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3 minutes ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

lmao you're bizarrely obsessed with this

the reason it isn't in is because it's shit for gameplay, it's that simple

i disagree with you, its that simple

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Azor, if your benchmark for all military shooter games is based on somehow perfectly replicating real life then we'd have to have a level where all the players would be cleaning latrines and repainting all the rocks white around the base for two hours.

 

Literally nothing in any of these games has any basis in reality. Platoon level engagements between super powers, materializing out of pillow forts and recovering instantly from gunshot wounds are all ersatz dimensions. Just enjoy the game for what it is and don't sweat the lack of simulated body armor is my suggestion for you.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Azor, if your benchmark for all military shooter games is based on somehow perfectly replicating real life then we'd have to have a level where all the players would be cleaning latrines and repainting all the rocks white around the base for two hours.

 

Literally nothing in any of these games has any basis in reality. Platoon level engagements between super powers, materializing out of pillow forts and recovering instantly from gunshot wounds are all ersatz dimensions. Just enjoy the game for what it is and don't sweat the lack of simulated body armor is my suggestion for you.

 

 

dude i put my time and money into this game because it is appealing to me, just because i want a feature that plenty of other games have made work just fine i suddenly want to clean latrines? im tired of you guys and your baseless attacks against me for having an opinion, i want to see things properly represented(compare it to the people asking for bolt action snipers and pilotable CAS) it literally makes no sense why you wouldnt represent body armor in modern warfare, they literally made a WW2 based Squad game for people who want to fight in those settings. there is hardly any difference between Squad and PS without it tbh, im still waiting for someone to respond to my question about what makes these 2 games different without body armor. yet all i get are cheeky responses telling me to go play another game or to just shut up because im "obsessed with body armor". im a logical person in nature, and its highly illogical to just ignore a key facet of modern combat

Edited by Azor Ahype

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

it's shit for gameplay, it's that simple

I'll try to offer some reasoned thought on why it should NOT be in, but for me the above sums it up.

 

As I see it the difference between PS and squad being the period in history along with matching weapons / vehicles and tactics. I know this makes it sound as though body amour should be included in the modern setting, but if body amour was added for the conventional factors in a US / GB / Russia match it really would be bullet sponge heaven, probably more true to how it would IRL but it in a game it would take several hours to finish a small firefight never mind take several capture points, with two medics no player need ever die unless head shoted. Conventional against insurgents, totally unbalanced as the insurgents would not be given their 'body amour' which IRL is the civilian population around them.

 

Going back to the OP, do you work in a  'security role' and have to provide your own body armour? Or is there sufficient hazard in area of the US where you are that civilians regularly need to wear it  :( 

Edited by scoobi
typos

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7 minutes ago, scoobi said:

I'll try to offer some reasoned thought on why it should NOT be in, but for me the above sums it up.

 

As I see it the difference between PS and squad being the period in history along with matching weapons / vehicles and tactics. I know this makes it sound as though body amour should be included in the modern setting, but if body amour was added for the conventional factors in a US / GB / Russia match it really would be bullet sponge heaven, probably more true to how it would IRL but it in a game it would take several hours to finish a small firefight never mind take several capture points, with two medics no player need ever die unless head shoted. Conventional against insurgents, totally unbalanced as the insurgents would not be given their 'body amour' which IRL is the civilian population around them.

 

Going back to the OP, do you work in a  'security role' and have to provide your own body armour? Or is there sufficient hazard in area of the US where you are that civilians regularly need to wear it  :( 

i cant really go into detail about why i own body armor but lets just say its "political in nature"(the mod came in and deleted some comments when i brought it up before so ill leave it there) and honestly imo they could implement body armor in a way that isnt 100% realistic that still lends to enhance the immersion of the gameplay(things like shrapnel or low caliber rounds to the torso could have reduced dmg with no bleed for example) im not even opposed to them making you transition stances and even move slower with armor. imo you should become "dead" instantly from a simple headshot, medics should only be able to revive incapacitated soldiers, not dead ones(more stuff in general should kill you outright imo, it would make insurgents much more lethal with explosives) currently the way the game is balanced is bandage spam to pick up the guy who just got his head caved in by a tank shell, and i dont really think that promotes the kind of intimidation these vehicles/weapons should bring to the battle. to sum it up i dont think the way firefights play out in this game are balanced at all, there is no need to focus on shot placement because small caliber rounds are basically better for killing people than freaking mortars

