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TR97

I was excited for the potential of this game, but may have to get a refund

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Dubs said:

OWI put little to no resources into developing Post Scriptum, as it is not their game. Post scriptum is made by Periscope games, a completely separate entity. 

Fair enough if true. But Steam says offworld industries is the publisher of Post Scriptum. 

 

However, a lot of the issues I've talked about don't merely come down to a lack of resources to put into features. So it makes the early access excuse a moot point. The problem comes more from poorly implemented features. You wouldn't need to add a tutorial or rework the UI if the UI were made with ease of access in mind from the start. 

Edited by TR97

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Posted (edited)
On 1/7/2019 at 9:35 PM, eggman said:

@TR97

 

I agree with everything you said.

 

The technical issues are transient and I assume (hope) they are addressed before the game releases out of early access.

 

The new player UX needs a lot of work. Once you get past those early barriers, it's got *tons* of potential and is, imo, just starting to come together as a game. Keep in mind the game is still in active development. I hope that over the next 6 months the team focuses on polish, optimization and new player retention as much - if not more - than adding new content.

 

I was a private beta tester for WW2OL. I ran what was considered to be the most useful new player resource for that game (a small website). I really wanted that game to "work". It never did. I realize it is still "alive" today, but when they launched that game I was like "omg, this game is at least 18 months from being a feasible public beta". It never recovered from a disastrous launch on top of a partially finished game built on an engine that was never going to have the technical capabilities the vision required.

 

Quite the opposite is true with Squad. The Steam early access program is brilliant (if not abused by cash hungry developers). The team has much inspiration in tried and tested game design from Project Reality. The Unreal Engine is a very capable game engine which technically can accomplish the vision the team has for Squad. 

 

It will take time. And, as you say, considerable effort put into the new player experience. Your first 5 minutes, 50 minutes, 5 hours, 50 hours are "milestones" along the way. My guess would be that Squad sees a lot of attrition at the <5 hour mark.

 

egg

S!

I don't think it's an accident that the one guy here who seems to agree the most with me is the one who also played WW2OL. It probably gave us some unique perspective about the importance of this issue. 

 

I know what it's like to support a game for almost a decade as it struggles along in development never fully realizing it's potential, all the while watching new players cycle through like a revolving door because the game is so opaque in it's design and interface that few stick around long enough to appreciate what it has to offer.

 

Squad was the one game out of all the ones I looked at on the market that I thought would be the closest to delivering the kind of game experience I was hoping for (merging that middle ground effectively between Insurgency and ARMA). If I didn't care about them succeeding at that then I wouldn't be posting this feedback. 

 

I also know what it's like to patiently struggle to learn a difficult game, crashing numerous simulator planes at the airfield being the first start on the road to eventually becoming an ace pilot. So the feedback you're getting from me is not from the perspective of someone who plays COD or Battlefield and just didn't have the patience or got frustrated by the difficulty. I'm relaying what a big problem this is from the perspective of someone who has been there and done that with other games numerous times already, so I am acutely aware of what pitfalls this game should not repeat. 

 

I would best compare it to someone who has played a lot of MMORPG games. It's amazing the amount of crap, timesinks, and bad design you're willing to put up with on your first MMO. The more you play, the less crap you're willing to put up with on repeat encounters. Eventually you start actively looking for the games that have solved the problems you don't like in past games. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by TR97

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19 hours ago, embecmom said:

Ive got Red Orchestra and played a lot of insurgency, they dont particularly hold the hand of the new player either, infact they can be even tougher due to the one shot kill and the faster pace. 

You don't understand what the issues are if you think we're talking about the difficulty level of the combat. 

 

Insurgency has very straitforward and easy to pick up UI and game mechanics. 
You select weapon, you spawn, you see points A,B,C hovering over your screen as part of the UI. 

You run towards them.

Combat happens. 

Repeat until match ends. 

 

It could be better, but it's actually good enough for how simple the game itself is.

 

A more complex game like Squad demands a more robust and well thought out UI, with game mechanics being designed with ease of access in mind.

 

 

 the game is not that hard to pick up, look on the internet there are plenty of resources, 

If you have to look on the internet to understand how the game is suppose to work your UI and game design have already failed.

 

The gameplay problem you describe regarding the spawn is a problem for all players not just new ones, its a pia and needs sorted, Ive got more hours than I should in the game and still find myself back at main when Ive never selected main.

