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I just don’t get it, people seem to regect ideas by saying “but muh immersion” your playing a video game, I’ve never once felt that I was really there fight in Iraq or Eastern Europe.

 

someone please explain 

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There are very immersive moments in Squad. When you have a good squad that communicates well with good radio discipline, other squad leaders that are willing to work together and you're in that perfect moment of combat where there is a target rich environment and everyone is shooting but no one is screaming bloody murder then its quite immersive. Likewise when you move into a defensive position, deploy your troops for imminent contact and its completely peaceful but everyone is slightly nervous. Those are the immersive moments that people love.

 

But mostly I'm with you. I don't play Squad to be immersed in combat, I play it to think and outsmart and outfight my enemy. That's where the joy comes for me personally. If I want to be immersed I'll read a book or play a good RPG. 

 

There is a level of suspension of disbelief, but to what level are you wanting to suspend it. That's what really matters. Yes, I'd prefer not to have icons all over my HUD and for communication and the mark one eyeball to provide most of the intel but it's still a videogame like you say. We get to respawn and unload a truck full of supplies in a single instance. 

 

Bottom line, ignore it, those people don't have an actual argument against whatever they're complaining about. 

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On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 9:40 PM, Thegreenzzz said:

I just don’t get it, people seem to regect ideas by saying “but muh immersion” your playing a video game, I’ve never once felt that I was really there fight in Iraq or Eastern Europe.

 

someone please explain 

 I´ll try to explain how incoherent people are.

 

Same people that complain about immersion are the ones that while playing the game say things like:

 

"I´m so drunk right now..."

"sbdbha i´m eating pizza sorry SL"...

"I´m so high right now dudes!..."

"Don´t let that guy drive, He´s high!..."

"*BUUUUURRRRRPPP!!!!"...

"Who else has school tomorrow???"...

 

NO GAME,....ABSOLUTELY NO GAME.... NOT EVEN ARMA 3  CLAN GAMING SIMULATION can handle immersion being broken by people who just don´t want to be immerse, and complain about "the game not being immersive enough"...

 

I have nothing against making jokes or just chatting,...its a videogame...

I wouldnt role play like calling my SL "SIR YES SIR!"...

 

Im just pointing out one of the cause Why sometimes this game lacks immersion...and it has nothing to do with game mechanics or graphics and sound.

 

 

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On 2/22/2019 at 1:20 PM, PolishKruk said:

I don't play Squad to be immersed in combat, I play it to think and outsmart and outfight my enemy. That's where the joy comes for me personally. If I want to be immersed I'll read a book or play a good RPG.

Correct. What you're referring to is the "zing factor". Like in Chess setting up trap to make someone greedy so you can take their queen. And this is how Squad has captured part of the magic that was inherent to the Delta Force series and then partly added the additional objective based dimension of ET:QW.

 

This is why it always troubles me when I see that magic being erroded by dumbing the game down with arcade elements and homogenizing it to make it more palatable for low IQ folks that in real life can't be bothered to read owners manuals.

 

For me (and many others) the single biggest killer of immersion in Squad wasn't the off color of some tree or somebody bragging about their intoxication level it's simply the 99.999% removal of the ability to rush neutral flags at the start of the game.

 

No single act by the development team has had a greater effect on marginalizing the community and killing off any unpredictability or randomness to the way matches play out. That's the real "immersion" killer here.

 

 

 

 

 

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why would your immersion be based on whether you can rush points at the start of the round? people still do that and the rush meta is still really boring and repetitive

what a bizarre point to make

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7 hours ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

why would your immersion be based on whether you can rush points at the start of the round? people still do that and the rush meta is still really boring and repetitive

what a bizarre point to make

18 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

For me (and many others) the single biggest killer of immersion in Squad wasn't the off color of some tree or somebody bragging about their intoxication level it's simply the 99.999% removal of the ability to rush neutral flags at the start of the game.

 

I also don´t understand what rushing has to do with immersion..

 

I guess he means immersion in a differente sense... as in "being focus on doing what you have to do and not doing stupid things like crashing into some other vehicle at start just for fun".

...if that´s what he means...I also support that.

 

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immersion broken by empty map at start of every round.

zero surprises as you drive 2-7 mins with no possibility of an enemy.

 

fix the start of public match by:

  • adding forward spawns temporarily.
  • throw in a random rally for some random squads and damaged/healthy vehicle which spices up the start of the round.

eg

  1. spawn a rally next to a tank with a damaged turret. get it repaired or just leave it, up to the squad.
  2. simulate blackhawk down with a smoking chopper wreck and a rally point behind enemy lines
  3. a nice shiny techie or mrap within range of the enemies first flags.

make us pay attention from the start. currently a new map start is sandwich making time for most experienced players, we all know what will happen...

