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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Thegreenzzz said:

Would bolt actions be considered?

 

most definitely considered. the thing is..typical infantry columns or squads don't have a dedicated sniper for engagements past the range of what their prescribed weapon doctrine says...at that point, it's usually up to crew served weapons to start nailing people past what the small arms can't hit. so where would a bolt action sniper fit in? their usually chambered in .300 win or .338 lp mag so would it be a one shot kill? 

 

 i would love to see it but squad dev's can be iffy about good ideas if it doesn't fit their vision of what the game should be

 

edit: worst part about it is that i'm almost arguing against having a dedicated sniper in the game even though that's completely opposite of my interests.

Edited by Supreme Chairman

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22 hours ago, Thegreenzzz said:

Would bolt actions be considered?

They're obviously talking about IRL shooting but the same principals apply in Squad.

 

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Posted (edited)

As far as taking the range finding ability away from other players I think this was a good thing. Eventually you will learn to range by eye. Plus you can see where your rounds are landing with the dirt kicked up. If you can't range properly by eye or map then don't be a marksman, it's that simple. Hell I set my range on Iron sights and do pretty good so why can't you with an optic? Get better, don't complain. While I agree that maybe the DMR class could be improved by having a range finding binocular or other ranging tool you have to think of gameplay. Both DMR's in squad are semi-auto so you can adjust for bullet drop quickly with a follow up shot. Unless they start introducing dedicated bolt action sniper roles, I would leave it as is. This is an action game with tactical combat. Not, I'll sit here for 3 days pissing my pants waiting for a high value target to show up. The most I would do with the DMR class is give him a harris bipod, maybe.

Edited by tmpwhore

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30 minutes ago, tmpwhore said:

As far as taking the range finding ability away from other players I think this was a good thing. Eventually you will learn to range by eye. Plus you can see where your rounds are landing with the dirt kicked up. If you can't range properly by eye or map then don't be a marksman, it's that simple. Hell I set my range on Iron sights and do pretty good so why can't you with an optic? Get better, don't complain.

"git gud" responses are an absolute cancer to any discussion in any game forum.

 

31 minutes ago, tmpwhore said:

 Both DMR's in squad are semi-auto so you can adjust for bullet drop quickly with a follow up shot. Unless they start introducing dedicated bolt action sniper roles, I would leave it as is. This is an action game with tactical combat. Not, I'll sit here for 3 days pissing my pants waiting for a high value target to show up. The most I would do with the DMR class is give him a harris bipod, maybe.

I could also live with just bipods, but it would do you some good to read through the rest of the thread where I've already made some good responses to these points at length.

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I think a buff to the DMR/ Sniper scopes ,for the marksmen role, is quite necessary. It's niche is supposed to be long range precision fire but (what I believe to be) the greatest deficiency holding the marksmen role back is the actual magnification levels of the scope. In reality, the M110 paired with the GI Leupold scope has an effective range of 731m. In game however, you'd be quite skilled or lucky to hit an enemy past 300m since the total pixels visible on the target could probably be counted on three hands. You throw stamina management and moving targets into the mix and hit percentage drops even lower. From my experience, anything except the most experienced of marksmen usually should be swapped out for something either fills a necessity role ( eg AT) or a more niche role (grenadier). I believe a buff to the magnification levels of the marksmen rifle scopes are in order to flesh out it's viability as one of the specialty classes and highlight it's niche as a long range precision fire role.

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the problem is, when a shit box rolls up on you, wtf are you going to do with a marksman. with the new ammo mechanics now too. wtf are you going to do? shoot into the barrel of a T 72 like its saving private ryan? vehicles cost the enemy tons of tickets and if they arent dealt with it can cost you the game. 

maybe they can put rifleman, LMG and sniper as the second tier roles for all factions? who knows 

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From my browsing, my understanding of why the marksman class overall doesn't have bipods is due to "balance", which I think is a ridiculous cop-out. 

As the OP has stated, the intended role of the Squad Designated Marksman is to be able to provide on-demand accurate shot placements against enemy positions. While the Automatic Rifleman and Machine Gunner roles can provide some level of accurate fire, their overall use on the battlefield is intended to be suppression. If they get a few kills because the target of suppression stuck his head out or wandered into a bullet, that's just gravy on top.