 

Now you're acknowledging to me what others here haven't, that what I experienced is not isolated and not merely the result of not knowing the game enough? 

See, that's part of what I was concerned about. 

If my average experience playing this game would involve me having to hoof it in from the rear base because there are no forward bases active, or for some reason not being able to spawn at them, then the game design is not functioning properly and changes are needed. That isn't a game I would have fun playing consistently. I did it enough with WW2OL to know it's a flawed design because your ratio of travel to combat is too high, resulting in inconsistent frontlines with not enough players on them. 

And that design is not going to win over trial players.

 

One thing however regarding gameplay, it sounds like you pretty much soloing .....Your instructions and objectives should be set by your squad lead,

 

This is where part of either the UI or the design has failed.

I had nothing like that going on. I was part of a squad but no guidance was given either by players or by the UI.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it didn't happen with me; and if it's not happening with regularity then you have to consider what that is doing to new players. 

 

It's not the community's fault for not stepping up more by being more proactive with leading in-game. The design is what has failed to address this properly. The buck stops with the development. 

 

I had the same issues with Post Scriptum and refunded that 3 times! Its improved greatly and now playing it more than squad these days.  



Yikes. At least I'm not the only one who felt like refunding. 

You know this would be the first time I ever got a refund on a game.

The combined issues I had were bad enough that I was seriously thinking to myself I don't know if I would be able to keep playing this, or if I would want to.

It's rare that I ever think that way about a game to the point where I figure I'd be better off getting a refund as opposed to just letting it sit in my library on the chance maybe I'll want to pick it up and play it later. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TR97 said:

Fair enough if true. But Steam says offworld industries is the publisher of Post Scriptum. 

 

However, a lot of the issues I've talked about don't merely come down to a lack of resources to put into features. So it makes the early access excuse a moot point. The problem comes more from poorly implemented features. You wouldn't need to add a tutorial or rework the UI if the UI were made with ease of access in mind from the start. 

As I pointed out in my previous reply, they are the publishers of Post Scriptum - Due to the deal they made with Periscope games, to use OWI's core AKA the framework for all their systems in Squad. OWI as publishers helped with marketing a bit, like giving free post scriptum standard edition keys, to all Squad founders(People who backed Squad in pre-alpha/closed alpha phases). 

There was about 2 - 3 years worth of development of Post Scriptum before this deal occurred, using Squads free SDK. Making their own assets/art etc using their money from their own pocket, as they were modders at the time and PS was aimed to be a mod for Squad. Here's their original thread on these forums announcing their mod http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/22414-post-scriptum-the-bloody-seventh/

UI has changed multiple times throughout Squads development, the current UI is more complex compared to it's previous builds, that is truue - With more menu's/tabs, but we can expect further refinement as Squad develops further.

Squad has a lot of systems that are constantly changing, a long with new systems/features being added. Once we near feature complete, when all systems & mechanics are basically in their final iteration - we can expect major optimization and refinement to be done, before Beta and Full 1.0 release.

 

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3 hours ago, TR97 said:

You cannot expect to lean on the community as a crutch for a lack of a sufficiently intuitive interface and game design.

You've put a whole lot more effort into your forum posts than you have reading the text that greets you when you join a server.

It tells you what you need to do. I dislike the UI but it still works.

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5 hours ago, TR97 said:

That doesn't work as an excuse when the devs put development resources into a second game (post scriptum) while their first game is still technically in early release phase after 3 years.

 

I don't fault them for trying to inject some more cash into their company with a new release, but let's not pretend Squad still deserves to have the early access excuse by this point for failing to have certain basic necessities taken care of. 

What Dubs said:

4 hours ago, Dubs said:

OWI put little to no resources into developing Post Scriptum, as it is not their game. Post scriptum is made by Periscope games, a completely separate entity. The guys at periscope games were originally modders, making a WW2 mod for Squad, but then decided they wanted to make it a complete standalone title - A deal was made between OWI & Periscope, to give access to the full Squad framework to Periscope games, to allow them to use OWI/Squads core systems to build their game. OWI was only the publishing company for PS.

There's a priority ladder, some thing just sit lower than others. It's how development works. EA excuse is still valid for OWI, it's not like Squad is like the 90% of EA games that come out broken, then every patch after breaks the game more. OWI take their time, and give quality over quantity - The old school way of developing games. Not the new school way of cash grabs, and spewing as much broken patches out as possible.