Edited by suds

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10 hours ago, Hotpokkaminny said:

why would your immersion be based on whether you can rush points at the start of the round? people still do that and the rush meta is still really boring and repetitive

what a bizarre point to make

..."bizarre points" would seem to more your forte actually:

 

"the devs are incompetent and cowardly tbh, 90% of the design changes from PR have been negative they've done well from a technical perspective but at this point I don't think this game (3 years early access btw) will ever come close to PR, hopefully modders will surprise us"

 

"kamdesh is a steaming pile of shit and the devs need to stop wasting time making forest pixel hunts (please hire a competent map designer) alternatively just port maps from PR because those are the most popular for a reason"

 

"were you the fat kids in school? physically fit people can easily jump from that height and be perfectly fine"

 

"I'm not really concerned with making friends or making sure the devs feelings are intact, this game needs more people willing to criticise it the solution is to port the maps 1:1 from PR, I'm not sure what else you think needs to be said"

 

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1 hour ago, suds said:

immersion broken by empty map at start of every round.

zero surprises as you drive 2-7 mins with no possibility of an enemy.

 

fix the start of public match by:

  • adding forward spawns temporarily.
  • throw in a random rally for some random squads and damaged/healthy vehicle which spices up the start of the round.

eg

  1. spawn a rally next to a tank with a damaged turret. get it repaired or just leave it, up to the squad.
  2. simulate blackhawk down with a smoking chopper wreck and a rally point behind enemy lines
  3. a nice shiny techie or mrap within range of the enemies first flags.

make us pay attention from the start. currently a new map start is sandwich making time for most experienced players, we all know what will happen...

^+1 

could this be done for next release so we don't have to wait for Territory Control to add variety.

 

Pub match reality

1. squad who grabs rally first:  3 man locked squad SL, marksman and other optic. Vehicle squad spawn at main

2. dies whilst complaining helo isn't flyable

3. gets flipped by the first pebble.

:):):) 

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7 hours ago, suds said:

immersion broken by empty map at start of every round.

zero surprises as you drive 2-7 mins with no possibility of an enemy.

 

fix the start of public match by:

  • adding forward spawns temporarily.
  • throw in a random rally for some random squads and damaged/healthy vehicle which spices up the start of the round.

eg

  1. spawn a rally next to a tank with a damaged turret. get it repaired or just leave it, up to the squad.
  2. simulate blackhawk down with a smoking chopper wreck and a rally point behind enemy lines
  3. a nice shiny techie or mrap within range of the enemies first flags.

make us pay attention from the start. currently a new map start is sandwich making time for most experienced players, we all know what will happen...

I know what you mean. And I would LOVE to see the things you mention implemented, and I don´t think they are hard to implement.

 

YET...

 

I don´t think that would have the consequences you expect. Even with a map with no info, there would still be rushing mechanics used by both teams, just done in different ways. Nothing of the sort would Increase the "suprise" or the immersion.

 

Even with no info at all, players would after some time, realice what are all the posible positions for a flag to be, and they will just rush those áreas. IT would be something like: Squad 1 goes to fob papanov, 2 goes to ammo hil, 3 goes to... and so on and so on.... Until they reveal a flag and then the whole team acts in consequece. I agree that I would love to see that, that changes the game TACTICS, and I´d love that, but it wouldnt affect immersion. The way you say that that "PREDICTABLE" start and development of the round affects immersion.

 

Right now the rush mechanics is so that I´ve seen entire squads disconnect after they died and couldnt take PAPANOV. I Heard the Sl say "ok, we lost...meh it was a long shot, you know how it is, ok...bye guys"....Lol...that guy would have kept playing if it had worked. That guy could´ve scouted ahead instead of rushing in, but he didnt, because it´s the reward for succeding is much more than the punishment for dying. And the same thing would happen with unkown flags.

 

With regard of the other random stuff you propose, there is another problem. It´s a balance problem. They will either be IRRELEVANT to the development of the game, OR, if they are relevant, people say the round/map is UNBALANCED. I already see experienced sls complaining about how some maps are unbalanced. 

 

This is my point, the only moment I´ve felt there ws some trully immersive gameplay, was when I played in the ONE LIFE EVENTS in PR (Havent yet played any in squad). The only way to make this game more "immersive" is to play it as if your life mattered. 