The marksman is supposed to be able to place a shot accurately on a target to effectively eliminate that target. It's sniper-lite if you will. The difference being a SDM operates in a squad environment to provide a level of accurate target engagement over distances the average rifleman might not be as effective, and a sniper usually operates with a spotter in a lower-profile capacity.

Right now the only advantage a marksman offers over a rifleman with a zoomed optic like an ACOG is that they have a slightly higher magnification on their weapon. There ain't much I can do with a marksman that I can't already accomplish using an ACOG in this game. That should not be the case, and as has been stated virtually eliminates the utility of SDM in this game. A bipod to help ensure consistency of accurate fire is necessary.

Example: Last night I had a good position to watch over a particular area of a compound that was being fought over by my team and the enemy team. I happened to catch an entire squad pushing up my area of responsibility who were as of yet oblivious to my position. I took notice of the medic, knocked him out. From there, the squad scrambles to cover but given my position choice they were not covered from my angle and I had the opportunity to continue engaging the squad. Due to the scope sway from not having a bipod, I could not continue to accurately engage their squad element and reduce their combat efficiency before they regrouped, figured my position and had me eliminated. 

That should not have happened in the manner it did. I should have had the tools necessary (in this case something as simple as a bipod or the ability to rest my weapon on a surface) to more effectively engage the enemy element to reduce their threat potential to my teammates.

For what it's worth I'm sort of apathetic on changing the scopes for the marksmen kits , except maybe the British "lite" marksman that actually has a bipod. Giving more magnification than current could turn the marksman into more of a lone-wolf long-range sniper that is simply pecking at targets across the map rather than the intended purpose of sticking with a squad to enhance lethality. 

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I just don't see why the bipod is needed. I never miss it, and I have 3 confirmed kills over 600m (one with M4+Acog), and plenty of kills over 400m. My favorite thing in the game currently is to headshot bipodded MGs :D. And I generally prefer the AK74/M4/L86 because of the lower recoil while the stopping power is about the same, they only bleed quicker after a 7.62 round, and a 5.56 or 5.45 can usually kill with 2 hits, and the lower recoil allows for faster follow up shots. The sway is not an issue. If you have a tiny bit of stamina left, you can hold breath for long enough to hit/kill an enemy. The only reason why should be the marksman buffed, is because in v13 almost everyone gets an optic, so the marksman will be kind of useless. And a bipod and a higher magnification won't change that. 4x zoom is plenty for 400 meters, and most of the engagements happen within 200m anyways. Usually a 400m target doesn't know where you are, so I don't shoot, I wait or flank rather than giving away my position, especially because hitting a 400m+ moving target is will require more shots. 

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37 minutes ago, Font said:

I just don't see why the bipod is needed. I never miss it, and I have 3 confirmed kills over 600m (one with M4+Acog), and plenty of kills over 400m. My favorite thing in the game currently is to headshot bipodded MGs :D. And I generally prefer the AK74/M4/L86 because of the lower recoil while the stopping power is about the same, they only bleed quicker after a 7.62 round, and a 5.56 or 5.45 can usually kill with 2 hits, and the lower recoil allows for faster follow up shots. The sway is not an issue. If you have a tiny bit of stamina left, you can hold breath for long enough to hit/kill an enemy. The only reason why should be the marksman buffed, is because in v13 almost everyone gets an optic, so the marksman will be kind of useless. And a bipod and a higher magnification won't change that. 4x zoom is plenty for 400 meters, and most of the engagements happen within 200m anyways. Usually a 400m target doesn't know where you are, so I don't shoot, I wait or flank rather than giving away my position, especially because hitting a 400m+ moving target is will require more shots. 

The bipod becomes necessary when you’re engaging more than one active enemy at a time.