Seriously tho, just look at Rust, how long has that been in early access?

Games of similar size and scope to Squad usually have hundreds of people working on them in AAA companies (Battlefield and stuff). A development team of around 40 is incredibly small for the scope they want to go with.

People giving Squad shit for being in EA for so long should really wonder why there are never any alpha versions available for the public to play or see with most AAA games, usually they make a polished demo and disguise that as the "alpha" version for the public to see.

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4 hours ago, TR97 said:

You don't understand what the issues are if you think we're talking about the difficulty level of the combat. 

 

Insurgency has very straitforward and easy to pick up UI and game mechanics. 
You select weapon, you spawn, you see points A,B,C hovering over your screen as part of the UI. 

You run towards them.

Combat happens. 

Repeat until match ends. 

 

It could be better, but it's actually good enough for how simple the game itself is.

 

A more complex game like Squad demands a more robust and well thought out UI, with game mechanics being designed with ease of access in mind.

 

 

 

 

If you have to look on the internet to understand how the game is suppose to work your UI and game design have already failed.

I did actually agree with you and yes I do know, and agreed if your used to playing the spawn rinse repeat that requires less brain cells type of game then Squad is going to be taxing for new players.

4 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

 

 

 

Now you're acknowledging to me what others here haven't, that what I experienced is not isolated and not merely the result of not knowing the game enough? 

See, that's part of what I was concerned about. 

This was a new spawn mechanic for the new UI in v12, it worked better previously so hopefully they will look at it. 

4 hours ago, TR97 said:

If my average experience playing this game would involve me having to hoof it in from the rear base because there are no forward bases active, or for some reason not being able to spawn at them, then the game design is not functioning properly and changes are needed. That isn't a game I would have fun playing consistently. I did it enough with WW2OL to know it's a flawed design because your ratio of travel to combat is too high, resulting in inconsistent frontlines with not enough players on them. 

And that design is not going to win over trial players.

Again your lack of understanding of the game (hence your post) has led you to a conclusion that the game is not functioning properly because there is no FOB, this is the fault of the teamwork of  your team and nothing else, FOBs need built, if no one is doing that, or they are destroyed then you will spawn back at main. Plus your SL should be placing a rally.

4 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

 

 

 

This is where part of either the UI or the design has failed.

I had nothing like that going on. I was part of a squad but no guidance was given either by players or by the UI.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it didn't happen with me; and if it's not happening with regularity then you have to consider what that is doing to new players. 

 

It's not the community's fault for not stepping up more by being more proactive with leading in-game. The design is what has failed to address this properly. The buck stops with the development. 

The UI can only do so much, I think its a bit of a mess but the UI is not there to teach you the game, (in settings you can turn on hints) but to provide information during the course of the round, lessons should be done in a training scenario.     And if you are with a decent SL then your experience would be different, and I do think the community should step up in game for new players, if not we end up with the very thing you posted about and in part thats the communities fault or certainly the guys you were playing with.

4 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

 

 

Yikes. At least I'm not the only one who felt like refunding. 

You know this would be the first time I ever got a refund on a game.

The combined issues I had were bad enough that I was seriously thinking to myself I don't know if I would be able to keep playing this, or if I would want to.

It's rare that I ever think that way about a game to the point where I figure I'd be better off getting a refund as opposed to just letting it sit in my library on the chance maybe I'll want to pick it up and play it later. 

 

 

note it was not squad I was refunding but post scriptum which was built on the squad engine... I have been with squad since it came to steam and I advocate the community helping new players, because it is a small community with a great game and I hate that others wont help or when they sl they stay silent.   First thing I do if an SL is quiet is get onto admin and start pressuring them to SL, pass it on or leave... or better yet move to another squad.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Rybec said:

You've put a whole lot more effort into your forum posts than you have reading the text that greets you when you join a server.

It tells you what you need to do. I dislike the UI but it still works.

Agreed. Seemingly has intimate knowledge of the entire game development process ergo Agile vs. Waterfall yet is unable to comprehend a simple FPS game with modes and a similar interface that has previously been in many other titles. Odd.