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2 hours ago, Azor Ahype said:

dude i put my time and money into this game because it is appealing to me, just because i want a feature that plenty of other games have made work just fine i suddenly want to clean latrines? im tired of you guys and your baseless attacks against me for having an opinion, i want to see things properly represented(compare it to the people asking for bolt action snipers and pilotable CAS) it literally makes no sense why you wouldnt represent body armor in modern warfare, they literally made a WW2 based Squad game for people who want to fight in those settings. there is hardly any difference between Squad and PS without it tbh, im still waiting for someone to respond to my question about what makes these 2 games different without body armor. yet all i get are cheeky responses telling me to go play another game or to just shut up because im "obsessed with body armor". im a logical person in nature, and its highly illogical to just ignore a key facet of modern combat

"You Guys" & "Baseless Attacks"...

 

Please you probably shouldn't pigeonhole me as I only focused on the Squad related portion of your topic and my observations about a subject that has been covered ad nauseam here.

 

To clarify, Sniper and Fixed Wing Pilot roles were mentioned in the Kickstarter so founders have some justification to make a fuss I guess however I don't recall any mention of body armor.

 

Perhaps you should consider that posting personal pictures of your gear to validate a certain paradigm in the game and then alluding to certain topics that are verboten here, then furthermore going passive aggressive probably isn't such a good idea to get your point across.

 

 

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Squad: combined arms simulator, walking simulator, and rock painting simulator I like it!

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Posted (edited)

He kind of does have a point, but so does the rest and is unnecesarily  angry about it. Its all about balance. The simplest way to utilise the "armor factor" is reducing damage to area covered by it. -50% on the chest and -25% (becouse helmets are weaker) to the head. I don't know though how Squad hitboxes work. is the helmet and the face considered one thing? Is upper torso-lower torso diferentiated? If the whole head is one thing simply don't touch it,  same with torso- scale the numbers down. I pulled them out of thin air anyway.

 

That way Soldiers survive a bit more, but are no bullet sponges. Is it realistic? No. but its close enough to make a difference. If you wan't anything more than that then it would require building an entire system of penetration, plate fragility, internal shock damage, medical rework... yeah, there's no way squad does that, and i doubt any game actually can unless its built around it from the very beginning. WWIII apparently has that and it apparently works, so does tarkov, so, it can be done. More or less. But then we come back to the main problem.

 

One side has it, other does not- In the state that the squad is currently in- No. Don't touch it. It would break the game. If we wan't to see body armor represented then there would be a need for many assymetrical tweaks. Things that are not hard to do, but basically rework the whole side gameplay feel. What chages? Here they are (Self advertising like a shameless wh*re) 

If the devs managed to do at least part of it, or something simmiliar then yes, I'd love to see some, even the simplest form of body armor, it would go along perfectly with the theme- faster, squishier and more maneuvreable insurgents vs more durable but restricted conventional forces. And it would work in AAS just fine as well, just needs a different mindset when playing ins. They wouldn't be outright weaker, they would just be different.

Edited by Globul Potato

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Body armour would be cool to test out. Could see it being an interesting gameplay element to mix up combat, similar to the vehicle armour disparity currently in game. Different move speeds for infantry might be difficult to implement with all the animations involved, but increased stamina costs for armour would be easy enough to do a quick test. 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think there's need to increase stamina costs, its already at the right place for such an encumbered soldier and it mostly just iritates rather than being useful or realistic. If anything, there should be a slight decrease for insurgents. There's another thing though- soldiers are trained. All those 5am PT runs have to do something, CO's wouldn't do it to them just to piss them off, right? right?

militia, insurgents, all various freedom fighters- more often than not they're much weaker. To simply put it- i wouldn't touch the stamina and leave it as it is. eventually lower the stamina cost for irregulars if you really want to balance the armor out, but i'm not super convinced about that.

