended for: Hanging back from a vantage point to provide overwatch to your squad as they move and support them with precise fire against the enemy.

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10 hours ago, Pluto is a planet said:

I know very well how to play marksman, and a marksman is effectively a standard rifleman, but with another rifle:

From Wiki:
A "Squad Designated Marksman" (SDM) or a "Designated Marksman" (DM) should not be confused with a regular sniper. United States marksmen rarely operate individually. Snipers are often deployed for specific objectives in teams consisting of snipers and observers. The marksman, however, operates as a regular member within a unit where his skills are called upon whenever the need for accurate shooting arises in the normal course of operations. While snipers are intensively trained to master fieldcraft and camouflage, these skills are not required for marksmen. There are differences in role and training that affect doctrines and equipment. Snipers rely almost exclusively on more accurate but slower-firing bolt-action rifles,such as the M24, while a marksman can effectively use a faster-firing, but less accurate semi-automatic rifle, such as the M14. A sniper's intensive training, forward placement and surveillance duties make their role more strategic than that of a squad-level marksman. Thus, marksmen are often attached at the squad level while snipers are often attached at higher levels such as battalion. In short, an "SDM" or "DM" operates with a combat squad, while a regular sniper is deployed to gather information and eliminate specific targets.

I dont really understand what kind of long range shots you are trying to master in the game. If you want a sniper instead of a marksman then just say that. I can engage enemies out to 500 meters with a rifle like the SVD without too much trouble, and shots beyond that are very rare. on the other hand encounters at closer range are much more frequent and even as a marksman you have to deal with that or you will get killed.

The main reason i dislike the idea of bipods in combination with ~10x scopes is that it will make the game worse. Too many marksmen will run off to an elevated position 700-1000 meters away from the objective, set up their bipod and fires at anything they see until they hit.

jfc it's like speaking to a brick wall.

I know the difference between a designated marksman and a sniper and I'm not suggesting marksman become snipers or play like them. The point of being in a squad is not to be combat effective in every single situation the squad might find itself in, the squad is meant to be effective as a whole because of the different roles and their strengths. The marksman kit should not be effective within 50 metres, it's not designed to be, it is not a rifleman with a different gun, it is a marksman. Different play styles is the point of different roles. If you are concerned about your CQB effectiveness, play a different role.

How people play the role should not be a consideration, it is the SLs duty to keep the other players in line and make sure they're playing in a productive way.

Your opinions are dogshit.

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14 hours ago, MeAWarChild said:

I've been in numerous situations so far during my short stint in this game where as a marksman I had the opportunity to lay waste to an enemy squad, yet because of the lack of a bipod and excessive weapon sway I could only knock out 1-2 before getting killed or having to disengage. This, despite having particularly clear shots on almost the entire enemy element but an inability to keep the weapon steady enough for rapid follow-up shots.

This ^ has been my experience of the marksman role while covering my squads flank while they cap or defend a cap. On many occasions I could have been more effective with the 4x scoped rifleman mainly due to the recoil. If dm isn't buffed in some way to strengthen the role in the way it should be played they might as well remove it.

Just a slight optic magnification over the scoped rifleman and a bipod to steady follow up shots when the situation allows is all it really needs to differentiate it without making it a lone wolf's weapon of choice.

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3 hours ago, Major Trouble said:

This ^ has been my experience of the marksman role while covering my squads flank while they cap or defend a cap. On many occasions I could have been more effective with the 4x scoped rifleman mainly due to the recoil. If dm isn't buffed in some way to strengthen the role in the way it should be played they might as well remove it.

Just a slight optic magnification over the scoped rifleman and a bipod to steady follow up shots when the situation allows is all it really needs to differentiate it without making it a lone wolf's weapon of choice.

 

Fighting off an entire squad on your own is maybe not what the marksman is intended for. I understand the issue and i have been in the situation more than once. Most of these encounters are < 200 meters so yes, a rifleman would probably deal with it more efficiently since its within their effective range.