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Let's also remember that this OWI, for all their respective experiences, are going through this for what is the first time, in effect. Criticism is fine, provided it's constructive, but I find that it always works best when put in a context of realism and pragmatism.

I do agree that it would be ideal for all games to be accessible and so on, but also recognise that priorities change, vary and that learning happens throughout processes in terms of where resources are put. I honestly do believe that the majority of the squad players who will stay on and really form the game's longer term are those who don't mind, at all, the process of doing exactly what you've said in terms of leaning on the community initially or guides in order to become well-versed. Don't mistake me - I fully acknowledge that in an ideal world, what you want to exist would exist, on top of everything else, and would probably have existed earlier in development, alpha or not - as this would have maximised new player engagement and purchases.  I just honestly never felt the way you do about the game, and for whatever reasons, my expectations are different. I don't mind having to invest , deliberately, in a game like this. I am sure not everyone is, and that's fine, and that's something I'm sure OWI will learn from. Maybe it's generational. But I do believe I am in the majority for a game of this nature. This is an explanatory comment, not a disagreement. I just think that, to be honest, the extent of the criticism you make may be somewhat disproportionate to the impact of the issues you outline, if that makes sense. Anyway - I for one hope you do invest and stick about, because it really can provide a lot of great gameplay, and does sit in a space I haven't found other things to do.

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Posted (edited)

There is only so much the UI and community combined can do, in the end it is the player's mindset on a new game they don't know that determines wether a game is for him or not. If you come to Squad with a mindset of just picking it up and instantly start shooting then prepare to be dissapointed. Squad is not Battlefield after all, there is way more to the gameplay, and it all opens up to new players as they learn more by simply just playing. At the start when joining a squad, just say you're new, 80% of all players will explain stuff if you just simply ask them, if they don't find a better squad, or server (some servers have much better communities than others).

The whole point with Squad is the community working together, it's more than just a shooter, it's pretty much a social game. The UI does need improvements, but that's fine, they released V12 not that long ago, so the UI is still new and a lot of changes can happen in early access.

 

Anyways, refunding the game is fine, you can always come back to it when it's fully complete and out of beta.

Edited by Guan_Yu007

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1 hour ago, Guan_Yu007 said:

The UI does need improvements, but that's fine, they released V12 not that long ago, so the UI is still new and a lot of changes can happen in early access.

I would politely disagree. I think this latest UI is probably one the best, if not the best in the entire genre.

 

First off, the main page has a simplistic menu bar across the top and all the various pages it takes you to are clean & efficient plus the sweeping animated background gives the user interesting visual feedback.

 

Secondly, the server browsers display just the right amount of information and are sortable. Game Settings and Firing Range are easily accessible as well.

 

Thirdly, the team selection page is simple and then the role and squad selection page reminds me of the original Ghost Recon menu and is quite intuitive.

 

In conclusion, the tab menu is fine and the maps show you everything plus have their own menu bar with explanations. It couldn't get any simpler than the clean elegant UI of Squad. Its like all the best attributes of Delta Force, Ghost Recon and Battlefield were all combined.

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14 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

I would politely disagree. I think this latest UI is probably one the best, if not the best in the entire genre.

Didn't say it was bad, i love the new UI and it's definitely better than V11, but it's not perfect yet.

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Some great discussion triggered here :)

 

Some of the mindsents from the community and, to some extent the developers, originate from this idea of a niche game for a niche community. That might be OK when we are talking about Project Reality as a mod made for free by people working for free. My tolerance for a poorly engineered user experience is much higher when dealing with a free mod vs something represented as an independent game (which is competing with AAA games for my time).

 

Squad and OWI are for profit businesses. I am absolutely of the belief that you can make a tactically rich, socially centric, teamplay driven, combined arms FPS that will appeal to a large (3 million +) player base. Squad, while still early access, has a lot of work to be done on new player retention.

 

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It is also a fact that UX is heavily dependent on players and how they play. Especially on Squadleaders. Ist a nature of Squad. Not sure if or how you want to change that.
We do have to organize and built our own Spawnpoints, get all the supplies there, keep on supplying and adapt if something changes on the objectives (which is the part where it often fails).
From my exp it doesnt really matter for a good game if you win the middle flag or even lose the second flag aslong those basic spawnmechanics are well organised  and always taken care of.
I mean normally if you handle this than it is enough for you to win the game when playing public.
But its also mostly the deciding factor if you feel you got a good or bad game.
 