 

I´m skeptical about changes made to gameplay (other than 1life events) that can affect the immersion. It´s only in players hands and that is something I mention in a predious post.

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6 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

..."bizarre points" would seem to more your forte actually:

 

"the devs are incompetent and cowardly tbh, 90% of the design changes from PR have been negative they've done well from a technical perspective but at this point I don't think this game (3 years early access btw) will ever come close to PR, hopefully modders will surprise us"

 

"kamdesh is a steaming pile of shit and the devs need to stop wasting time making forest pixel hunts (please hire a competent map designer) alternatively just port maps from PR because those are the most popular for a reason"

 

"were you the fat kids in school? physically fit people can easily jump from that height and be perfectly fine"

 

"I'm not really concerned with making friends or making sure the devs feelings are intact, this game needs more people willing to criticise it the solution is to port the maps 1:1 from PR, I'm not sure what else you think needs to be said"

 

all those points are valid but either way have nothing to do with your

please explain how rushing enemy flags makes the game more immersive

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@Nightingale87 the best effect of having more enemies around the map would be to increase the risk of rushing.

currently there is very little risk and a reward that makes it absolutely stupid not to rush.

 

2nd best is the decreased time wasted between the start of a round and the first action. 

 

Being unbalanced is easy to tune and reacting to situations is what separates good teamwork from good players. The number of forward rallies could be a server/layer variable and the radius from flag could be another one. Lots of rules could be applied to the location and conditions around the spawn. eg ammo limitations simulating a pre-round engagement. Damage to vehicles requiring repair or abandonment. Longer range from engagement providing a fast vehicle to compensate it.

 

Disabling of and localised damage rather than destroying vehicles will be a very nice thing. Waste the ammo to destroy or leave it for potential recovery? 

This will mean that the forward squad has more tactical decisions to make.

 

next:

Automatically precap more flags.... leaving a guy to cap then waiting around in a chain of flags seems entirely pointless.

 

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On 24/2/2019 at 6:02 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

For me (and many others) the single biggest killer of immersion in Squad wasn't the off color of some tree or somebody bragging about their intoxication level it's simply the 99.999% removal of the ability to rush neutral flags at the start of the game.

 

No single act by the development team has had a greater effect on marginalizing the community and killing off any unpredictability or randomness to the way matches play out. That's the real "immersion" killer here.

I totally disagree, the dumb rush tactic almost ruined PR and damaged this game in the past limiting any strategic option. In my opinion "flag by flag" is THE game.

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2 hours ago, El Pube said:

I totally disagree, the dumb rush tactic almost ruined PR and damaged this game in the past limiting any strategic option. In my opinion "flag by flag" is THE game.

Trouble is, your linear "flag by flag" paradigm where the entire team captures each flag one by one still isn't how RAAS & AAS games play out. To this day a couple of people are dropped off at the "backcaps" whilst the bulk of both teams still drag race to whats considered the central flag whereupon the initial engagement often times determines the outcome of the match. Everyone knows this.

 

So needless to say at this point the matches are essentially still a modified "rush tactic" except that its a very predictable strategy whereas v9 anything could and did happen.

 

Its my feeling that the upcoming rumoured "fog of war" could drastically change this however so I'm looking forward to that.

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On 2/24/2019 at 7:39 AM, Nightingale87 said:

 I´ll try to explain how incoherent people are.

 

Same people that complain about immersion are the ones that while playing the game say things like:

 

"I´m so drunk right now..."

"sbdbha i´m eating pizza sorry SL"...

"I´m so high right now dudes!..."

"Don´t let that guy drive, He´s high!..."

"*BUUUUURRRRRPPP!!!!"...

"Who else has school tomorrow???"...

 

NO GAME,....ABSOLUTELY NO GAME.... NOT EVEN ARMA 3  CLAN GAMING SIMULATION can handle immersion being broken by people who just don´t want to be immerse, and complain about "the game not being immersive enough"...

 

I have nothing against making jokes or just chatting,...its a videogame...

I wouldnt role play like calling my SL "SIR YES SIR!"...

 

Im just pointing out one of the cause Why sometimes this game lacks immersion...and it has nothing to do with game mechanics or graphics and sound.

 

 

Pretty much completely agree with you. Making jokes and stuff is perfectly cool, I do it all the time, but it's usually an appropriate downtime in between fights, which ironically increases immersion imo. And yeah, the amount of times I've heard someone say there high, or when I can just tell is pretty irritating. But, the opposite is arguably worse. Out of they very few roleplayers I have encountered, most of them are just confused new players treating the game like gmod. Exaggerated emotion is what really gets annoying. The game can be INCREDIBLY immersive, in the right circumstances.