We do have a rifle with bipod, the L86, and ive used it quite a lot. My experience is that for the marksman role it is better to not use the bipod since I can shoot faster and stay more concealed without the bipod. The bipod is more usefull when firing the gun in full auto like a light machine gun.

 

A bipod on a 4x scoped rifle will probably not unbalance anything, the L86 isnt OP in any way compared to other marksman rifles. So adding a bipod to such guns shouldn't be a problem. In combination with higher magnification, like the 10x however im afraid it would be a different matter. For balancing reasons I suspect that they dont want the marksman to have the ability to wipe out an entire squad and i can agree with that, even if it would be nice to be the guy that does the wiping.

 

The main advantages with the marksman class is imo the greater stopping power at longer range compared to the assault rifles and also the ability to set the range on the scope. The disadvantage is of course that its less able to deal with large number of enemies at shorter range...

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On 5/8/2019 at 6:17 AM, Pluto is a planet said:

 

Fighting off an entire squad on your own is maybe not what the marksman is intended for. I understand the issue and i have been in the situation more than once. Most of these encounters are < 200 meters so yes, a rifleman would probably deal with it more efficiently since its within their effective range.

We do have a rifle with bipod, the L86, and ive used it quite a lot. My experience is that for the marksman role it is better to not use the bipod since I can shoot faster and stay more concealed without the bipod. The bipod is more usefull when firing the gun in full auto like a light machine gun.

 

A bipod on a 4x scoped rifle will probably not unbalance anything, the L86 isnt OP in any way compared to other marksman rifles. So adding a bipod to such guns shouldn't be a problem. In combination with higher magnification, like the 10x however im afraid it would be a different matter. For balancing reasons I suspect that they dont want the marksman to have the ability to wipe out an entire squad and i can agree with that, even if it would be nice to be the guy that does the wiping.

 

The main advantages with the marksman class is imo the greater stopping power at longer range compared to the assault rifles and also the ability to set the range on the scope. The disadvantage is of course that its less able to deal with large number of enemies at shorter range...

You really just aren't getting it. At all.

If you think the marksman can shoot faster, with the same accuracy without a bipod as with you're either just being disingenious or are extraordinarily naive. 

You can't seem to hop off of this notion of CQB effectiveness, what with your direct mention of it and referring to the ability to be more mobile without the bipod.

That.
Is.
Not.
What.
Marksman.
Is.
For.
Break.

The marksman is there to provide CONSISTENT, HIGHLY ACCURATE FIRE at distances exceeding that of the traditional effective range of the average squad rifleman. A bipod is crucial to the CONSISTENT, HIGHLY ACCURATE FIRE because it provides weapon stability. It's not about reducing recoil, it's about weapon stabilization. If you can't keep the weapon stable enough to ensure your round is going where you want it to go (where you're currently aiming), you're not going to be able to provide CONSISTENT, HIGHLY ACCURATE FIRE.

I'm all for leaving the current marksman scope as is, because the current magnification is sufficient enough to make out enemies to at least 700m. But they need a bipod to help provide CONSISTENT, HIGHLY ACCURATE FIRE

Granted I don't think anybody wants any particular role to be designed around wiping out an entire enemy squad single-handedly. I just don't want to have to be continually fighting breath control and ridiculous weapon sway (which is amplified by higher magnification scopes) to the point that I can't place two shots in the same spot with any level of consistency. I'm not chasing sub-MOA accuracy in this game, as much as I'd love to achieve that level of accuracy in a game (most shooting games aren't designed around that sort of accuracy). I just want to be able to hit within the same region as the last shot I placed without having to worry my soldier's about to have to breath again and throw the shot I had lined up.

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Posted (edited)

Why is their even a marskman class left? i want to play with svd but if you consider the bipod and bigger mag on the rpk with same scope magnification there's just no need to take the marskman role and that's a shame. all these people bitching about overpowering this, that.

 

That's exactly what a sniper does, pinning down a squad all by himself, and the squad actually needing their brain to do something about it.

How boring a movie would be if the marskman get's a penalty at everything he is supposed to do!

Edited by Pharanaiton

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