 

See my example I talked about. I had an enemy squad of at least 5 come through an area I was trying to lock down, and they were at about 280m. I popped the first guy, go to engage the rest and can’t do it effectively because my guy can’t keep the damn gun steady. While trying to keep the enemy locked down so my squad mates could step in, I get picked off because I couldn’t effectively engage the enemy. A bipod would’ve turned that situation around and I could’ve taken at least 3-4 out and diminished their ability to fight and likely have kept them in place or driven them off.

 

An effective, competent marksman should be absolutely lethal and feared by the enemy. Right now, a soldier with an ACOG is about as effective so most SDMs in this game aren’t a viable option compared to grenadier, AT, etc.

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3 hours ago, Font said:

I just don't see why the bipod is needed.

although I'm less supportive of the bipod as I am of the enhanced optics notion, a bipod would be a reasonable supplemental because SDM is supposed to deliver CONSISTENT accurate fire of which any MG with optics does better simply because of the bipod (and tracer rounds). M40B really justs kicks ass over what the marksmen should be doing because of the bipod alone (and that it's default ranged to 300m).

 

3 hours ago, Font said:

 I never miss it, and I have 3 confirmed kills over 600m (one with M4+Acog), and plenty of kills over 400m. My favorite thing in the game currently is to headshot bipodded MGs :D. And I generally prefer the AK74/M4/L86 because of the lower recoil while the stopping power is about the same, they only bleed quicker after a 7.62 round, and a 5.56 or 5.45 can usually kill with 2 hits, and the lower recoil allows for faster follow up shots. The sway is not an issue. If you have a tiny bit of stamina left, you can hold breath for long enough to hit/kill an enemy. 

in response to that

On 4/19/2019 at 12:49 AM, ScatteredSkulls said:

"git gud" responses are an absolute cancer to any discussion in any game forum.

just because good ol Font can hit shots over 600m with an ACOG does not mean the average player (including me) can. In fact, I usually don't even bother calling out people who make debunkable claims like scope sway doesn't matter or enhanced optics won't make the marksmen class more viable. Also, in reference to your irony,  there is literally no other way to buff the marksmen rifle other than making recoil more manageable or to enhance the zoom level. Quite literally none beside making the DMR a one-shot kill and I think everyone can agree this game is not call of duty. So if it's already as you say, marksmen class is just quite useless all across the board and no buffs whatsoever would make it any more competitive or viable.  The things you say irk me on a balancing basis.

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5 hours ago, Supreme Chairman said:

 

just because good ol Font can hit shots over 600m with an ACOG does not mean the average player (including me) can. In fact, I usually don't even bother calling out people who make debunkable claims like scope sway doesn't matter or enhanced optics won't make the marksmen class more viable. Also, in reference to your irony,  there is literally no other way to buff the marksmen rifle other than making recoil more manageable or to enhance the zoom level. Quite literally none beside making the DMR a one-shot kill and I think everyone can agree this game is not call of duty. So if it's already as you say, marksmen class is just quite useless all across the board and no buffs whatsoever would make it any more competitive or viable.  The things you say irk me on a balancing basis.

They can buff the marksman all they want. Higher magnification won't matter since most of the engagements are within 200m or 300m. Further then that not worth shooting, since you will probably miss anyways and its not worth giving away your position. Within 200-300m an M4/AK74/L86 gets the job done. Even if they buff the marskman, most SLs will still prefer AT/Grenadier over the marksman, especially in v13 when everyone gets an optic. I never said git gut, I just said that the weapon is capable of hitting long range shots as is. If you cant, well that is not the games fault, and even with a bipod you (me too) will miss a long range moving target, and pretty much every target is moving. 

As long as an other class gets the job done, a dedicated long range class for those few engagements will not worth the one fire support role. 

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The higher the magnification the more the scope sways (in theory) so it isn’t just a one or the other type thing, if you up the zoom you need a bipod

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Posted (edited)

Well I'm saying "Git Gut"  biatch!! :-)

 

I think the best compromise of all the good suggestions here is let's try and put a bipod on there for one of the builds. v13.1, 14??? If that makes the marksmen more effective without being OP, ok well then great problem solved. If it's not good enough well then maybe add adjustable zoom levels for the scope, or even just a few zoom levels say like the vehicles static ones, just to give the marksman a bit of an edge. If that's too OP then we'll tone it down and just go back to giving them a bipod. I think a bipod is probably a very easily implemented feature without going too crazy. Let's try it and see how it goes.