Edited by Globul Potato

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

"You Guys" & "Baseless Attacks"...

 

Please you probably shouldn't pigeonhole me as I only focused on the Squad related portion of your topic and my observations about a subject that has been covered ad nauseam here.

 

To clarify, Sniper and Fixed Wing Pilot roles were mentioned in the Kickstarter so founders have some justification to make a fuss I guess however I don't recall any mention of body armor.

 

Perhaps you should consider that posting personal pictures of your gear to validate a certain paradigm in the game and then alluding to certain topics that are verboten here, then furthermore going passive aggressive probably isn't such a good idea to get your point across.

 

 

you're right i shouldnt pigeonhole you. but when you get the same half baked reply just telling you to stop talking about something i truly believe has a place in the game, or when someone just tells me to go play a different game if i dont like it. lets be honest, thats not productive conversation at all. i wasnt trying to get political before, that dude just kept insisting i justify why i owned these things so i said screw it and just told him how it is. i also get what you mean about the kickstarter, im not saying they promised body armor but people talking about those things are dismissed just as much as me, if not more actually

Edited by Azor Ahype

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As it goes, I did concede that it's an idea with some interesting facets. I just don't feel it's a priority and would throw up some big issues. I'm not against it as a concept, for asymmetircal game modes that work that way - though I fully recognise it's simply the case that compromises, sometimes huge, need to be made to make a commercially viable or fun product. I'm not saying it's not possible. Just that it would be a big bit of work for something that many wouldn't consider major gains - certainyl compared to other development areas. Apologies if my curiosity about your personal body armour offended you; I assure you it was just that. I didn't realise it was going to be such a sensitive or emotive issue.

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34 minutes ago, TheRed said:

As it goes, I did concede that it's an idea with some interesting facets. I just don't feel it's a priority and would throw up some big issues. I'm not against it as a concept, for asymmetircal game modes that work that way - though I fully recognise it's simply the case that compromises, sometimes huge, need to be made to make a commercially viable or fun product. I'm not saying it's not possible. Just that it would be a big bit of work for something that many wouldn't consider major gains - certainyl compared to other development areas. Apologies if my curiosity about your personal body armour offended you; I assure you it was just that. I didn't realise it was going to be such a sensitive or emotive issue.

its all good dude

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i'm for body armour as long as ....

 

going out on a limb here 'cause only one game i've ever played that had body armour (that was obvious/option in loadout) was JointOps and it worked very well due to it having weight, within an encumbrance system that included all weapons, ammo and items/accesssories.

 

(IMO): The simplest way to introduce Body Armour into ANY game - tie it to encumbrance. give it weight, make it affect you as well as providing you a bullet-sponge. - you might be packing BA but you'll run a bit slower, so .... 

 

OC we'd need an encumbrance system first ... and loadout modification/selection.

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Requires:

  • additional hitbox detail for every character using armour
  • loss of consciousness/winding effect
  • disabling of limbs/motion
  • more detailed bleeding 
  • far more detail and resource for bullet hits for the network. eg if I have to hit centre mass I can just take pot shots. If I need to hit specific body regions to stop evey soldier charging then I am going to need a lot more gun control and hit detection than we currently get.

I'm glad I live in a country which keeps me safe from political violence. 

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Here are my two cents about "Reworking/Adding Body Armor into the game" from someone who used military (OTV of mid 2000s) and treated people with gun wounds.

 

First all wearing body armor does not guarantee that you "wont be bleeding after being shot by the pistol" given that the body armor (highly likely ceramic) is destroyed, nor does it guarantee that you "wont be bleeding" if you got shot where those plates are not located at. 

Here is good rated +18 plus example. - Disclaimer not for fainthearted and by far (hopefully I wont get banned for this video, but it shows really good example that armor alone suddenly does not make you invincible, even though it also proves the point that this is how INS faction should be played). https://www.funker530.com/gopro-close-quarters-ambush-sc1/

This is video of Unarmored, Kurdish  rebels (PKK) ambushing Turkish soldiers in full battle rattle with what definitely looks like equivalent of Level IV (at least level III) body armor. This in my opinion shows the point that In the way Squad developers got it (kind of) right.  Body armor can either stop "Many Bullets" just like in real life, or it can fail after taking one shot (US Army's Mil Spec demands that all plates should be able to take at least 3 shots), but overall the video you linked above, the guy only got shot once and in controlled environment, than multiple times, where bullets can do some crazy things.