How to improve new Player UX im not too sure. Maybe more useful tooltips on more topics. Especially on Game Mode and game mechanics like RPs, FOBs, and active or non active Flags.

But imo there are right now enough tweaks neccecary for improving normal/veteran UX:

- 2 Man disabling the HAB by vicinity is simply "($/='*****" !!! every meatgrinder was better. Solution could be either a percentage instead of just 2 or you switch back to the old way and additionally let SLs disable/enable the HAB in Command Menu. This way SLs could also channel the stream of "BlueBerrys" which if done correctly would also improve UX in general. However, right now Its just to simple to take one down for the amount of effort you have to put in a FOB.
 
also regarding FOBs.
- with persistent ammo you shouldnt lose all ammo when changing to a different kit. Just give the points back you got!
- replacement of emplacements, especially with the TOW should be possible without losing all the CPs
- SLs should be able to disable a (hostile or friendly) FOB alone manually like we could once with our own radio.
 
- vehicle flipping (i understand there should be punishment for driving recklessly but the PhsX dont allow such a harsh way)
Edited by gshAT

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17 hours ago, eggman said:

 

Squad and OWI are for profit businesses. I am absolutely of the belief that you can make a tactically rich, socially centric, teamplay driven, combined arms FPS that will appeal to a large (3 million +) player base. Squad, while still early access, has a lot of work to be done on new player retention.

 

Agreed. It's all about retention. Squad already is the great game you describe with steamspy estimates between 500,000 to a million key holders however with daily peaks back under 2000. That's an astounding differential.

 

As to why the lack of retention has occurred your guess is as good as mine but if I had to speculate about the main reason I'd say it's the fact that there has never been a predictable & stable corporate vanilla server experience for new players. Instead, it's always been an inconsistent franchise system filled with multifaceted negativity such as supplemental rule sets, team stacking, cronyism and overbearing moderation that has driven many new people away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Zylfrax791 said:

Agreed. It's all about retention. Squad already is the great game you describe with steamspy estimates between 500,000 to a million key holders however with daily peaks back under 2000. That's an astounding differential.

 

As to why the lack of retention has occurred your guess is as good as mine but if I had to speculate about the main reason I'd say it's the fact that there has never been a predictable & stable corporate vanilla server experience for new players. Instead, it's always been an inconsistent franchise system filled with multifaceted negativity such as supplemental rule sets, team stacking, cronyism and overbearing moderation that has driven many new people away.

 

It's probably the same reason for poor retention with WW2OL. Difficulty of entry into the game combined with poor consistency of the gameplay itself. 

 

Poor consistency is always the fault of the design itself, as it shows a failure to channel players towards the experience that is desired. 

 

Sandbox games by definition don't provide consistency and are entirely dependent on the players to generate the experience. But a game like Squad is not intended to be a sandbox game because it tries to funnel people towards a certain experience - it just does a poor job at that due to both the design and the UI. Nor would you ever want to play a game that is a mil sim that was a sandbox because a mil sim is gameplay driven and skill based in it's nature. It's not like a sandbox RPG that is story driven and often not even skill based. 


That's why everyone here who tries to use the playerbase as a crutch for a lack of sound design and UI is shooting the game in the foot because it's not a sandbox game and can't be expected to rely on the quality of player interactions to make it functional in the absense of a sound design. 

On 1/9/2019 at 12:33 AM, Rybec said:

 I dislike the UI but it still works.

Merely repeating your claim, without justifying that claim, doesn't make it true.

Everything I already said to you still applies, and you haven't countered any of it. 

 

Don't be guilty of the same bullshit the World War 2 online community fell into of trying to tell all the droves of players who had trouble with the game that it was there fault for not trying hard enough to find a squad to work with because the UI and game design was completely inadequate at doing it's job.

 

That kind of pride and arrogance won't result in Squad becoming the game it needs to be.

 

Edited by TR97

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:30 AM, embecmom said:

Again your lack of understanding of the game (hence your post) has led you to a conclusion that the game is not functioning properly because there is no FOB,

 

Logical fallacy, strawman.

That was never my conclusion or the point of my post.

 

Quote

 Plus your SL should be placing a rally.

 

There's a lot the Squad leaders aren't doing. That's the problem.