Edited by tmpwhore

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brit squads have 2 marksmen, 1 with and 1 without bipod.

Try them and learn, as i have, that the one without is going to get you more kills.

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19 minutes ago, suds said:

brit squads have 2 marksmen, 1 with and 1 without bipod.

Try them and learn, as i have, that the one without is going to get you more kills.

How?

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how to learn?

or

how to join the british team and choose one of the 2 marksman classes?

or

other...?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, suds said:

brit squads have 2 marksmen, 1 with and 1 without bipod.

Try them and learn, as i have, that the one without is going to get you more kills.

You're pitching this to a tough crowd dawg. The most infantry kills I have ever gotten in one game was with the L86 marksman class on Kamdesh. As I said before that class is a powerhouse and damn near everybody in a British section rushes for it.

Edited by ScatteredSkulls

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Long range (>300m) engagements in Squad rarely happen due to the maps and the amount of cover available. There are exception and that's where the DM can shine. At the typical engagement range (<300) DMs are no more effective than a scoped rifleman and usually worse due to the recoil. Personally I'd like to see all DM rifles get a bipod with significant increase in shooting stability (like the LMGs) to buff it over just taking the scoped rifleman instead especially as more optics are coming.

 

The most infantry kills (39) I have in one game was fulfilling a DM role but actually playing as scoped rifleman engaging the US at <200m as Irregular. It was invasion on Chora and we'd been pushed back to the last cap (Monolith) and I was holding the northern field mostly singlehandedly. It had good sightlines and I feel the only way I could of done better with a DM rifle would of been having a slightly better zoom but mainly have better follow up shot stability as it was a target rich environment.

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1 hour ago, Major Trouble said:

Long range (>300m) engagements in Squad rarely happen due to the maps and the amount of cover available. There are exception and that's where the DM can shine. At the typical engagement range (<300) DMs are no more effective than a scoped rifleman and usually worse due to the recoil. Personally I'd like to see all DM rifles get a bipod with significant increase in shooting stability (like the LMGs) to buff it over just taking the scoped rifleman instead especially as more optics are coming.

 

The most infantry kills (39) I have in one game was fulfilling a DM role but actually playing as scoped rifleman engaging the US at <200m as Irregular. It was invasion on Chora and we'd been pushed back to the last cap (Monolith) and I was holding the northern field mostly singlehandedly. It had good sightlines and I feel the only way I could of done better with a DM rifle would of been having a slightly better zoom but mainly have better follow up shot stability as it was a target rich environment.

Makes sense in my view.

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2 hours ago, Major Trouble said:

Long range (>300m) engagements in Squad rarely happen due to the maps and the amount of cover available. There are exception and that's where the DM can shine. At the typical engagement range (<300) DMs are no more effective than a scoped rifleman and usually worse due to the recoil. Personally I'd like to see all DM rifles get a bipod with significant increase in shooting stability (like the LMGs) to buff it over just taking the scoped rifleman instead especially as more optics are coming.

 

The most infantry kills (39) I have in one game was fulfilling a DM role but actually playing as scoped rifleman engaging the US at <200m as Irregular. It was invasion on Chora and we'd been pushed back to the last cap (Monolith) and I was holding the northern field mostly singlehandedly. It had good sightlines and I feel the only way I could of done better with a DM rifle would of been having a slightly better zoom but mainly have better follow up shot stability as it was a target rich environment.

 

1 hour ago, Nightingale87 said:

Makes sense in my view.

Quality input, I obviously also couldn't agree more. Also damn dude 39 kills? I gotta start playing more invasion.