 

In real life firefights (where squad is "Realistic) due to lead to air ratio (accurate superiority at the shortest period of time), the best body armor is "Not being shot at all." If you are being shot at your body armor, then things already gone horribly bad. That's the reality of combat and the body armor is designed to simply give you the fighting chance. It will eventually fail. And no: Metal plates are not actually better than ceramic plates either. They tend to bulge and spall (worse) in comparison to ceramic plates. That's why US military uses ceramic plates in comparison to Russian hybrids or full steel plates like AR500. I am not even talking about if the bullet entered a tad above the area covered by the plate at pectoral or abdominal area, then exited somewhere like armpit or even worse (I knew one soldier who died that way. - AK47 bullet entered above his SAPI plate, went through his shoulder, bounced off from the rear plate and hit aorta). This is my other point, to show how tricky it is to implement the body armor in the game. In real life, if someone who got shot into unarmored area, even with a pistol depending on his/her adrenaline level can either fight for a while, bleeding out at uncertain rate (realistically in Squad sometimes you don't even know you are bleeding to death), or drop due to the shock of pain.

 

Thus developers kind of got it right. The current model of being killed in two to three shots (sometimes even 4 or 5) kind the best "Medium" between realism and arcade bullet sponging. Introducing body armor akin to ARMA 3 style is extremely difficult into this game. Perhaps the best solution would be to introduce before such thing, is realistic effects of the body armor and adrenaline level in the game. 

 

For example: if there a lot of gun fire and explosions going on around within certain range, then the player's adrenaline bar will be slowly filled up, eventually entering what is called "Reptilian Mode" where the player being shot (depending on damage) will not have debilitating effects.

 

With adrenaline bars, also debilitating effects will have to be added into the game. For example being shot at the legs or lower torso will cause red screen (imitating grievous pain) and slow the player's movement akin to Counter - Strike. Surviving a shot to the head from a pistol or grenade, or long range small caliber bullet should cause slight concussion akin the one felt when the tank in Squad fires near you. Being shot in upper body should cause severe accuracy debilitation, especially if hit from the side. 

 

Overall to summarize: This is extremely complicated and I believe (as again repeating the mantra) Squad kind of got it right since in real life, body armor does not make you invincible especially if you got shot multiple times and no, one shot tests, even at point blank does not prove the point that the game suddenly should turn into "US and RF armies suddenly have more hit points."

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On 3/12/2019 at 12:39 AM, Caliell said:

Here are my two cents about "Reworking/Adding Body Armor into the game" from someone who used military (OTV of mid 2000s) and treated people with gun wounds.

 

First all wearing body armor does not guarantee that you "wont be bleeding after being shot by the pistol" given that the body armor (highly likely ceramic) is destroyed, nor does it guarantee that you "wont be bleeding" if you got shot where those plates are not located at. 

Here is good rated +18 plus example. - Disclaimer not for fainthearted and by far (hopefully I wont get banned for this video, but it shows really good example that armor alone suddenly does not make you invincible, even though it also proves the point that this is how INS faction should be played). https://www.funker530.com/gopro-close-quarters-ambush-sc1/

This is video of Unarmored, Kurdish  rebels (PKK) ambushing Turkish soldiers in full battle rattle with what definitely looks like equivalent of Level IV (at least level III) body armor. This in my opinion shows the point that In the way Squad developers got it (kind of) right.  Body armor can either stop "Many Bullets" just like in real life, or it can fail after taking one shot (US Army's Mil Spec demands that all plates should be able to take at least 3 shots), but overall the video you linked above, the guy only got shot once and in controlled environment, than multiple times, where bullets can do some crazy things.