 

It is the fault of the game and UI design that makes it unable to function smoothly, and you're blaming the squad leader as a crutch. When the fact is most squad leaders aren't living up to this mythical standard of what you expect to be happening. And even if they were, the shitty UI is not going to do anything to actually ease players into understanding what they are suppose to do to start working with this superhuman tactical genius who can whip players into order and is ready to give them orders and answer every question they have about the game while in combat. From the forum you would think these mythical creatures populate every server in abundance and they can't imagine why every new player isn't tripping over themselves to be a part of this non-experience. 

 

Quote

The UI can only do so much, I think its a bit of a mess but the UI is not there to teach you the game. And if you are with a decent SL then your experience would be different

 

 

 

 

The UI can only do as much as you are competent as making it do.

A bad UI can't do much.

A smartly engineered game design combined with a smartly engineered UI can perform miracles.


These aspects of the game are what shape player behavior. Knowing how to shape player behavior and therefore craft player experiences to be what your goal is, is what separates good game design from mediocre. 

 

If you don't think half these problems can be solved with better UI and design then you've already lost the battle and may as well close up shop. You're not capable of engineering solutions if you've already decided it's impossible so you're just going to blame the players for not putting in enough effort, or blame the squad leaders for not crutching hard enough for your poor designs. 

Quote

, and I do think the community should step up in game for new players, if not we end up with the very thing you posted about and in part thats the communities fault or certainly the guys you were playing with.

WW2OL's community did step up. 

What I'm trying to help you guys understand is that stepping up doesn't solve the problem and no amount of using player interaction as a crutch for bad design will ever gloss over the problem enough to make the game's growth viable. 

At the end of the day, no matter how hard you try, the players cannot replace proper game and UI design. 

 

 

Edited by TR97

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:40 AM, Zylfrax791 said:

I would politely disagree. I think this latest UI is probably one the best, if not the best in the entire genre.

 

If it were then they wouldn't need to link videos and wiki pages for new players to integrate into experiencing the game. 

 

How many people tried this game and left early because they had experiences similar to mine? 

 

For everyone person like me who points out this as a problem, how many people never actually bothered to say anything but just silently uninstalled?

 

You're perfectly entitled to your politely expressed opinion, of which I have no problem; but let's be real here. Something is not working right with the game if it has so many installs yet so few playing it. 

 

I'm trying to help you guys understand why that is and some of the people here aren't doing the game any favors by denying it's a problem just because they personally don't feel they have a problem with it. 

 

At least the Devs acknowledged they are working on it. So my comment isn't directed at them. But the players who seem to want to blame other players, or deny the experience other players are dealing with, is an attitude that isn't going to help grow the game.

 

 

 

Edited by TR97

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On 1/11/2019 at 2:44 PM, eggman said:

Some great discussion triggered here :)

 

Some of the mindsents from the community and, to some extent the developers, originate from this idea of a niche game for a niche community. That might be OK when we are talking about Project Reality as a mod made for free by people working for free. My tolerance for a poorly engineered user experience is much higher when dealing with a free mod vs something represented as an independent game (which is competing with AAA games for my time).

 

Squad and OWI are for profit businesses. I am absolutely of the belief that you can make a tactically rich, socially centric, teamplay driven, combined arms FPS that will appeal to a large (3 million +) player base. Squad, while still early access, has a lot of work to be done on new player retention.

 

WW2OL kind of shot themselves in the foot with the same mentality. 

 

To some extent, yes, there is always going to be a demographic barrier wherein a game like that simply won't appeal to everyone.

However, there were a ton of people who would have liked playing the game if only it's execution had been better in terms of game design and a UI that provided more consistency to the player's experience as well as aided new players into finding that quality experience quicker and easier. 

 

WW2OL I think at some point let their own self talk about how niche the game was lead them to believe it just couldn't appeal to anyone but the most hardcore. When, in reality, it was because the design/UI was so poorly engineered that it forced out every potential customer who wasn't absolutely so hardcore about wanting the game to work that they were willing to push through all the crap to make it work. 

 

I think that belief may have steered them away from understanding that fixing the game with consistency and new player experience in mind was far more important than the amount of attention it ended up getting.