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Posted (edited)

I think we are pretty much in agreement that the DMR's, at least on the NATO side, should have a bipod on them. To balance it, maybe we keep the zoom levels stay the same so as not to be OP. Since the marksmen scope has a BDC compensator on it(the range stadia marks or Mils for drops) the lack of a variable zoom shouldn't really be too much of a handicap and it keeps it fair. In regards to the soviet type equipment which has a fixed zoom and a smaller magazine. To give the edge to the better equiped NATO teams, they will have the bipod, but the soviet SVD doesn't and as far as I know is not normally issued with one. While I believe the OWI team tried to make the DMR's more even, the edge the SVD has is in the scope recticle. It has a range finder built in to the scope. So while the DMR on the NATO side would have a bipod, you have to be really good at ranging by eye. With the Soviet scope it gives you a range finder in the bottom left corner whereby you put the scope on a standing soldier and it will basically give you the range, which will increase first shot hits over the NATO scope. So it basically boils down to, better stability, or better range finding and first shot hit probability. Since they both have about the same number of ft/pds of muzzle energy, the smaller magazine of the SVD shouldn't be too much of a handicap especially if you're getting a higher first round hit probability if you're doing your job and ranging properly.

Edited by tmpwhore

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weapon resting

:)

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Posted (edited)

While weapon resting would be nice, it would kind of defeat the purpose of bipods. Unless the weapon resting mechanic was only applicable to assault rifles or other weapons that didn't have a bipod. I'm not against it at all, but we'd have to be a little careful on how it's implemented. I would definitely support it for any sort of rifle, but the AR's and MG's not so much. The AR's and MG's are not conducive to leaning on a window sill, or a rock. They are firing automatically so they are more likely to slip around with only one point of contact to steady the weapon. Also with GPMG's like the PKM or even worse the M240, you have this huge ass gas tube underneath the barrel. Not only would it be extremely unstable to fire resting on the gas tube. There would be a chance, however slight, that the pressure on the gas tube would jam up the gas piston, or worse actually bend the tube and stop the weapon for good, until repaired. If the resting mechanic is implemented, which I'm not against BTW,  I think that it only works on anything WITHOUT a bipod. While AR's like the RPK or even the M249 could theoretically still be rested(would still be jumping around a bit on automatic), for balancing and programing simplicity, they must also use the bipod.

 

The problem I see with weapon resting would be the nature of the terrain you are resting on. If you're flat out in a field lying prone, you can't rest the weapon as you have to keep the muzzle of the weapon off the ground to fire above it. However say you were on a little bit of a hill and there is enough of a rise to just rest it while being able to shoot above the ground. I'm just trying to think about it in a programming manner. I'm imagining that weapon resting would be hard to program unless every piece of the terrain had some sort of value attached to it. I'm not against it but I'm looking for the simplest solution, which is just adding a bipod to a DMR. I don't know about the Unreal engine, maybe it's no problem to implement resting I don't know. Maybe the developers can chime in.

Edited by tmpwhore

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13 minutes ago, tmpwhore said:

I think we are pretty much in agreement that the DMR's, at least on the NATO side, should have a bipod on them. To balance it, maybe we keep the zoom levels stay the same so as not to be OP. Since the marksmen scope has a BDC compensator on it(the range stadia marks or Mils for drops) the lack of a variable zoom shouldn't really be too much of a handicap and it keeps it fair in Regards to the soviet type equipment which has a fixed zoom and a smaller magazine. To give the edge to the better equiped NATO teams, they will have the bipod, but the soviet SVD doesn't and as far as I know is not normally issued with one. While I believe the OWI team tried to make the DMR's more even, the edge the SVD has is in the scope recticle. It has a range finder built in to the scope. So while the DMR on the NATO side would have a bipod, you have to be really good at ranging by eye. With the Soviet scope it gives you a range finder in the bottom left corner whereby you put the scope on a standing soldier and it will basically give you the range, which will increase first shot hits over the NATO scope.

Compromise is fair, I still don't see how variables would be so OP that it would imbalance the teams on the section level though. The Russians have optics and frag rounds on their LAT and HAT classes, Refleks ATGMs in their T-72s, and an automatic rifleman class that can pretty effectively double as a normal rifleman class if needed. They have their advantages and the NATO teams will have their advantages, this is the nature of the game.

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25 minutes ago, suds said:

search

weapon resting

:)

Adding that would prove my point even better than adding bipods to the one class I mentioned, but aight.

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