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On 2/25/2019 at 8:36 AM, suds said:

immersion broken by empty map at start of every round.

zero surprises as you drive 2-7 mins with no possibility of an enemy.

 

fix the start of public match by:

  • adding forward spawns temporarily.
  • throw in a random rally for some random squads and damaged/healthy vehicle which spices up the start of the round.

eg

  1. spawn a rally next to a tank with a damaged turret. get it repaired or just leave it, up to the squad.
  2. simulate blackhawk down with a smoking chopper wreck and a rally point behind enemy lines
  3. a nice shiny techie or mrap within range of the enemies first flags.

make us pay attention from the start. currently a new map start is sandwich making time for most experienced players, we all know what will happen...

Honestly, though, that helps immersion for me. Spending those few minutes in between fights can be a really cool experience sometimes.

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knowing where capture points are = rush ...doesnt matter whether the first flag or middle flags...its a TDM mentality not an immersive war... we fool ourselves into thinking there is some logic / tactics but in reality because its the same old every time the tactic ends up get to the flag and either defend or stop..and do it fast.

 

If we want some sort of immersive war like game then flags perhaps are not the priority.... 

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1 hour ago, embecmom said:

knowing where capture points are = rush ...doesnt matter whether the first flag or middle flags...its a TDM mentality not an immersive war... we fool ourselves into thinking there is some logic / tactics but in reality because its the same old every time the tactic ends up get to the flag and either defend or stop..and do it fast.

 

If we want some sort of immersive war like game then flags perhaps are not the priority.... 

As I understand it seems as though a small vocal minority of the community was persuasive enough to have the "rush meta" removed in order to reposition and prolong the majority of the gameplay to a centralized location so it could be played in more of an "orderly" fashion.

 

In that respect the goal has been achieved. I'm OK with that paradigm I guess however I would agree that the AAS gameplay has partially evolved into a stale repetitive TDM mentality.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

As I understand it seems as though a small vocal minority of the community was persuasive enough to have the "rush meta" removed in order to reposition and prolong the majority of the gameplay to a centralized location so it could be played in more of an "orderly" fashion.

 

In that respect the goal has been achieved. I'm OK with that paradigm I guess however I would agree that the AAS gameplay has partially evolved into a stale repetitive TDM mentality.

 

 

 

 

everyone despised the rush meta lmao you are delusional if you think it was a vocal minority

hour long games shouldn't be decided in the first 5 minutes

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2 hours ago, embecmom said:

If we want some sort of immersive war like game then flags perhaps are not the priority.... 

I think the same...

 

1 hour ago, Zylfrax791 said:

 I would agree that the AAS gameplay has partially evolved into a stale repetitive TDM mentality.

Yes. That is the flag/objective in any game. It´s a more complex TDM. Of course it´s going to be repetitive, it´s actually what people want, although they don´t know they want it and even if they argue the opposite. 

 

I´m perfectly happy with the state of the game right now. I also think it can improve. Specially by adding modes of games, instead of having a basic game mode around which to build the rest of the game.

 

Bottom line, flags, random flags, hidden flags,...all those things are cool, but THEY DO NOT AFFECT IMMERSION.

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On 26/02/2019 at 8:07 PM, Zylfrax791 said:

As I understand it seems as though a small vocal minority of the community was persuasive enough to have the "rush meta" removed in order to reposition and prolong the majority of the gameplay to a centralized location so it could be played in more of an "orderly" fashion.

 

In that respect the goal has been achieved. I'm OK with that paradigm I guess however I would agree that the AAS gameplay has partially evolved into a stale repetitive TDM mentality.

 

 

 

 

agreed I didnt like the rush myself and still dont, but its a valid tactic for the type of game thats being played but not a particularly fun one, certainly for me.   I was glad there was an attempt to slow it down but  its still not sorted however, as the rush is just to a different flag now ... hence the idea of a fog of war style gameplay is attractive.

 

Immersion wise id prefer to see a secure and hold that only allows logis from base once the team has a grip on a specific area / flag whatever just to make it even more difficult / slower on these types of maps... rather than the ability to just drive in drop a fob and build emplacements...   this would require support from other squads to bring in logis and use mechancized to support the hold rather than one squad taking the logis and a fighting vehicle and rushing the flag....  

 

The only emplacements that should be allowed would then be from the Commander air drops if thats a thing... and thats limited.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by embecmom

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what about if there would be like 15 flags on the map, every compound would have one. Then perhaps a clearer battle line would emerge and it would also be more realistic. 

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