Edited by TR97

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Regarding player retention:
Besides all things that could be made better, more appealing or whatever i think another big reason just is that Squad isnt for everyone. I "sold" Squad to a dozen of friends which actually dont really play it. They all play CS:GO (even on global), PubG and even Battlefield. Not because they are too stupid for squad but because they like different playstyle. Squad is slow paced. Really slow paced compared to the others. Some might say even boring. Why still so many have bought it but not play it might be due to the good reviews, reputation and the kinda cheap price during regular sales.

Regarding the UI:
- First Person UI:
Its actually a very clean design. There is nothing but the real basics you need.
Stance, Stamina, Equipment and Ammo and the Compass.
The bleeding indicator might feel a little unresponsive for new players though.
 
- Map/Command/Deployment UI:
Its actually a well thought out design which still needs some tweaks to be handled smoothly.
Problems with handling it from a new user and from veteran point of view:
 
 - Squad Selection:
Maybe there should be a warning or some form of indicator (or even a popup i can disable in options) if you are entering a Squad or if you already are in a Squad which doesnt have a SL with a proper SL Kit. (Thats often where rounds start to fail at the beginning)
 
 - Role Selection:
It feels very unresponsive if you select a Role which isnt available anymore. You just cant spawn and dont get any response. That definitley could be made better.
 
 - Deployment: That sometimes feels a little bit Tricky. Maybe you could center the map over the selected Spawnpoint. Its sometimes hard to find the only white Spawnpoint on the Map. Maybe switch yellow and white. Intuitivley i would say the coloured Spawn should be the selected one.

 - Map:

The Map is in my oppinion the real problem. First of all there is no topographic map which feels kinda odd given that squad is supposed to be a military shooter. I still have problems reading the map for hills and valleys. Another problem when SLing is that you cant delete markers when they are placed beneath/above an object or on a flag. A friendly FOB marker placed on the flag layer will always stay there. No chance to clean the map. Horrible. Another Problem is that an inactive FOB has the same colour as the enemy FOB marker. Yesterday someone shoveled the FOB down because it was red on the Map (even though he spawned there probably. atleast he was checking the map to see if its hostile or not)

 

For new players maybe you could do 4 step procedure like we go through when selecting a team which ppl can disable in options.
select team
select squad
select role
select spawnpoint
everything on a seperate page

 

2 hours ago, TR97 said:

You're perfectly entitled to your politely expressed opinion, of which I have no problem; but let's be real here. Something is not working right with the game if it has so many installs yet so few playing it. 

Since you are putting effort in this Topic I would really like to start to hear some concrete issues besides squad (UI) is unintuitive. And maybe even a suggestion of what exactly to add/Change.

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Yes, seconded about the suggestions part. 

 

Also, I still think multiplayer games of scale DO inherently rely on players for quality of experience to some extent, and the more involved a game, the more that's the case,  regardless of UI or anything else.  I think you have made some valid points but risk undermining them by becoming totally entrenched in a position regardless of a what others say. UI can break a game to a degree and make a big difference in accessibility and retention... but it can't force, only encourage, people to engage as intended where they have any agency. To suggest otherwise is simply wrong. A good number of players would play Squad with a far worse interface etc.. precisely because it does many things very well indeed. Yet as above, this type of game simply isn't for everyone, and won't be, no matter what. I do recognise that minimising player alienation, even for the number that absolutely would engage but are put off, can only be a positive. But the UI isn't the only factor. 

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9 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

Logical fallacy, strawman.

That was never my conclusion or the point of my post.

may not have been but clearly how it reads.

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

 

There's a lot the Squad leaders aren't doing. That's the problem.

 

It is the fault of the game and UI design that makes it unable to function smoothly, and you're blaming the squad leader as a crutch. When the fact is most squad leaders aren't living up to this mythical standard of what you expect to be happening.

Eh? so a squad leader is not placing a rally nor leading a squad  and you blame the UI?  honestly I think your now just making it up as you go along just for arguments sake. 

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

And even if they were, the shitty UI is not going to do anything to actually ease players into understanding what they are suppose to do to start working with this superhuman tactical genius who can whip players into order and is ready to give them orders and answer every question they have about the game while in combat. From the forum you would think these mythical creatures populate every server in abundance and they can't imagine why every new player isn't tripping over themselves to be a part of this non-experience. 

 

 

The UI can only do as much as you are competent as making it do.

A bad UI can't do much.

A smartly engineered game design combined with a smartly engineered UI can perform miracles.