 

In real life firefights (where squad is "Realistic) due to lead to air ratio (accurate superiority at the shortest period of time), the best body armor is "Not being shot at all." If you are being shot at your body armor, then things already gone horribly bad. That's the reality of combat and the body armor is designed to simply give you the fighting chance. It will eventually fail. And no: Metal plates are not actually better than ceramic plates either. They tend to bulge and spall (worse) in comparison to ceramic plates. That's why US military uses ceramic plates in comparison to Russian hybrids or full steel plates like AR500. I am not even talking about if the bullet entered a tad above the area covered by the plate at pectoral or abdominal area, then exited somewhere like armpit or even worse (I knew one soldier who died that way. - AK47 bullet entered above his SAPI plate, went through his shoulder, bounced off from the rear plate and hit aorta). This is my other point, to show how tricky it is to implement the body armor in the game. In real life, if someone who got shot into unarmored area, even with a pistol depending on his/her adrenaline level can either fight for a while, bleeding out at uncertain rate (realistically in Squad sometimes you don't even know you are bleeding to death), or drop due to the shock of pain.

 

Thus developers kind of got it right. The current model of being killed in two to three shots (sometimes even 4 or 5) kind the best "Medium" between realism and arcade bullet sponging. Introducing body armor akin to ARMA 3 style is extremely difficult into this game. Perhaps the best solution would be to introduce before such thing, is realistic effects of the body armor and adrenaline level in the game. 

 

For example: if there a lot of gun fire and explosions going on around within certain range, then the player's adrenaline bar will be slowly filled up, eventually entering what is called "Reptilian Mode" where the player being shot (depending on damage) will not have debilitating effects.

 

With adrenaline bars, also debilitating effects will have to be added into the game. For example being shot at the legs or lower torso will cause red screen (imitating grievous pain) and slow the player's movement akin to Counter - Strike. Surviving a shot to the head from a pistol or grenade, or long range small caliber bullet should cause slight concussion akin the one felt when the tank in Squad fires near you. Being shot in upper body should cause severe accuracy debilitation, especially if hit from the side. 

 

Overall to summarize: This is extremely complicated and I believe (as again repeating the mantra) Squad kind of got it right since in real life, body armor does not make you invincible especially if you got shot multiple times and no, one shot tests, even at point blank does not prove the point that the game suddenly should turn into "US and RF armies suddenly have more hit points."

not trying to discredit your opinion, but its pretty clear that in your link the guy got shot through the side of his torso, missing the plates completely(he wasnt even shot by a pistol so idk what your point about that was) also spalling prevents shrapnel from rounds bouncing into exposed areas of your body. my main issue with the games damage system is the fact that every time you get hit you bleed pretty much, when in reality body armor would totally prevent that from ever happening. im not talking about being invincible im well aware that body armor has weak points and stress limits, but currently as it stands .308 is actually inferior compared to 5.56 due to recoil. in reality a vest will easily stop a 5.56 NATO round and even .308 NATO, my suggestion is reduce the chest shot damage to conventional factions and remove the bleed from 5.56, while keeping the bleed for .308, this will still allow you to drop someone with 2 .308 rounds to the chest but maybe 3-4 to the chest with 5.56(also with no bleed effects) this would make CQC combat actually interesting where shot placement suddenly starts to matter, as it stands you can just shoot someone 2 times in the chest even with a pistol and pretty much guarantee a kill, to sum it up the damage model is too one sided, every weapon behaves pretty much the same in the end, which is stupid if you ask me

Edited by Azor Ahype

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I tought there was body armor already in the game. Everytime i click left mouse  putting a round inside somebody's hearth, my oponent just clicks left mouse two times back and i'm dead. I tought the puff of blood was reactive armor.

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i'll summarise.

 

2 types of damage, the type that makes you:

  • bleed. continued loss of health.
  • winded/hurting. no loss of health but loss of and low recovery of stamina. eg impact, explosion or collision.

Both should require some effort from the player or a medic to resolve or recover from:

  • Bleed, as is, apply a bandage
  • winded, sit still for a bit and have a cry, same time as bandage or if a medic is nearby they can give you a cuddle. Make recovery much longer if this recovery time is interrupted.

easy :)

 

Or just leave it as is and make crying sounds and thank medics for the cuddle in local chat. The difference is only some animations.

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