These aspects of the game are what shape player behavior. Knowing how to shape player behavior and therefore craft player experiences to be what your goal is, is what separates good game design from mediocre. 

I think you want to play at UI using rather than a military sim ... a UI should compliment the players ability to play the game not become the force by which the player has to play the game, a players behaviour in this type of game should never be dictated by the UI, it is dictated by the situation they find themelves in on the ground. 

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

If you don't think half these problems can be solved with better UI and design then you've already lost the battle and may as well close up shop.

what problems?  you just say the UI is crap but offer nothing in return?  There is one problem and that is the spawning back at main... the others you talk about are not UI issues.

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

 

You're not capable of engineering solutions if you've already decided it's impossible so you're just going to blame the players for not putting in enough effort, or blame the squad leaders for not crutching hard enough for your poor designs. 

youve lost me... you say there are no fobs... blaming the UI for some reason... where its the players responsibility to place fobs/rallies etc... why is that the UI problem and not the players?  The UI cant place the rally/fob on the players behalf so pray tell how its not the players fault.

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

WW2OL's community did step up. 

What I'm trying to help you guys understand is that stepping up doesn't solve the problem and no amount of using player interaction as a crutch for bad design will ever gloss over the problem enough to make the game's growth viable. 

You are just complaining and not offering anything.

9 hours ago, TR97 said:

At the end of the day, no matter how hard you try, the players cannot replace proper game and UI design. 

 

 

sigh....  

 

 

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6 hours ago, gshAT said:
- First Person UI:
Its actually a very clean design. There is nothing but the real basics you need.
Stance, Stamina, Equipment and Ammo and the Compass.
The bleeding indicator might feel a little unresponsive for new players though.

+1 Bleed indicator is not very usefull, --> stronger onscreen bleedeffect (PR) getting wors if there is nearly no LP left.

 

6 hours ago, gshAT said:
- Squad Selection:
Maybe there should be a warning or some form of indicator (or even a popup i can disable in options) if you are entering a Squad or if you already are in a Squad which doesnt have a SL with a proper SL Kit. (Thats often where rounds start to fail at the beginning)

Another point confused me a bit at the beginning: if you join a Squad it moved to the first position, i would apriciate if the order stays. It is already the one that is tainted Green instead of blue and the dropdown extended.

 

6 hours ago, gshAT said:
 - Role Selection:
It feels very unresponsive if you select a Role which isnt available anymore. You just cant spawn and dont get any response. That definitley could be made better.

+1

The reasoning why i cant take this or that specific Kit is not to clear for me sometimes.

And the subdivision between Command and Support, Squad Roles, Fire Support Roles is strange.

I think Squad Roles(SL,Rifle,Medic,LMG,GL,AT), Spezialised Roles(Team restricted(GPMG,DM,HAT), Crewman(LC,C) would be better. And using the Dropdown to change Scope/Kitlayout/[etc...] and placing the team restricted Kits under those Squadkits they replace(GPMG under LMG, DM under GL[?], HAT under AT)

 

6 hours ago, gshAT said:

 - Deployment: That sometimes feels a little bit Tricky. Maybe you could center the map over the selected Spawnpoint. Its sometimes hard to find the only white Spawnpoint on the Map. Maybe switch yellow and white. Intuitivley i would say the coloured Spawn should be the selected one.

+1 the white is sometimes hard to recognise if there are many other empty emplacements or vehicles nearby.

atm if i end up at the wrong place i dont know if it was a bug or a ****up on my part.

Centering the map and changing the colors to green with a red animated bracket around would help.

 

6 hours ago, gshAT said:
- Map:

The Map is in my oppinion the real problem. First of all there is no topographic map which feels kinda odd given that squad is supposed to be a military shooter. I still have problems reading the map for hills and valleys. Another problem when SLing is that you cant delete markers when they are placed beneath/above an object or on a flag. A friendly FOB marker placed on the flag layer will always stay there. No chance to clean the map. Horrible. Another Problem is that an inactive FOB has the same colour as the enemy FOB marker. Yesterday someone shoveled the FOB down because it was red on the Map (even though he spawned there probably. atleast he was checking the map to see if its hostile or not

+1

And i find it hard to see where my FTL is at (or as SL find my FTLs).

Also  it would be nice, if you select a Squad in command map the all the Squadmember would be highlighted.

 

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